Should you use " stage gain " while mixing in cubase ?

[Stackx]

Yea proper gain stage should be used in any daw. I find it sounds best when hitting around -12 n getting the main outs hitting around -6

[The Aristocrat]

You posing that question makes me question whether you know what gain staging is, yes you should. It is not something that is daw dependent but merely a good practice you should always follow and will create significantly less headaches when it comes to your levels and avoiding clipping.

[Sir Chris]

Actually in Cubase I think it would be 0db. Some DAWS clip above 0db but in Cubase 0db is actually -6db cause if u notice in Cubase you clip above +6db and not at 0db like in other DAWs. If I'm wrong about this, someone feel free to correct me.



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[ncoak]

ways all stage gain from amp pre to in plugs, fader channel to fader master.

it affects the performance of your entire chain signal

[The Aristocrat]

As an observation though I think a lot of persons are oblivious to proper gain staging because they work in the digital realm, I mean outside of the obvious distortion from clipping they have nothing to tell them otherwise, assuming no hardware is involved.

[Halma]

Originally Posted by Sir Chris

Actually in Cubase I think it would be 0db. Some DAWS clip above 0db but in Cubase 0db is actually -6db cause if u notice in Cubase you clip above +6db and not at 0db like in other DAWs. If I'm wrong about this, someone feel free to correct me.



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Well I think every DAW will clip above 0db/SPL. Maybe the meters inside Cubase use some kind of offset in imitating the analog domain? Just an assumption.

[Stackx]

Weird. I have cubase 5 and never noticed that. It always seems to clip at 0db for me.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Halma

Well I think every DAW will clip above 0db/SPL. Maybe the meters inside Cubase use some kind of offset in imitating the analog domain? Just an assumption.

0dBFS, not SPL. SPL is sound pressure level. FS is full scale. SPL is governed by your monitor level, not the DAW.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Sir Chris

Actually in Cubase I think it would be 0db. Some DAWS clip above 0db but in Cubase 0db is actually -6db cause if u notice in Cubase you clip above +6db and not at 0db like in other DAWs. If I'm wrong about this, someone feel free to correct me.



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0dB what? dB is just a ratio...you can turn something down 6dB but you can't set it to -6dB - it has to be -6dBFS or something.

All DAWs clips at 0dBFS at the output stage - or more accurately, the converter clips.

[Halma]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

0dBFS, not SPL. SPL is sound pressure level. FS is full scale. SPL is governed by your monitor level, not the DAW.

Thx for clearing this up.

Cheers,
Sebastian

[Sir Chris]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

0dB what? dB is just a ratio...you can turn something down 6dB but you can't set it to -6dB - it has to be -6dBFS or something.

All DAWs clips at 0dBFS at the output stage - or more accurately, the converter clips.

0db inside Cubase. Don't matter whether its the input channel, project channel, or your main outs. If u go over 0db on any of the channels your not going to get a clip light. You'd have to go over +6db before u a clip notification.

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[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by ncoak

ways all stage gain from amp pre to in plugs, fader channel to fader master.

it affects the performance of your entire chain signal

Well played.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Sir Chris

0db inside Cubase. Don't matter whether its the input channel, project channel, or your main outs. If u go over 0db on any of the channels your not going to get a clip light. You'd have to go over +6db before u a clip notification.

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So you mean dBFS. As I said, dB is just a ratio. You need to qualify it with a unit, otherwise "6dB" is meaningless unless as a gain change.

And if you go over 0dBFS on your output, you're going to clip your converters.

A greater understanding of dB and the various units would be beneficial overall!

[Halma]

Well, I have to say that since I started gain staging ITB and using a proper PEAK VU meter every other device like the threshold setting on a compressor makes totally sense.

Before that I turned all those knobs until everything sounded right (which wasn´t a bad thing) but now I think I have way more control over the dynamic range while watching the crest factor.

[Sir Chris]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

So you mean dBFS. As I said, dB is just a ratio. You need to qualify it with a unit, otherwise "6dB" is meaningless unless as a gain change.

And if you go over 0dBFS on your output, you're going to clip your converters.

A greater understanding of dB and the various units would be beneficial overall!

Thanks for the correction. Didn't know what the difference was. So yes, I was referring to dBFS.

In Cubase if your peaks exceed 0dBFS it doesn't register that as clipping. Your peaks would have to hit above +6dBFS to get a clip notification. Other DAWs ain't like this if I'm not mistaken. So i'm assuming that when anyone refers to keep peaks below -6dBFS I was wondering if in Cubase that would mean 0dBFS since u still have that additional 6db of headroom.



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[Stackx]

no point in running everything as hot as you possibly can just because you have the room. -12db in your daw will eq 0db on a vu meter. heres a site i just googled that actually has some good info. Final Cut Pro 7 User Manual

[Bender412]

Originally Posted by Stackx

... -12db in your daw will eq 0db on a vu meter...

Don't perpetuate the confusion lol ... that would be -12dBFS, not -12db. I'm just clearing that up for those that are trying to get a grip on this!

Also, I believe the reference level is dictated by the interface ... and in most interfaces it's 0dBu = -16dBFS or -18dBFS. I have an Apogee Rosetta and the reference levels are switchable between -16dBFS, -18dBFS and -22dBFS.

[B.A.S.E]

be careful, even while using plugins... if you insert several plugins in serie and does not pay any mind to the gain staging between them, you might get a few surprises. (e.g. distortion artifacts)

Same warning when using sends...

That's why I would rather do the leveling without any signal alteration and then apply all my effects afterwards while looking at the peak meters from time to time...

Also, gain staging and leveling are different in my dictionnary. (some people confuse the two)

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Sir Chris

Thanks for the correction. Didn't know what the difference was. So yes, I was referring to dBFS.

In Cubase if your peaks exceed 0dBFS it doesn't register that as clipping. Your peaks would have to hit above +6dBFS to get a clip notification. Other DAWs ain't like this if I'm not mistaken. So i'm assuming that when anyone refers to keep peaks below -6dBFS I was wondering if in Cubase that would mean 0dBFS since u still have that additional 6db of headroom.



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You can't have positive dBFS readings by definition. So if you can go " over" 0dB on the cubase meters, they're not reading dBFS - they must be reading some faux line-up VU fudge - that I'm sure you can switch into dBFS if you look into it.

To continue the point bender started above, which seems to be really misunderstood in here, in a pro environment you. "line up" digital gear to a calibration setting, so mixes can be recalled easily and gear behaves predictably. For example, 0dBVU = -18dBFS. This is where the whole "keep levels at -18dBFS" comes from - in the analogue world, you aim for around 0VU for most signals, accepting that peaks won't be shown on the VU meters and that you've left enough headroom to cope with it. Hence you don't need to keep peaks at -18dBFS ITB, just the constant signals. It's fine for snares to peak at -6dBFS, for example.

However, -18 isn't the only lineup; it's common in certain situations to line up to -12, -14, 16 or -20dBFS = 0dBVU as well.

Most semi-pro interfaces (by which I mean self contained interfaces, not those designed to be used with consoles) are preset to something like -16 or -18, sometimes with the option to switch between them.

Hope that makes things a bit clearer!

[Bender412]

Originally Posted by B.A.S.E

...Also, gain staging and leveling are different in my dictionnary...

Oh, the irony!

[Jerrick]

Weird, Cubase has also registered a clip once it goes over 0dbFS.

When recording I try to stay around -18dbFS. Sometimes things get tracked lower, sometimes things get hotter, but just around -12dbFS. Usually dont have to worry about anything after that, but the input gain knob Cubase has is a perfect tool to trim all your tracks down if they are too hot and to get them to hit your plugins at an optimal level.

Some plugins do work best while hitting close to 0dbFS, but most of them seem to really like -18 through -12.

[TMA]

Sir Chris is mistaken. Cubase registers clipping if a signal goes over 0dBFS.

[B.A.S.E]

Originally Posted by Bender412

Oh, the irony!

what ?

edit: let me be clearer...
in the digital realm, you could go with just leveling out the end signal provided your plugins do not have any inherent noise and the algorithm respond the same regardless of the amplitude of the incoming signal.

what "I" call gain staging is when you have to set the gain of the signal going from one plugin/analog unit to another so as to not raise the noise floor or process an overloaded signal... (although sometimes, it's desirable to get those distortion harmonics from some analog units by hitting them with a very hot signal so to speak)

this is independent from your end signal level.

Hope it's clear for you.

[Bender412]

Originally Posted by B.A.S.E

what ?

edit: let me be clearer...
in the digital realm, you could go with just leveling out the end signal provided your plugins do not have any inherent noise and the algorithm respond the same regardless of the amplitude of the incoming signal.

what "I" call gain staging is when you have to set the gain of the signal going from one plugin/analog unit to another so as to not raise the noise floor or process an overloaded signal... (although sometimes, it's desirable to get those distortion harmonics from some analog units by hitting them with a very hot signal so to speak)

this is independent from your end signal level.

Hope it's clear for you.

Forget all that lol... the irony is "Dictionnary" !!

[B.A.S.E]

Originally Posted by Bender412

Forget all that lol... the irony is "Dictionnary" !!

Ah, indeed ...

it's because I'm French and it spells differently (dictionnaire)... should have paid attention. lol.

Pretty interesting mistake actually, if it had been made on purpose. xD

[Sir Chris]

Originally Posted by TMA

Sir Chris is mistaken. Cubase registers clipping if a signal goes over 0dBFS.

TMA is right. I was wrong, this is embarrassing. I'm sorry....carry on.

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