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#31
28th December 2012
Old 28th December 2012
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spice house View Post
think long and hard about why this would be the result
concise & informative
#32
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
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anyone ionize their cables? old eric johnson trick... i use redco cabling. its cheapish and seems fine.
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#33
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
  #33
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One "gotcha" that hasn't been mentioned...

Gold connectors are generally not good on cables that are frequently plugged/unplugged.

"Gold" connectors are not solid gold. They just have gold plating over some other material.

Problem is...gold is a fairly soft metal, and the layer of gold is fairly thin. Plugging/unplugging these cable will wear off the gold plating, and you've lost any advantages you might have gained from the gold.

Personally, I don't buy cheap cables...neither do I buy expensive ones. I buy cables at a level of quality dictated by the application.

Now I know that there are people out there who can hear an ant fart from 100 miles away, but most of us aren't so blessed/cursed. And unless you fit into that category, if a cable makes a night-and-day difference in your studio, there's probably more amiss than just a cable...
#34
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spice house View Post
think long and hard about why this would be the result
Oh, I'm quite aware of why it's the result. Because the sounds passed through the $100 cable and the $15 cable are exactly, scientifically and sonically identical.

That's how a null test works.
#35
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
  #35
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It never ceases to amaze me the amount of people that say cables make no difference.
Set up a test where u can replicate the exact same sound.
Record it using an expensive cable.
Record it using an inexpensive cable.
Loop both side by side, then do a blindfold test.
Did this with my gf who is not a musician/engineer & 10/10 times she could A) tell a difference B) say which one sounded better. Yip, the expensive cable.

My hearing is a lot better than hers,in that I have far more high end range, & she could still spot the difference.

It's like having an opinion on car tyres. You can't say expensive ones aren't better till you have done a test recreating the exact same conditions.

everyone is so eager to accept that the visual world is moving forward in leaps and bounds, but to suggest that you can improve your sound by using better cables OMG, that's insane.

Sound quality is getting better,it's a fact. You might like the sound of a cassette tape, but you can't argue the quality of sound is improving within technology.

Do this:

play 2 or 3 chords & notes on your keyboard. Send in via midi & record a loop.
Then send midi notes out to trigger a piano sample.
Use both test cables to record, use balanced & unbalanced.
Use meters to compare if you trust your eyes more.
Listen.
Express your opinion.

I was sceptical that expensive cables made a difference till I actually took the time to do an an accurate test.

it puts a smile on your face when you hear the difference.

most people who say it makes no difference have never taken the time of day to do a test recreating the exact same source.

Yes it won't win you a Grammy, but all the small percentages add up.
#36
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlierokit View Post
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of people that say cables make no difference.
Set up a test where u can replicate the exact same sound.
Record it using an expensive cable.
Record it using an inexpensive cable.
Loop both side by side, then do a blindfold test.
Did this with my gf who is not a musician/engineer & 10/10 times she could A) tell a difference B) say which one sounded better. Yip, the expensive cable.

My hearing is a lot better than hers,in that I have far more high end range, & she could still spot the difference.

It's like having an opinion on car tyres. You can't say expensive ones aren't better till you have done a test recreating the exact same conditions.

everyone is so eager to accept that the visual world is moving forward in leaps and bounds, but to suggest that you can improve your sound by using better cables OMG, that's insane.

Sound quality is getting better,it's a fact. You might like the sound of a cassette tape, but you can't argue the quality of sound is improving within technology.

Do this:

play 2 or 3 chords & notes on your keyboard. Send in via midi & record a loop.
Then send midi notes out to trigger a piano sample.
Use both test cables to record, use balanced & unbalanced.
Use meters to compare if you trust your eyes more.
Listen.
Express your opinion.

I was sceptical that expensive cables made a difference till I actually took the time to do an an accurate test.

it puts a smile on your face when you hear the difference.

most people who say it makes no difference have never taken the time of day to do a test recreating the exact same source.

Yes it won't win you a Grammy, but all the small percentages add up.
I'm not at all suggesting there aren't two cables that sound different from each other out there.

But you do understand a null test right? Same audio, looped through two cables, one Mogami Gold, one middle of the road generic. You play back both clips simultaneously and flip the polarity on one. If you get complete silence, the two sounds are identical. No opinions are even relevant. They're the exact same signal.

I can't claim this applies to every cable, but in this case, there's nothing to have an opinion on. The two cables transmitted the EXACT same signal, or you wouldn't get a null.

I do think expensive cables have a lot to reccomend them as far as durability/reliability. But when Mogami Gold nulls with my cheaper cables, they factually do not sound different. There's nothing to argue about in this case. They null.
#37
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spice house View Post
hhahaha no think about it
Dont have time. You're not saying anything. Enjoy your magic cables. May they serve you well.
#38
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
Dont have time. You're not saying anything. Enjoy your magic cables. May they serve you well.
Fair point. Then try compare another cable.
There are many ways to skin a cat, just like there are many ways to make an audio cable.

The most important thing in my opinion is that the cables are transparent,that they don't accentuate the high end,lose bottom end, or colour the sound.

If you compared 2 cables that have the same characteristics, ie both transparent, that's great.
But if you get the same result with various cables then i would be very surprised, as I've never had that result.

Try different sources too.
If your signal is midrange, sure both cables might sound identical.
But did you test the bottom & high end? Same result?

As for durability. Mogami cables are the easiest to solder, but by no means are they the most durable.
In fact their studio multiways are the flimsiest & weakest I have come across.
So for durability they don't score high in my books.
But for transparency & flexibility, one of the best.
#39
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlierokit View Post
Fair point. Then try compare another cable.
There are many ways to skin a cat, just like there are many ways to make an audio cable.

The most important thing in my opinion is that the cables are transparent,that they don't accentuate the high end,lose bottom end, or colour the sound.

If you compared 2 cables that have the same characteristics, ie both transparent, that's great.
But if you get the same result with various cables then i would be very surprised, as I've never had that result.

Try different sources too.
If your signal is midrange, sure both cables might sound identical.
But did you test the bottom & high end? Same result?

As for durability. Mogami cables are the easiest to solder, but by no means are they the most durable.
In fact their studio multiways are the flimsiest & weakest I have come across.
So for durability they don't score high in my books.
But for transparency & flexibility, one of the best.
I was running full mixes through the cables (Black Keys "Everlasting Light" to be exact). Very much a full spectrum signal.

And again, I can't talk about differences in cables I haven't used. It's just that there is so much rampant superstition out there. When I returned the Mogami's, and told the salesman about the null tests I'd run, the salesman, obviously having no idea what the ramifications of a null test were, said "yeah, the Mogami's are just a little tighter and the lows and maybe a little more open in the highs. Not everyone can notice it but I think it's night and day." Classic. Total null and they're still saying this B.S.
I guess their job is to sell cables. But still, THEY NULLED. If someone's gonna spew dogma about cables being "more open" or whatever, they should at least know what a null test is.
#40
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
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I think people hear that say there's no difference have never sat down and actually done a comparison test. There's an obvious difference in using high end cables. Don't believe me? Ask any high end studio why there all wired with either Mogami or Canare cables along their entire signal path.

You can also return these items if you don't like it. Just always keep in mind, your signal is only as good as your worst cable. Does you no good having a Mogami cable going into an external pre with a shitty cable coming out the pre into your interface.

Best example I can give. We were all at band practice one day. Guitarist shows up with a bag full of Monster cables. Enough to replace every cable along his chain including from the head to his cab. The difference was night and day. So much that everyone else did the same that week.

Everyone else can suck it and continue to live in this fantasy of snake oil, everyone is out to rob you state of being.




Sent from my Nexus S 4G
#41
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Chris View Post
I think people hear that say there's no difference have never sat down and actually done a comparison test. There's an obvious difference in using high end cables. Don't believe me? Ask any high end studio why there all wired with either Mogami or Canare cables along their entire signal path.

You can also return these items if you don't like it. Just always keep in mind, your signal is only as good as your worst cable. Does you no good having a Mogami cable going into an external pre with a shitty cable coming out the pre into your interface.

Best example I can give. We were all at band practice one day. Guitarist shows up with a bag full of Monster cables. Enough to replace every cable along his chain including from the head to his cab. The difference was night and day. So much that everyone else did the same that week.

Everyone else can suck it and continue to live in this fantasy of snake oil, everyone is out to rob you state of being.




Sent from my Nexus S 4G
When two cables give you a total null in a null test, the sounds are identical. There is nothing to argue about. Do you know what a null test is? Look it up.
#42
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Chris View Post
I think people hear that say there's no difference have never sat down and actually done a comparison test. There's an obvious difference in using high end cables. Don't believe me? Ask any high end studio why there all wired with either Mogami or Canare cables along their entire signal path.

You can also return these items if you don't like it. Just always keep in mind, your signal is only as good as your worst cable. Does you no good having a Mogami cable going into an external pre with a shitty cable coming out the pre into your interface.

Best example I can give. We were all at band practice one day. Guitarist shows up with a bag full of Monster cables. Enough to replace every cable along his chain including from the head to his cab. The difference was night and day. So much that everyone else did the same that week.

Everyone else can suck it and continue to live in this fantasy of snake oil, everyone is out to rob you state of being.




Sent from my Nexus S 4G
Also, I can't speak to your guitarists cables. Those are unbalanced. Haven't tested unbalanced cables yet. With unbalanced though, in my experience, length makes more difference than anything.
#43
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
  #43
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there is difference. i did a test with my standard cables cordial and some monster cable. there is a difference in the mids and high, the monster cables has more details.

it would be great if i can get the same sound with the cheaper cables but they dont sound as good as the monster. So many people had the same results who did test like these so all of them have bad ear?

i will do a null test in the next days when i have the time for it. lets see what the null test shows.
#44
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suchenderxxx View Post
there is difference. i did a test with my standard cables cordial and some monster cable. there is a difference in the mids and high, the monster cables has more details.

it would be great if i can get the same sound with the cheaper cables but they dont sound as good as the monster. So many people had the same results who did test like these so all of them have bad ear?

i will do a null test in the next days when i have the time for it. lets see what the null test shows.
I have absolutely nothing to say about other people's ears or what they hear.
I have been the victim of expectation bias many times. It's no joke. Therefore, when a bunch of money's on the line (I was thinking about buying a bunch of Mogami Gold) I typically try to test things in a more objective way. Blind, fastidiously level-matched listening or, where possible, a null test. In the case of cables, a null test is perfect. Run the same signals through different cables and if you flip that polarity switch and get the ol' Silence of Objectivity, that's it. The signal is the same. Exactly the same.
I can't talk about other cables I haven't tested. What I can say with absolute certainty is that Mogami Gold do not sound different than my middle of the road cables. And that is a fact. I suspect that many other cables would null with each other (barring a defective cable or something) but I haven't tested em, so I'm not saying that.
#45
30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
I have absolutely nothing to say about other people's ears or what they hear.
I have been the victim of expectation bias many times. It's no joke. Therefore, when a bunch of money's on the line (I was thinking about buying a bunch of Mogami Gold) I typically try to test things in a more objective way. Blind, fastidiously level-matched listening or, where possible, a null test. In the case of cables, a null test is perfect. Run the same signals through different cables and if you flip that polarity switch and get the ol' Silence of Objectivity, that's it. The signal is the same. Exactly the same.
I can't talk about other cables I haven't tested. What I can say with absolute certainty is that Mogami Gold do not sound different than my middle of the road cables. And that is a fact. I suspect that many other cables would null with each other (barring a defective cable or something) but I haven't tested em, so I'm not saying that.
don't get so defensive dude, no one is going to steal your rug
we're all just talking and learning.

if you trust your eyes more than your ears, look here:

[quote]sommer cable | SC-QUANTUM HIGHFLEX | Bulk Cables | Multipair Stage, Studio & Installa

[quote]MOGAMIĀ® - Bulk Snake Cables

Both high end cables.
The Sommer clearly has more definition in the high range. it has lower capacitance.
These 2 cables won't sound the same.

I'm not saying that the high end cables aren't overpriced. they are.
they probably cost just a little more to make than low-end cables.
but often you are not just paying for production costs, you are paying for r&d.

a mogami cable that goes for $10 a metre, could easily be sold at $5 a metre and still give mogami, the distributer, and the retailer plenty of profit.
they choose to play on the old adage that people believe if they pay more, they get better quality.
in the case of mogami, it is true you will get better quality, but you aren't getting a good deal, but you are getting a good transparent cable.

I didn't need to do a null test, i could see with my eyes, in the eq, that there was a very obvious difference when taking a snap shot and examining them.
i agree you can have phantom bias, but if its a blindfold test, and others have the same results on the test, then that is conclusive.

you have just tested one cable against another, playing an entire song.
try different cables, and try playing just individual high and low notes from a piano sample.

you'll come around, we all do in the end.
better cables/connectors make a difference in the visual world, is it so hard to believe that there is a difference in cables in the audio world?
#46
30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
  #46
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it would be great for me if this would be true that there is no difference. so i could go and buy only the cheap calbles. Really i want that this is true. But my objective tests showed different results. i also used some cheaper cables brand is schulz and they are crap, very thin sounding and prone to noise no good isolation i think.

and as the poster above me said. we have a chat here. to exchange experience and learn something. this is why i will take some time and do some nulltests.
#47
30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
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So, anyone else do the ion thing? I know certian Planet Waves instrument cables do. I did a while ago. Need to mine again. Just cause. And there IS a difference in this. not sure how long it lasts. i only did instrument cable this way.
#48
30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
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[QUOTE=charlierokit;8585247]don't get so defensive dude, no one is going to steal your rug
we're all just talking and learning.

if you trust your eyes more than your ears, look here:

[quote]sommer cable | SC-QUANTUM HIGHFLEX | Bulk Cables | Multipair Stage, Studio & Installa

Quote:
MOGAMIĀ® - Bulk Snake Cables

Both high end cables.
The Sommer clearly has more definition in the high range. it has lower capacitance.
These 2 cables won't sound the same.

I'm not saying that the high end cables aren't overpriced. they are.
they probably cost just a little more to make than low-end cables.
but often you are not just paying for production costs, you are paying for r&d.

a mogami cable that goes for $10 a metre, could easily be sold at $5 a metre and still give mogami, the distributer, and the retailer plenty of profit.
they choose to play on the old adage that people believe if they pay more, they get better quality.
in the case of mogami, it is true you will get better quality, but you aren't getting a good deal, but you are getting a good transparent cable.

I didn't need to do a null test, i could see with my eyes, in the eq, that there was a very obvious difference when taking a snap shot and examining them.
i agree you can have phantom bias, but if its a blindfold test, and others have the same results on the test, then that is conclusive.

you have just tested one cable against another, playing an entire song.
try different cables, and try playing just individual high and low notes from a piano sample.

you'll come around, we all do in the end.
better cables/connectors make a difference in the visual world, is it so hard to believe that there is a difference in cables in the audio world?
Not defensive. Sorry if the txt made it seem so.
Again, I'm not talking about anything other than the cables I've tested. Perhaps other cables sound different. All you have to do is null test em to know. It has nothing to do with trusting your eyes over your ears or anything like that. If they null, it's the same. Mids, highs, lows, whatever. The exact same signal is being transmitted. If they don't null, then you've got to decide if you find one more pleasing than the other.
It is comical though if you do get a total null with two cables and someone responds with "dude, you just can't tell the difference".

I know that's not what you're saying in this case. Obviously the Mogami Golds sound identical to my cheap cables with no room for argument. You're saying other expensive cables will not null and will sound better.

Which cables do you think sound best, out of curiosity? Because if some did sound better, I'd buy a couple in a heartbeat and I'd listen to them AND null test 'em.
#49
30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
  #49
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well lets see...

in my lil setup i have cabling from hosa, whirlwind, canare

everything seems to work fine..no hum buzz or hiss so i'm good
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#50
30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isawsasquatch View Post
I'd like to take a moment to thank Ragan for being a sensible voice in this chaotic and, at times, nonsensical thread.
Why, thank you, kind Sasquatch seer.
#51
31st December 2012
Old 31st December 2012
  #51
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Quote:

Which cables do you think sound best, out of curiosity? Because if some did sound better, I'd buy a couple in a heartbeat and I'd listen to them AND null test 'em.
as i said, for me, its not so much about best, its more about transparency.
i like to do as little 'mixing' as possible, so i try get everything sounding perfect during tracking.
saying that, i do have some nice 'dark' sounding geetar cables.

the sommer i quoted, that would work great if you are doing a really long run, the fact it has lower capacitance means you won't lose as much high end as you might with the mogami at a very long length.

it really comes down to what you are after.
so many good and different cables for all types of applications.
klotz, canare, belden, gotham, mogami, sommer, piranha... to name a few off the top of my head.

every bit of gear you upgrade gives you that few percent more, and with a few careful and wise decisions, all your little upgrades can add up to 30% of improvement.
you might not notice the 5-7% percent difference just by upgrading your cables, but add that to your new converter, your new monitors and it all starts sounding closer to what you want to hear.

when i did my first install i used the $1 a metre cable because i wanted to spend more money on more important things. no matter how expensive your cable is, it won't help cheap mics sound any better.
when i had more of a budget and wanted to improve things, and learnt more, and did comparisons, i upgraded the cables.
They were the last upgrade, after everything else had reached a certain level.

between a $1 a metre and a $10 a metre cable, you are only going to get maximum around 8% improvement/transparency.
There is no point in spending that much extra if you don't have really good mics, preamps, monitors, amps, guitars, synths, eq's, compressors, etc.
if you have really good gear, then you can justify spending the vast more expense on improving your sound by a very few %.

The trick is to spend your money in the right areas first, then upgrade the other areas when the time and budget is right.

There is no point in having $10 a metre cable if your convertor is just $200,etc,etc.
when your converter costs over $1500 and you have preamps which cost over $1000 ea, then its a good time to start looking at upgrading your cables.

yes, there is a difference between expensive and cheap cables, but its all relative to your gear.

spend your money where it matters first, upgrade to the max level you can afford before starting to upgrade your cables.
your money can be spent in far more important areas.
the difference between a cheap and expensive converter can buy you a 100% improvement in your sound.
you will never get that kind of improvement in upgrading from $1 per/m to $10 per/m cables.

hopefully that helps the OP in your decision.
#52
31st December 2012
Old 31st December 2012
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I've heard some pretty clear differences between guitar cables (for example, we keep some George L cables around Mad Oak that I prefer for brighter clean sounds), but I've never been conclusively convinced that the balanced cables I routinely use (TT, mic, and the ocassional TRS) could benefit from any manner of "upgrading".
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#53
31st December 2012
Old 31st December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spice house View Post
charlierokit with an incredible explanation! They should be paying you! I was just sitting here scratching my head and trying to think of how to explain the sun to someone who lives in a cave.
Get a load of this guy.




But back to serious posters.

Charlierokit

I, of course, agree with most all of your idea of gear priorities. I've spent a long time and a lot of money building up my little rig here. I was just after what cables you thought sounded better than, or in your word "transparent" than, Mogami so that if the opportunity arises, I could try them and see if they too, in fact, null with middle of the road cables. And if they don't, I'll see if I prefer them.

Thanks!
#54
31st December 2012
Old 31st December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isawsasquatch View Post
I still wanna know what the deal with this was.
Haha. I almost do too. But not really.
#55
31st December 2012
Old 31st December 2012
  #55
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I've never A/B Mogamis and Monsters with generic but I do know they are higher quality for sure. I've had cheap cables that made noise when I moved them haha. (not like a lose solder connection but like I slid it across the floor and the sound came through the amp) I was told once thats your set up is only as good as your weakest link so I try as much as I can to live by that.

I've heard most pro studios wire the entire studio with Mogami so that might say something about them but like I said I never A/B them.

At the very least Monster and Mogami are life time warranty so it will be the last cable you buy.
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#56
31st December 2012
Old 31st December 2012
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There's a lot of talk of null tests on here but sorry, I use my ears and when 5 of us are looking at each other saying "wow what a f*****g difference" that's all the proof I need. No null test is gonna change that. We could easily have said "nope, go get your $200+ back and put it towards a cool fx pedal" but instead everyone else went the next day to change theirs out as well.

But like I said. Almost every place will let u return these things if your not happy with it so I don't see the harm in anyone trying it out for themselves.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G
#57
31st December 2012
Old 31st December 2012
  #57
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Mogami is crazy expensive in UK - so most of us are on Neutrik connectors with Van Damme cables as a industry standard.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
To Paraphrase Han Solo:

"Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Mojo controlling everything. There's no mystical Mojo that controls my destiny. Anyway, it's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."

Keep on keeping on,
Frank
#58
31st December 2012
Old 31st December 2012
  #58
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#59
31st December 2012
Old 31st December 2012
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Chris View Post
There's a lot of talk of null tests on here but sorry, I use my ears and when 5 of us are looking at each other saying "wow what a f*****g difference" that's all the proof I need. No null test is gonna change that. We could easily have said "nope, go get your $200+ back and put it towards a cool fx pedal" but instead everyone else went the next day to change theirs out as well.

But like I said. Almost every place will let u return these things if your not happy with it so I don't see the harm in anyone trying it out for themselves.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G

AGAIN, I'm not talking about your unbalanced guitar cables. For what it's worth, I bought monster guitar cables years ago and thought they sounded better too. I still have them and use them. I never tested them. Don't care to.

However. IF they were tested and DID null with the other cables, I'd have some news: that would mean your ears were lying to you. All this talk of "I use my ears man, I don't need any null tests" is hilarious.
I don't know how to say this any clearer. IF (and its definitely "if") you "hear" a difference between two signals that null, your trusty ears are lying to you and that is an absolute fact.
Please, look into what a null test is.

And AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN I have no idea if your unbalanced guitar cables would null against each other.
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#60
31st December 2012
Old 31st December 2012
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
Run the same signals through different cables and if you flip that polarity switch and get the ol' Silence of Objectivity, that's it...
i run the same signal through 2 exact same cables and don't get a null...
ie...the D/A > A/D prevents a null in my case, not the cables
i can only get down to about -64dB

how do you make this test the right way?
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