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how to stay in key with beats???
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#31
22nd December 2012
Old 22nd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suchenderxxx View Post
if you never learn music theory then you will have a hard time making music that makes sense. so how you want to make music if you dont know about cadences, about counterpoint, harmonies??? you think you can make music when you know that a chord fits?
Cadences: A harmonic cadence is a progression of (at least) two chords that concludes a phrase, section, or piece of music.[2] A rhythmic cadence is a characteristic rhythmic pattern indicating the end of a phrase.[3] Cadences give phrases a distinctive ending that can, for example, indicate to the listener whether the piece is to be continued or concluded. An analogy may be made with punctuation,[4] with some weaker cadences acting as commas that indicate a pause or momentary rest, while a stronger cadence acts as a period that signals the end of the phrase or sentence. A cadence is labeled more or less "weak" or "strong" depending on the sense of finality it creates. While cadences are usually classified by specific chord or melodic progressions, the use of such progressions does not necessarily constitute a cadence—there must be a sense of closure, as at the end of a phrase. Harmonic rhythm plays an important part in determining where a cadence occurs.

Cadences are the main method used in tonal music to create the sense that one pitch is the tonic or central pitch of a passage or piece. Edward Lowinsky thought that the cadence was the "cradle of tonality."

Counterpoint: In music, counterpoint is the relationship between voices that are harmonically interdependent (polyphony), but independent in rhythm and contour. It has been most commonly identified in classical music, developing strongly during the Renaissance and in much of the common practice period, especially in Baroque music. The term originates from the Latin punctus contra punctum meaning "point against point".

In music, harmony is the use of simultaneous pitches (tones, notes), or chords.[1] The study of harmony involves chords and their construction and chord progressions and the principles of connection that govern them.[2] Harmony is often said to refer to the "vertical" aspect of music, as distinguished from melodic line, or the "horizontal" aspect.[3] Counterpoint, which refers to the interweaving of melodic lines, and polyphony, which refers to the relationship of separate independent voices, are thus sometimes distinguished from harmony.

Harmonies: In popular and jazz harmony, chords are named by their root plus various terms and characters indicating their qualities. In many types of music, notably baroque, romantic, modern and jazz, chords are often augmented with "tensions". A tension is an additional chord member that creates a relatively dissonant interval in relation to the bass. Typically, in the classical Common practice period a dissonant chord (chord with tension) will "resolve" to a consonant chord. Harmonization usually sounds pleasant to the ear when there is a balance between the consonant and dissonant sounds. In simple words, that occurs when there is a balance between "tense" and "relaxed" moments.

Is that all you need to know to make good music?
#32
22nd December 2012
Old 22nd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thysta View Post
without theory, you'll be very limited in composing. most of these guys who say you need no theory are writing childish melodies and cant make a simple chord progression.

also, just because you didn't go to school to learn music theory doesn't mean you don't use it.

it makes no sense to invent hot water imho.

also depends on what you want to do. for dirty south, you don't need no theory. but for things like J.R. Rotem and Scott Storch does, you're not in the ballpark without knowing scales and chord progressions.
Agreed, knowing theory helps when doing tracks like these guys.
But the hurdle is when it looks good on sheets, and sound good on piano, not to destroy what you have written by choosing wack sounds in your production.
Storch at least, have done this over and over again.
Rotem, not so much.
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#33
23rd December 2012
Old 23rd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezionjd View Post
A
But the hurdle is when it looks good on sheets, and sound good on piano, not to destroy what you have written by choosing wack sounds in your production.
So true...and fromwhat I've heard , difficult for some to do.

This si where an undersatnding of arranging can come in handy..ala Sebesky,Riddle etc
#34
23rd December 2012
Old 23rd December 2012
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Basically, most people who make beats are in the age range of 17-25. You either spent your formative time working on tweaking sounds and worrying about textures, or you spent it learning to play instruments. Neither one really has time to worry about the other.
#35
23rd December 2012
Old 23rd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsowa View Post
Basically, most people who make beats are in the age range of 17-25. You either spent your formative time working on tweaking sounds and worrying about textures, or you spent it learning to play instruments. Neither one really has time to worry about the other.
Thats right on the money. Thats why alot of cats who know a whole bunch of music theory can't make a beat that has any appeal, but heads that ain't all that advanced in music theory, but know what sounds they like can make some heat with in a 2 bar loop. I would definitely say focus on texture and detail at some point.
#36
24th December 2012
Old 24th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesEdward View Post
Cadences: A harmonic cadence is a progression of (at least) two chords that concludes a phrase, section, or piece of music.[2] A rhythmic cadence is a characteristic rhythmic pattern indicating the end of a phrase.[3] Cadences give phrases a distinctive ending that can, for example, indicate to the listener whether the piece is to be continued or concluded. An analogy may be made with punctuation,[4] with some weaker cadences acting as commas that indicate a pause or momentary rest, while a stronger cadence acts as a period that signals the end of the phrase or sentence. A cadence is labeled more or less "weak" or "strong" depending on the sense of finality it creates. While cadences are usually classified by specific chord or melodic progressions, the use of such progressions does not necessarily constitute a cadence—there must be a sense of closure, as at the end of a phrase. Harmonic rhythm plays an important part in determining where a cadence occurs.

Cadences are the main method used in tonal music to create the sense that one pitch is the tonic or central pitch of a passage or piece. Edward Lowinsky thought that the cadence was the "cradle of tonality."

Counterpoint: In music, counterpoint is the relationship between voices that are harmonically interdependent (polyphony), but independent in rhythm and contour. It has been most commonly identified in classical music, developing strongly during the Renaissance and in much of the common practice period, especially in Baroque music. The term originates from the Latin punctus contra punctum meaning "point against point".

In music, harmony is the use of simultaneous pitches (tones, notes), or chords.[1] The study of harmony involves chords and their construction and chord progressions and the principles of connection that govern them.[2] Harmony is often said to refer to the "vertical" aspect of music, as distinguished from melodic line, or the "horizontal" aspect.[3] Counterpoint, which refers to the interweaving of melodic lines, and polyphony, which refers to the relationship of separate independent voices, are thus sometimes distinguished from harmony.

Harmonies: In popular and jazz harmony, chords are named by their root plus various terms and characters indicating their qualities. In many types of music, notably baroque, romantic, modern and jazz, chords are often augmented with "tensions". A tension is an additional chord member that creates a relatively dissonant interval in relation to the bass. Typically, in the classical Common practice period a dissonant chord (chord with tension) will "resolve" to a consonant chord. Harmonization usually sounds pleasant to the ear when there is a balance between the consonant and dissonant sounds. In simple words, that occurs when there is a balance between "tense" and "relaxed" moments.

Is that all you need to know to make good music?
are you a little childish? i told some examples. and you copied this stuff from wikipedia and you think you are now a scientist?

if you want to make 4 bar beats then you can go for the texture thing. and put sounds in these 4 bars. but if you want to produce an entire song you need to learn and study music in whole. it is a lifetime thing. there is allways something that you can learn that can improve your skills.
#37
24th December 2012
Old 24th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suchenderxxx View Post
are you a little childish? i told some examples. and you copied this stuff from wikipedia and you think you are now a scientist?

if you want to make 4 bar beats then you can go for the texture thing. and put sounds in these 4 bars. but if you want to produce an entire song you need to learn and study music in whole. it is a lifetime thing. there is allways something that you can learn that can improve your skills.
Now don't get me wrong it can be extremely beneficial to your development as a musician, but music theory can never give you an ear for music which is the single most important quality in being a successful producer. If anything music theory would benefit a musician, but when it come to hip-hop,pop, or any kind of modern electronic music what you really need to know is arrangement and timing.
#38
24th December 2012
Old 24th December 2012
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let me say that a ear is very important. but what can you do with an good ear, you are fishing around for tones and chords to get an 4 bar loop going. but a song is not done with an 4 bar loop. you need an arrangement and you can build an arrangement if you know how music works. if you know how to close a chord progression and you know how to build a strong or weak chord progression and when to build it. all these things go much faster and easier if you know what you are doing and what you want to do. else it is something like accident...

dr. dre produced hits and after that he decided to get his master in music. Why needs and producer like Dre an master in music if he already had produced hits? Cause musictheory is the elemantary speak of music and if you want to make music learn the speak first.

But everyone is different if it works like you do then keep doing your thing. but to say you only need an ear is wrong.
#39
24th December 2012
Old 24th December 2012
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Y'all plz look up the circle of fifths and the basics it is a must if you want to play unique scales and chords and dope inversions that aren't common...don't dumb yourself down on the technical or the creative side of things
#40
24th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Coleman View Post
Yeah, dre stopped making good music after learning theory ;-) Of course, we would all like to be as proficient at what we do as possible.
So did the Rza.

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#41
25th December 2012
Old 25th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsowa View Post
Basically, most people who make beats are in the age range of 17-25. You either spent your formative time working on tweaking sounds and worrying about textures, or you spent it learning to play instruments. Neither one really has time to worry about the other.



#42
25th December 2012
Old 25th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post



#43
25th December 2012
Old 25th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beyondat View Post
So did the Rza.

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+1
#44
25th December 2012
Old 25th December 2012
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so you guys really think that knowledge can make your beats worse?

i dont think so with the knowledge you have the tools you need to make music that sounds like it should.

Most of you guys who dont know or dont learn music theory take this as an excuse to be lazy and make boring 4 bar beats. and then they think they have made a song.

But it is easier to excuse your laziness with such phrases like rza sounded better dre sounded better blabla so you can go one and put some noise in a 4 bar loop.
#45
25th December 2012
Old 25th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suchenderxxx View Post
so you guys really think that knowledge can make your beats worse?

i dont think so with the knowledge you have the tools you need to make music that sounds like it should.

Most of you guys who dont know or dont learn music theory take this as an excuse to be lazy and make boring 4 bar beats. and then they think they have made a song.

But it is easier to excuse your laziness with such phrases like rza sounded better dre sounded better blabla so you can go one and put some noise in a 4 bar loop.
I started playing bass about 5 years ago and I have been slowly learning theory. I've played drums in high school. Knowledge has nothing to do with music because its about emotion an feeling. You could play the same 2 chords for a whole song and if you play them at the right time then it can be great music. Stevie Wonder said "if it makes your head move then its good music". Like I've said before I've been in sessions with classically trained musicians who were basically robots. They couldn't play anything soulful if their life depended on it, but the could tell me which notes are not in the scale. Razor lost a lot of his musical rawness when he started learning theory. I want to learn how to read charts strictly for bass playing only. I never want to think about any theory while I'm making beats ever, it's makes your music predictable. I do believe that learning an instrument will help your music but the theory can hurt it if used wrong in hiphop.
#46
25th December 2012
Old 25th December 2012
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never ever theory can hurt your music. it opens up new possibilities which you never knew that you have them... i started learning this stuff and i barely scratched the surface of it. but the more i learn the better my music is. the timing thing is nothing that you all make an miracle from it. we all know if its to robotic then move the notes or the sample for some ticks adjust the velocity and there you go.

but you will never know thru a good ear, which chords modulates in an other key or how to do that if you did not learn that. you will allways work on an accident when you dont have the theory for an counterpoint melody, cause you dont know the rules of it. you will never know that every single note in the scale has a function, every chord in the scale has a function... all these things makes you compose music in an faster and effective way and it opens up new possibilities. which you dont have if you dont know it. it is simple as that.

yes it is about emotion, but diminished chords transport another emotion then major chords or minor chords... and this is also music theory...

and this is the reason why the guys which made it in the music industrie without knowing music theory at first are learning all these stuff.
#47
25th December 2012
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A lot of the guys who made it in the industry ( hiphop)without knowing theory do rush to learn it but for some reason their music often becomes cheesy.
#48
25th December 2012
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Eminem is very obvious with this practice. Listen to his stuff.
He typically has songs in a minor key. Again, going back to the example pointed. Cleanest way to work out key is obviously by listening to the Bass root-note. Say if you hear an A as the obvious bass note that is in the song, chances are it's in A minor. If you dont want to learn theory or do a crash course real quick, just download a chord app on your iPhone. Click Aminor and see what belongs there. In hiphop, they usually do 1, 3, 5 in the minor key (A, C, E). As mentioned above, try other notes as passing melody in your rhyming.
Again, learn to trust your ears and then double check what you are hitting. You may well be spot on.
P's. I'm not a hiphop producer, but I listen to good hiphop and break down the art often. In anyevent, learning theory is the key IMHO, a lot (not all) of hiphop producers have made music so dumb, it's been the death of good music. Theyve made money in the music biz without knowing a darn note or what it means. So glad to see folks like you wanting to learn basic music theory. It's not that hard. Start with an app and you will be way ahead in your craft. I strongly believe in learning as you go along, so you make money and reward yourself whilst you learn something new, perfect it and execute it in your art. Dont take those who make fun of you learning it now seriously, we all started somewhere. Good luck!
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#49
25th December 2012
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The best answer i can give you is learn music theory basics. It's starts with learning all the Major Scales as the foundation then progresses as you master it. If you don't know what middle C is as a producer, Good Luck!
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#50
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
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Watch JFilts bassline series and apply some of his ideas and scales to your samples and instruments. Use your ears and be creative. ** NOTE ** This dude has some other very creative tutorials without being a snob about sharing some of his techniques.
How to Create Bassline on MPC Vol.1 - YouTube

One last thing. Has anyone every thought that if we actually shared knowledge on music forums instead of being like "Oh well that's a secret production technique" or "I spent x years learning this, so I'm too good to help you with xyz" that the music on the radio/internet would be all around better? I'm not saying give away all your hard earned work but simply helping someone without turning a thread into an argument about what the OP HAS/MUST NOT do. If Pete Rock told you all his music secrets, it would be all for not unless you had a similar creative mind to put it all together into a cohesive song!
#51
27th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mylesp View Post
how do i keep in key with my beats? just stay in the scale? lol

or do i stay in the notes that are used only in the chord progression?
Find the root note of what you're listening to on your keyboard.

Most likely, this will be the note heard on the 1.

I'll assume you know what major scales and minor scales sound like.

...If not Major = Happy, Minor = Sad, more or less.

Practice and remember the following:

Major Scale: Whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole, step, whole step, half step.

Minor Scale: Whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step

A whole step is where you skip a key. Half step is where you don't skip a key.

Example 1: C to D is a whole step.

Example 2: C to C#/Db is a half step.

Once you've found the root and identified if it's a major or minor scale, follow the whole step/half step thing to stay in key...more or less.

This is in regards to heptatonic scales, such as major and minor, which have 7 notes.

Pentatonic, mentioned earlier, uses 5 notes.

Probably as simple as you can get music theory wise, but it helped me out a lot when I first started out and I was glad someone showed this to me.
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#52
28th December 2012
Old 28th December 2012
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As much as I agree with folks saying "use your ears", it's just as good to understand basic theory as those together help push envelopes a lot more.
Also, chances are that those who keep insisting "use your ears" probably know just that, which is fine up to a certain point, but then there is a whole new world if u know and understand the fundamentals of music.
Btw Good explanation the Govna! Could not have simplified it any better!
#53
28th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teknatronik View Post
Cubase has a feature that tells you what key each one shot is in and then it has the ability to change that note. I always set my drums to the root of the song...
Is this a plug-in or something that is strictly limited to Cubase?

I would love to see this in action... it should be in every DAW.

Anyone know of anything like this that works in AU, RTAS (Logic and Pro Tools)?

If you see this Teknatronik, if you made a beat in C Major and then find a kick drum you like... you analyze the kick drum and it tells you what note it is? So if it's a D# or something, you can set the kick drum to a C? Not to digress but what happens if the kick drum you are analyzing is a F... or a G... or a B... a.k.a. any of the white notes, it is technically still in the key of C major, would you change it to a C? Confusing, I know... Trying to figure out tuning in regards to kicks/snares/percussion.
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28th December 2012
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28th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal_One View Post
Is this a plug-in or something that is strictly limited to Cubase?

I would love to see this in action... it should be in every DAW.

Anyone know of anything like this that works in AU, RTAS (Logic and Pro Tools)?

If you see this Teknatronik, if you made a beat in C Major and then find a kick drum you like... you analyze the kick drum and it tells you what note it is? So if it's a D# or something, you can set the kick drum to a C? Not to digress but what happens if the kick drum you are analyzing is a F... or a G... or a B... a.k.a. any of the white notes, it is technically still in the key of C major, would you change it to a C? Confusing, I know... Trying to figure out tuning in regards to kicks/snares/percussion.
cubase i think.
#56
28th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ1973 View Post
As much as I agree with folks saying "use your ears", it's just as good to understand basic theory as those together help push envelopes a lot more.
Also, chances are that those who keep insisting "use your ears" probably know just that, which is fine up to a certain point, but then there is a whole new world if u know and understand the fundamentals of music.
Btw Good explanation the Govna! Could not have simplified it any better!


Mylesp, this is the truth man.

We all have music theory in us.

This is why some people can do amazing things on instruments despite not having been taught theory. You really can use your ears.

Ever been in church and noticed the "Amen" you just sung sounded...resolved? Like, the most logical choice for that "Ah" to go was to that "Meeeeeeen"? Lol!

But yo, when you learn even a little of theory, as CJ1973 said, it really does open a whole new world to you.

I saw you post that you've learned a lot since the original post. Don't stop, and don't beat yourself up if something doesn't click right away.

And thanks a lot CJ1973!
#57
28th December 2012
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If you're a drummer, you make bomb beats with really simple melodies/harmonies.

If you're an instrumentalist, you make awesome melodies with really simple drums.

Sounds like you're in camp #1 OP, so I suggest taking a course in music theory centered around the piano.

You can do a LOT with a beat centered around one key, but it requires some understanding of harmony.
#58
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
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Learning the concept of scales will make it easier for you to compose melodies and chord progressions. It will save you a lot of trying and failing
#59
29th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knobsmcgee View Post
bruh, its not rocket science.
Rocket science is actually not that hard.
#60
29th December 2012
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put autotune on all of you instruments...
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