The Mpc4000/pro tools midi timing issue

[soulsyn]

I recently discovered that there is a discrepancy with using an akai mpc4000 with pro-tools in midi sync mode,ive used the 3000/4000 with a mix plus for 8 years with no problem ,the upgrade bug bit me, now im suffering,please read the thread and make any suggestions,this is my post from the digidesign website:



member


Reged: 01/29/06
Posts: 23
Loc: new york, n.y./pa Re: timing issue when synching Akai MPC with prot [Re: ROCKNOID]
#1028103 - 07/25/06 07:19 AM Edit Reply Quote



I too am having this dreaded midi timing issue and spent 14 hours yesterday trying to come up with a work around, ive been on every forum (mpc-forum) and there is no cure.Ill Start by saying i just sold a mix plus system with pt 6.4 and i didnt have this problem, so this problem is resident to digi002's. This is what i have dual core g5 2.0 ,2.5 gigs ram ,digi002/Mpc 4000,ill now run through the scenario,when syncing the mpc4000 by midi, there is a 2940 sample lag on the midi out of the 002, how i came up with this? first you can put a digirack click plug in on an instument track or audio track ,then insert a time adjuster(long) plug in after the click plug in.next you create a sequence on the mpc, make sure the swing is on 50% and make a track of just hi hat hits,now put your mpc on midi sync,mmc blah blah blah.when you hit play on the digi oo2 you will notice that the mpc's hi hat or even its metronome is very far from the 002 click, so now you start adjusting the sample delay on the time adjuster plug in until the 002 click and the mpc click or meshing as one, on my system the sample lag is about 2940 samples, i dont know if this will differ on various systems.now you got the clicks together you think youve solved the problem
NOOOO, as soon as you add a virtual instument your back to square one because the vi will quantize to the digi002 original click not the adjusted click,next you can go to your preferences and set your global midi sync delay to 2940 sample and your vi will now play in time with your adjusted click, so now are you out of the woods? Hell nooo,all this you just did is worthless because, the session is still governed by the original 002 click, ill make this more interesting instead of adjusting the global midi sync delay, you can adjust the track delay by going to the track midi real time properties and insert the 2940 sample delay on each track, still makes no sense cause the session is still governed by the 002 click, although what i have written here seems to be a temp fix, here is where you run into problems using this method,lets just say youve built a track on the mpc and are happy with it and you follow this procedure and then you add the vi delay fix and now you start adding vocals, i write r&b and i use around 30 to 50 tracks of just vocals, when you get around to cutting and pasting that 2940 sample delay will make you pay because you will be laying vocals to a modified click and not to the original click which is what your cutting and pasting will be governed by. In short i would like to hear how anyone with an Mpc 4000 solved this issue, on every thread users are saying i solved it but not saying how, this leads me to believe that they did not solve it,oh before i forget you can also change the song start time to move the original midi click to coincide with what you have going on, this one seems like a sure fix, hell noo, if you do this and have to add anything from your mpc later you better be a damn good drummer because you wont be able to add any fills or rolls in sync, because by chaging the song start you just added the 2940 sample midi lag back into the mix, i would like to hear from anyone who got this solved? Why should you have to spend half a day with a midi timing issue???let me go take my pressure pills before i burst an artery!!

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DigiTechSupt
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Reged: 01/14/00
Posts: 13104
Loc: Worldwide Re: timing issue when synching Akai MPC with prot [Re: soulsyn]
#1028149 - 07/25/06 08:45 AM Edit Reply Quote



The key to this is having the two devices locked with a sample clock, such as with an optical or SPDIF cable.

A typical scenario would be to have Pro Tools lock to your external device. You would connect the optical or SPDIF out of the external device to the 002 and, in Pro Tools Hardware Setups, set the Clock Source to the port coming from the external device.

You would then set then external device to send MTC (MIDI Time Code) to the 002 via a MIDI port. Put Pro Tools 'Online' and press play on the external device. Pro Tools will see the incoming MTC and sync at the first available frame - it then switches to the sample clock via optical or SPDIF to keep the devices in sample accurate lock.

--------------------
Digi Tech Support

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soulsyn
member


Reged: 01/29/06
Posts: 23
Loc: new york, n.y./pa Re: timing issue when synching Akai MPC with prot [Re: DigiTechSupt]
#1028284 - 07/25/06 01:31 PM Edit Reply Quote



Now that ive taken my daily dose of avalide and atenolol,let me tackle this reply,first off ive been using digi since session 8 and to insist that i use mtc is ludicrous, what about the hundreds of songs i have that i previously used midi timing perfectly on previous digidesign systems that wont lock up now because this issue,the quick of it ,anyone who knows anything about mtc knows that if you send mtc from lets say an mpc4000 and tell pt to start at a certain frame and both the mpc4000 and pt session are at the same tempo on of them is going to drift no matter how much sample lock you have,reason why is because no two machines have the same midi timing speed , thats why you have to lock two machines together using midi,thats like telling me i can record 46 tracks on two 2" otari machines without the machines synced and then record smpte on the remining tracks on both bachines and they would sync(the previously recommended method would only work on a new session with nothing previously recorded),id like to say i tried syncing a triton and the delay is still there ,so its not just akai mpc's,i hate seeming like a pest about this but it was brought to my attention when i submitted some pt tracks for a recording project and i was told that all the tracks were off(because the label in this matter uses their in house producers to add stuff to your songs using virtual instuments,just so they can get some publishing out of you)id like to quote something

Quote:Configuration of Pro Tools and MPC-2000 for sync using Midi Beat Clock and Midi Time Code on Mac OS X.
As of this writing MIDI Beat Clock, although not providing positional information, is the fastest for lock up. The following setup is for both MTC and MIDI Beat Clock. (when using MTC provide a bar or two of pre-roll)


With Pro Tools LE 6.x, you'll need an interface with MIDI capability such as a Digi 002Rack or mixer, Digi 001, or third party MIDI interface.


Verify that there is a device created in AMS for the MPC 2000; double-click on this device to insure that both receive and send for MTC and MIDI Beat Clock are checked.


Pro Tools:

1) Go to Setups > Peripherals > Synchronization > Generic MTC > port = DIGI 002 (or, other MIDI Interface of choice)
2) Go to Midi > Midi Beat Clock > make sure boxes for Enable Midi Beat Clock and MPC 2000 are filled in.
3) Session setup > Frame Rate = 30, and MTC to port = MPC 2000


MPC2000:

4) Go to > MIDI Sync > Frame Rate = 30, MIDI Clock (stands for MIDI Beat Clock; Choose either MTC or MIDI Beat clock here), receive MMC = off, Port 1 (There are 2 MIDI INS and 2 MIDI outs on the MPC 2000; VERIFY the MIDI cable going from the MIDI interface into either MIDI IN Port 1 or MIDI IN Port 2 corresponds to the Port selected on the MPC 2000's Midi sync menu)

5) Press Play on the MPC 2000 (it will wait for sync from Pro Tools).

6) Press Play on Pro Tools; it will trigger the MPC 2000.

MIDI Time Code is not absolutely necessary, but will ensure tighter lock over time. For general beat sync, use beat clock.


Unquote: This scenario is impossible because the mpc 4000 cannot sync to midi and outpout mtc at the same time(try it to see if it really works).Whats really happening is when you hit play on the mpc,mmc is triggering pro tools transport ,pro tools now sends midi out to the mpc and oops you have created a sync loop because you have mtc going out to pro tools(only one can be the master!!)

Edited by soulsyn (07/26/06 07:08 AM)

[DefJeff]

Thank God someone else is having this same problem! It has been driving me nuts for about a year now!!! Why not export your midi sequence in the MPC as a Standard Midi File, import that into Pro Tools, then use the MPC and whatever other device might be involved (if any) as sound module's. So there is no syncing of multiple clocks. I havn't tried it yet, but it sounds like it might work. Let me know.

Is your frame rate the same in Ptools as in the MPC 4k?

[soulsyn]

there are like 40 differents work arounds that will make your session and your music making a lot more frustrating, im trying to get the powers that be to pinpoint this anomaly, i do believe its either the digi002 itself,pt 7 software or apple ams.im going to do some tests using logic pro today and see if i have the same results, if it does then we will know its the digi002 or just apple ams

[F Major]

I had the same issue with the 4k and PT7! and I sold my 4kwent right back to using the MPC 2KXL.....problem solved(for me atleast)

ON the surface, this will make no sense, but:

Even though you are using midi clocks, make sure the MTc FRAME rate between the 2 systems (ptools/MPC) is set the same.

Have ptools sending MTC.


Should work better.

[Ascdi]

reason why is because no two machines have the same midi timing speed , thats why you have to lock two machines together using midi

digi dude is right. both PT and MPC derive their midi timing from their sample-rate clocks. so, if you lock those together (ie. by clocking to SPDIF or whatever) you have both machines proceeding at the same rate, even though they aren't locked to MIDI at all.

anyway, IMO midi clock is a disaster these days. even if you could work out a constant latency (ie. delay), there would still be random jitter (ie. a lack of "tightness") that, in my opinion, is there. so that's why i use the above method (with my lowly 1k). i don't have to worry about MIDI, the mpc sequencer proceeds as tightly as it can be, and then i just trim right up to the edge of the first drum beat, slide the whole region to the left, clock back to internal, and it's in perfect sync forever.

course, this doesn't work in real time really, but if you record the mpc audio to a track like this, nudge it so the first audio falls on the beat, it will be on the grid forever. sucks, but so does MIDI.

[soulsyn]

Hi guys , thanks for the replies hey ssl i can sync using mtc, but its not an option for the way i work,like i said ive been using oms for so many years ive got about
800 gigs of songs engineered with pro tools midi on lock( pt 6.4 and prior)ive had to do some quick thinking here i bought battery yesterday and i think im gonna roll with that, i dont forsee a viable fix for this.

as for the digi guy with the sample lock suggestion, all i gotta say is,ill dig up a wordclock card for the mpc 4000 and try that method(which i already know the outcome). Is there a spdif input on the MPC 1000? Damn ,But thanks anyway Peace

Originally Posted by soulsyn

Hi guys , thanks for the replies hey ssl i can sync using mtc, but its not an option for the way i work,like i said ive been using oms for so many years ive got about
800 gigs of songs engineered with pro tools midi on lock( pt 6.4 and prior)ive had to do some quick thinking here i bought battery yesterday and i think im gonna roll with that, i dont forsee a viable fix for this.

as for the digi guy with the sample lock suggestion, all i gotta say is,ill dig up a wordclock card for the mpc 4000 and try that method(which i already know the outcome). Is there a spdif input on the MPC 1000? Damn ,But thanks anyway Peace

I'm not suggesting you sync using MTC, I'm asking if both are set to the same frame rate.

Are they?

Having the digi clocks in sync will NOT solve your problem. From my understanding, you are not running a digital connection between the MPC and ptools, so it honestly doesnt matter if they are "in sync."

For YEARS MPCs and other drum machines have been synced via midi clock to other devices (when the MPCs Didnt HAVE a DIGI I/O that you could sync to ANYTHING)

The solution to your problem lies in a call to Akai tech support.

YOU NEED TO HAVE BOTH SET TO THE SAME FRAME RATE

ARE THEY??????

[Ascdi]

For YEARS MPCs and other drum machines have been synced via midi clock to other devices (when the MPCs Didnt HAVE a DIGI I/O that you could sync to ANYTHING)

hey, no argument here. i'm just suggesting an alternative. if you have a digital out on your mpc, there is ANOTHER WAY to do this that will avoid all the midi headaches. it's not some theory or anything either, it's a technique i use daily on my 1k and it makes total sense why it works.

or just keep plugging away at midi if you want. but even if you do get sync, i would bet that a track recorded "in sync" slaved to the computer still won't be as tight as a track with the MPC running free, which is the whole reason i like the method i mentioned. just trying to help!

[dussel]

second that,

I always use an impulse sample at the beginning of one track to position each track sample thight. With the adat option you can tranfer 8 tracks at a time and align them with the impulse sample on 1 track.

best
dussel

[soulsyn]

Hello Mr. Thomas...

If the MPC4000 worked "with no flaws" under the Mix+ system, I would
have to conclude that the problem solely lies with issues in the
Digi002/ProTools LE setup.

As far as Digidesign's statements using S/PDIF to clock to...let me
try to clarify. First...the only sync which is "sample accurate" is
ADAT SYNC (the 9-pin connection). With that said...clocking to
digital sync (which is what you would be doing if you locked to S/
PDIF) only makes sure that everything is speaking the same language
(only has to do with sample rate). Digital Clock and/or Word Clock
does not contain song position information...you will still need MTC
to get the "you should be here now...you should be here now..."
instructions from the Master device. Also...the Master will need to
send MMC in order to get the other slave devices to "move".

If you do end up trying this method...please let me know if it
works. I can say that I haven't heard of this issue with LE-based
Pro Tools systems before. Unfortunately...we can't test everything,
but it would be a great thing to know if the question ever did come
up in the future.

Hope that this helps!
________________________
Jon Hopewell
Technical Support
Alesis || Numark || Akai Pro
200 Scenic View Dr
Cumberland, RI 02864
P: 401.658.5760
F: 401.658.3921

[Rocksteady]

I've run into a similar problem with my MPC1000 OS2.1.

When synced to PTLE 6.4 001, any seq recorded with a swing % of 59 or less will be read as if there was no swing applied or "straight up".

I give a bar of pre-roll and I am aware that the MPC1000 only recieves MIDI Beat Clock not MTC. <--Sucks yeah I know...but so far it's my only gripe with the box thus far.

Help...

[halfguard]

i jusy experienced a timing issue with my 1000 for the first time last night. my hats were all over the place. it seemed to play different everytime...i use beat clock with my 002 rack.....funny thing is i only had 1 kick and 2 snares with the hats. was wierd.....

[tstu102]

did anybody ever figure out a way to resolve this issue? With my MPC1000 I could lock any pro tools tempo matched session instantly, and with my 4000, it seems to rush the time after 16 bars or so.

HELP!

[Lipps]

I use midi time code instead of beat clock. Put two blank bars in the beginning of both the PT session and my 4k in song mode (or sequence mode) and I've been good

[MaCH1ENT]

My setup syncs up pretty quickly but I kinda tweaked it, Im running a MPC 4k, Motif XS6 and a Digi 003, I did some shit in Pro Tools under the preferences and messed with the syncronization and some other shit and linked the machines together my shit pretty much catches the sequence it will sound off sometimes or have a little bit of latency but when I play back the recorded result its on time...You just have to troubleshoot and fiddle with it...Its possible to have Beat Clock be a reliable sync.