SP-505 vs. SP-1200

[jdsowa]

Yea, just clarifying in case someone thought you were saying the beats from that time didn't swing.

And it was actually very easy to do on an MPC. I always set resolution to 1/32 (3). Dunno about the SP as I never really bothered to sequence on it.

Is your avatar from Dune or something like Phantasy Star 4?

[Studio507]

I've never seen such unnecessary scientific breakdown of breakbeats and 12 bit samplers in my life lol....y'all wildin. Stop over thinking things.

[viewing]

nausicaa of the valley of the wind a movie from my childhood, soundtrack is amazing too

yooooo: hey parks, you are in contact with 'the god' premo himself....hows about asking him if he ever used the swing function in his beats or if he knew anybody who did? redundant maybe, but, inquiring noobs want to know and as an old head i am curious as well. would set the record straight once and for all to hear premo answer this question. or i could tweet him about it

[Hobbs_Won]

it's not the first or last time the swing argument has/will come up....

I agree it's way overthought....and it's overpaid too!!

[Goa-Dubs]

"it dont mean a thing if it aint got that swing"

[xanax]

i find it funny you guys think you know how everyone did it..those are some pretty brash satements.. were you guys sitting on every session of every produced record? i highly doubt it... so indeed without a direct comment from Premo or Pete, all you can do is listen to the records and analyze them... fwiw i believe swing was used even on early boom bap, the feature has been there since the earliest Linn LM-1 released in 1980. obviously it's in the SP-1200 & MPC60. i agree with jdsowa that swing can be heard on kicks even on the simplest boom bap beat. even more so on basslines may i remind you were often programmed on the SP/MPC often linked to a S-950. finally there are numerous interviews that mention the use and appreciation of swing quantize, just check the Buckwild interview i linked earlier in this thread... he says swing was even his favorite feature on the SP...

[viewing]

i mean....yea it very well could have been used on some records and by some producers, but you can't listen to any of those records and point it out. myself and thousands of other home producers were always trying to emulate what was hot in new york at the time. when something new came out we would end up duplicating it. it was just so easy to actually do that just by playing some notes and quantizing others, like woah, i just made a beat with the exact same feel as so and so. i nor any of my friends who made beats did not ever need a swing feature to do this. our greatest mission was finding 'those' drums used by so and so because it was all about the sounds you were using that made the music funky

thats where i'm coming from anyway. if this feature was used is of no great significance to me because as i have found out for myself over 20 plus years of boom bap making, you can make everything you hear coming out of new york in that era quite easily without the need for a swing function. alternatively, other forms like double time 808 dirty south beats would probably be impossible to achieve without it

[xanax]

actually 808 dirty south beats are usually straight with no swing, even the actual TR-808 drum machine has no swing feature on it. but that's a different story, back to boom bap, i think you can only speak for yourself in terms of production. fwiw i started making beats around 96 with heavy east-coast influence, but i'd already been DJing & crate digging since 91. i would also go to NYC couple times a year and hit the record shops hard in search of promos (Fat Beats, Beat Street in BK) i even ran into Primo once... but anyways i'm not here to brag..just letting you know where i'm coming from.. and in my circle word on the street was that the 3000 & SP1200 had this crazy swing, so i can tell you if we were up on it, you can be sure your dream producers at the time knew it as well...

[jrides]

Originally Posted by Studio507

I've never seen such unnecessary scientific breakdown of breakbeats and 12 bit samplers in my life lol....y'all wildin. Stop over thinking things.

I agree. However, you have to admit the thread subject itself was meant to be a bit provocative, so you kind of knew it would bring out the "crazies". I dont get much opportunity to talk about the 505, so I thought I would drop a few comments. Then later, the quote I cut and pasted, was basically meant to say...it wasnt that serious back then, and it isnt that serious today. The discussion went from lo-fi sound comparison to mythical and mathematical placement of notes. LOL Applied swing theory, and Quantum sequence methodology. Pretty wild.

How many ticks does it take to get to the SP12 center of a sequence drop?

I never really hear discussions about this type of stuff in real life.. however it seems like on this forum some cats love to wax poetic about this type of stuff.

[viewing]

i wouldn't mind knowing the truth from these producers either way. i'm intrigued now more than anything as i never heard it mentioned back in the day

[xanax]

there isn't much mystique in any of this... i often have to break it down scientific in here because people always come up with things like "swing is over rated" or "turn quantize off for dat swing". there is also a tendency to criticize anything overtly technical and downplay the importance of machines & features because it's all about "getting in the zone" and "not over thinking" so it's often you guys that render things mythical when in reality, especially back in the 90's, a lot of those records were actually recorded on some high end SSL gear with engineers way more technical then today having to sync all the units and do tracking the old way. producers also freaked every inch out of those old archaic samplers & sequencers and often came up with some wild tricks. unlike today with DAWs, huge sound libraries, vintage modes & basically copy'n'paste mentality..

[xanax]

Originally Posted by viewingstuff

i wouldn't mind knowing the truth from these producers either way. i'm intrigued now more than anything as i never heard it mentioned back in the day

if you can track down a copy of the SP-1200 book there are numerous interviews with tons of legendary nyc/sp1200 producers such as buckwild's that i linked previously, they often mention swing.. here is another one:

EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH SP-1200 FANATIC DJ DOOM (Reks, Cy Marshal, Wordsworth)


4. How does the workflow of making a beat on the SP-1200 differ from other beatmaking machines and software?

Working on my SP-1200 is a beautiful thing, you need to be very creative working on 2.5 sec. on 4-banks, chopping up samples, putting loops at the end of a samples to make the sample longer, sampling a bass note and spreading across the drum pads, speeding up a 33 LP just to get that riff into the SP cause of the limited sampling time , just the swing on the SP is crazy crazy crazy. On my mpc 4000, you have so much sampling time you can even record vocals in that monster, lol, But even the beats i produced on my 4000, they all chopped up and speed up samples, I’m so use to working on my SP that i take that same approach on my 4000 as I do on my SP. I just like being very creative with my beats.

[viewing]

he isn't mentioning the specific function that is called swing. he just describes the sound of the machine with the generic form of the word swing. we can't be having this debate if one side is always changing the argument, which is, do they use the function called swing or not. not whether people in general think some things in life sound swinging or not

[xanax]

huh?!!!! he is clearly talking about the swing function... !!!!!!
there is no way to describe "the sound of the machine" with "swing" as an adjective without implying swing quantize..
you are right though we cannot have this debate if you constantly twist every proof i give you

fyi here is a swing tutorial i found with audio examples..
the first paragraph smacks it on the head:

MsTrisMusic.Com

The Akai Mpc series is well known for the” swing” effect on the drum tracks. This technique was made popular by DJ Premier in the early 90?s. Since it’s arrival , adding swing is a must for classic Boom Bap type beats, a staple to East Coast hip hop. Many producers such as Pete Rock, J Dilla, and 9th Wonder continued to keep the swing factor heavy.

[peterpiper0815]

Originally Posted by jdsowa

"Substitution" actually doesn't swing. It's straight 1/16ths. Except that in the 2nd bar the drummer goes off and the kick swings accidentally.

Depends on how you interpret swing. The term swing is very hard to explain but I guess I don't have to tell you that.

For "synthetic substitution": I would call it accident only if I knew it for sure. AFAIK Purdie played these drums and as far as I heard his drumming (on the countless songs he played) his drumming sounds very very accurate. I don't know but IMO it seem that he wanted to play that way on the Melvin Bliss track. The "off kick" in the intro is not the only "off kick" If you listen to the whole song you'll find it in some other parts too.



peace

[viewing]

and just how is he clearly talking about the swing function? he says the machine swings like crazy. you know what that means? it means that the machine swings like crazy! i want you to provide me with an example from that book of some notable producer from that era specifically say they used the specific function called swing, not some 16 year old with frooty loops on the internetz in 2008 'trying' to sound like boom bap. some annonymous kid who is too young to even remember the boom bap days (ie 85-95) with warez attempts to sound dope and retroactively spit knowledge but fails is not proof

[xanax]

Originally Posted by viewingstuff

and just how is he clearly talking about the swing function? he says the machine swings like crazy. you know what that means? it means that the machine swings like crazy!

yes and that is a point of view i share with him as an SP1200 owner. the swing is crazy like no other machine. thats what i've been saying here all along and that is what he means by that, i still don't understand on what other level you could possibly interpret otherwise..

Originally Posted by viewingstuff

i want you to provide me with an example from that book of some notable producer from that era specifically say they used the specific function called swing,

The Lost Tapes: BUCKWILD interview from SP1200

What are some of your general thoughts on the SP1200, it's features and pros & cons?
I loved the swing about it. The swing, the truncation.

Originally Posted by viewingstuff

not some 16 year old with frooty loops on the internetz in 2008 'trying' to sound like boom bap. some annonymous kid who is too young to even remember the boom bap days (ie 85-95) with warez attempts to sound dope and retroactively spit knowledge but fails is not proof

The sad thing is that 16 year old understands boom bap era better then you probably ever will! If by now with all the proof i've given you, you still wanna negate the fact swing quantize was used and appreciated in the boom bap era well that is going to be your loss i.e. stay ignorant

[jdsowa]

When I get home I will make a comprehensive multimedia presentation to once and for all demonstrate what swing is so we can put this to bed.

[jrides]

Originally Posted by jdsowa

When I get home I will make a comprehensive multimedia presentation to once and for all demonstrate what swing is so we can put this to bed.

If you use powerpoint... make sure to have things flying in from the sides...and words that dissolve. It lacks credibility without blinking objects and things flying in and out of the presentation. Also, it would be more in line with the tone of this post. If you could make the border of each slide look like tinfoil, that would be awesome.

[viewing]

you still did not prove that either of these people are referring to the specific function called swing lol. in both examples they say the machine itself sounds swinging, that's all. none of what you have presented is proof lol

[Goa-Dubs]

Originally Posted by jdsowa

When I get home I will make a comprehensive multimedia presentation to once and for all demonstrate what swing is

The mind boggles

so we can put this to bed

Please do

[xanax]

Originally Posted by viewingstuff

you still did not prove that either of these people are referring to the specific function called swing lol. in both examples they say the machine itself sounds swinging, that's all. none of what you have presented is proof lol

riiiiight the machine sounds "swinging" lol.... yea that makes total sense...

honestly if you didn't get it by now, forget about it you never ever will..

[viewing]

yea, like, it sounds soooooo nonsensical, that like, they actually named a function after it some 20 years ago and here we are having this discussion about this function

er, well, you, keep flip flopping between the dictionary meaning of swing and the function specifically called swing in these machines. describing something as swinging and loving a machine for it's magical mythical patented 'swing' is for freaks who never bothered to find out you can get the exact same magical mythical 'swing' on many different machines WITHOUT applying a dedicated 'swing' (stupid name) function i agree : D

....or did you think i was talking about the dictionary meaning of swing again? please, rebuttal lol

[10 ton splash]

The swing function controls the dictionary meaning of swing on a drum machine or sequencer. I must remind myself that some people are dumb,deaf, and blind.

[xanax]

i agree...this dude is confused beyond help...not sure he himself understands what he is saying let alone what he is asking about..

[Hobbs_Won]

To be fair.....a lot of these dudes in the 90's didn't know what the hell they were talking about either....these were dudes out of the hood with a drum machine that was the "had to have" unit.....they didn't know how to articulate what they were hearing either...

I would bet $1000 that Premo himself would look at you like an alien the way the discussion about swing has materialized in this thread.

[xanax]

you assume wrong..preem is extremely tech savvy..have you ever seen d&d studios? wall to wall gear up in there...again despite what most people think peeps in the 90s were a lot more hands on with technology then today with the whole ITB thing..

[Hobbs_Won]

Originally Posted by xanax

you assume wrong..preem is extremely tech savvy..have you ever seen d&d studios? wall to wall gear up in there...again despite what most people think peeps in the 90s were a lot more hands on with technology then today with the whole ITB thing..

Preem is an extreme exception....

But I will say this much... Premo is not the only dude who had drums that "swung"...

Let's be honest... the number of Premo stans are insane. And there were tons of producers, even on the underground level, whose drums went toe to toe with Premo.

I have never ceded to Premo being the "end all, be all" of hip hop drums or boom bap hip hop.

[knobsmcgee]

there are and never were "tons" of producers who's drums go toe to toe with Preem. That's just outright foolishness.

but trying to speak for all boom bap producers and denying the usage of swing is just as foolish.

what was this thread about again?

[Hobbs_Won]

The point I was making was....the common train of thought amongst Premo stans is....

"When it comes to drums, there's Premo....and there is everybody else"

and that's just not true... it's propaganda.