The Quest for the perfect sub bass

[.T.]

Maybe we can give you a bit more of a hand if you explain your current technique to achieve a big bass. How do you go about it?

[KT1]

Originally Posted by Jpchartrand

Hi guys,

I've been working countless hours for the past months trying to achieve a sub bass in the mix that sounds as heavy and present as Headlines or 9 piece or clique or any song like that and I miserably fail over and over again.

I have tried so many techniques and samples and making my own and all and it always sounds like $/$&-

Please help me in my quest for the perfect sub bass. Any really good tutorials out there? Or tips and tricks?

I know its been covered countless times here on gs but i still havent got the results i hope for.

Thanks

Square/Sine/Triangle waveform..Low pass prefer 24db - Cut off closed - no resonance..no modulation. Level done.

From sound on Sound:

steer clear of detuned multi-oscillator patches, because the ‘beating’ between the two detuned layers may cause the sub-synth’s fundamental frequency to fluctuate unacceptably in level.

Stick with mono patches too, because low-end stereo width can reduce the power and consistency of the bass sound in mono, and will also interfere with vinyl pressing if you’re planning to take that route.

The decision as to whether to filter the sub-synth is purely a question of what kind of low-end tonal enhancement you’re looking for. With a triangle wave, in particular, you might not feel any need to filter it at all, although I do personally find myself employing some kind of low-pass filter to restrict its input to the lower octaves in most cases. The slope of the filter is typically quite critical, though, so if you can find yourself something with a variable roll-off slope, that does give you a useful amount of extra control. However, I wouldn’t use a resonant filter in this kind of application unless that filter is set to track the synth oscillator’s pitch, otherwise the filter’s resonant peak ends up boosting different harmonics as the note pitches change, and this makes the sub-bass synth less likely to blend consistently with the main bass part.

One final point to make is that sub-bass synth parts usually need to be controlled quite tightly in terms of dynamic range, or else they can really eat into your track’s overall headroom.

It’s also usually sensible to avoid having a sub-heavy kick sound when there’s a prominent sub-bass synth underpinning the bass line, for similar reasons. There’s only so much space down there, so if you want massive, subby bass, you either have to sacrifice some of the kick’s weight or turn down the overall level of your track to accommodate the low-frequency build-up.

[mrwonderful]

Use ya ears playboy. Rob pap got a good bass vst. My cuh got that n his trunk slaps.

[Jpchartrand]

big up for the feedback. Thanks!

First off let me just clarify that I do use my ears. I've been recording and mixing for over 10 years and I'm satisfied with my level for everything except the big 808 kicks/subs. I don't understand because I can mix techno with super heavy bass no problem but when it comes to hip hop, I just can't get the result I want.

My most successful attempt so far was with a square wave in Massive. Yeah it sounded ok, but nowhere near what I hear in the songs mentionned above.
I guess my question revolves more around mixing. What I mean is...what do you do once you have the good sub sound? Do you add distortion or overdrive to it? I've been bussing mine to be able to add a little saturation and get the harmonics to stand out more.

[KT1]

Originally Posted by Jpchartrand

big up for the feedback. Thanks!

First off let me just clarify that I do use my ears. I've been recording and mixing for over 10 years and I'm satisfied with my level for everything except the big 808 kicks/subs. I don't understand because I can mix techno with super heavy bass no problem but when it comes to hip hop, I just can't get the result I want.

My most successful attempt so far was with a square wave in Massive. Yeah it sounded ok, but nowhere near what I hear in the songs mentionned above.
I guess my question revolves more around mixing. What I mean is...what do you do once you have the good sub sound? Do you add distortion or overdrive to it? I've been bussing mine to be able to add a little saturation and get the harmonics to stand out more.

I can totally understand using a send and para processing with some distortion etc. Blending in to add the harmonic content to taste as opposed to insert which may result in a little to much going on. What are you Bussing?

[Jpchartrand]

Originally Posted by KT1

I can totally understand using a send and para processing with some distortion etc. Blending in to add the harmonic content to taste as opposed to insert which may result in a little to much going on. What are you Bussing?

That's exactly what I do. I buss my sub bass and then use send for parallel processing.

Back to my original question...When I heard the super low bass in Headlines, I can't believe it's just sine/square wave...It sounds like there's more going on...

[chris carter]

As someone mentioned earlier. Square wave, add a LPF 3 or 4 poles (18 - 24dB/octave). Bring the LPF down in frequency until it's mostly just lows. Play the bassline with your song. Fiddle around with the LPF frequency until you get just enough harmonics coming through so it translates well. Now turn the sub bass all the way down to -inf. Now slowly bring it up until you feel it. Stop right there; you are done.

[Ezionjd]

Also realize that a lot of these bass heavy songs are mixed around, wait for it.. Bass

[AASteveo]

What kind of processing do you do to it?
I like RBass, Transient Designer, Pultec, sometimes MPX or Decapitator for some dirt.

A very common problem that a lot of people don't think about is the pitch of the kick versus the key of the song. If it is slightly off, it can create comb filtering if it's rubbing against some other track like a synth or bass. Also try ducking when it fights with another track.

[Jpchartrand]

Originally Posted by AASteveo

What kind of processing do you do to it?
I like RBass, Transient Designer, Pultec, sometimes MPX or Decapitator for some dirt.

A very common problem that a lot of people don't think about is the pitch of the kick versus the key of the song. If it is slightly off, it can create comb filtering if it's rubbing against some other track like a synth or bass. Also try ducking when it fights with another track.

I usually use Transient designer, maxxbass & Decapitators so I think we're pretty much on the same page. I spend the right time making sure the kick and sub basses are aligned on pitch. I think I'm going to make some samples and upload here for your feedback. I'll upload tonight. Thanks!

[Jpchartrand]

Also...I'm not trying to make a song with super loud 20hz-100hz lol

I'm trying to get that loud perceived bass sound... When I listen to Headlines...It's not even that the bass is loud...it's just that the pitch is SO low but I can still hear it really clearly.

[TYPHY]

Are you taking about the Drake song "Headlines"?

That's just a typical but good 808 sample with some distortion.

[RonGherkins]

Originally Posted by KT1

From sound on Sound:

steer clear of detuned multi-oscillator patches, because the ‘beating’ between the two detuned layers may cause the sub-synth’s fundamental frequency to fluctuate unacceptably in level.

so true.

good tips in general KT

[Ezionjd]

Originally Posted by Jpchartrand

Also...I'm not trying to make a song with super loud 20hz-100hz lol

I'm trying to get that loud perceived bass sound... When I listen to Headlines...It's not even that the bass is loud...it's just that the pitch is SO low but I can still hear it really clearly.

Oh i see now, that's another story.
I thought you were trying to build your track around the bass, in which case when mixing you should eq everything around that.
If you want it to stand out, i remember from an earlier post something about the bass being replayed an octave higher and leveled to taste.
Apparently they used to do this way back, in order for the bass to be audible on AM radio :-/

[tdbcarshowking]

The 9 Piece Sub Bass is just a 808 type sample played at different pitches. I attached the sample. Just load it in your favorite sampler and set the polyphony to mono so that the last note played cuts off the previous. The sample is note F. I hope this helps.

[KT1]

Originally Posted by Jpchartrand

That's exactly what I do. I buss my sub bass and then use send for parallel processing.

Back to my original question...When I heard the super low bass in Headlines, I can't believe it's just sine/square wave...It sounds like there's more going on...

I think Youre mixing things up a bit. 99% of good sub bass is simple fundamental shtuff. The meat of the patch is usually independent mid range like an octave up. In some cases it is a patch with a sub osc. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. When recreating these patches I rarely got what I want with a sub patch alone.

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[Rush84]

I found bass to be extremeley difficult in my tiny room without using multiple sets of headphones and a reference track maybe your room is lying to you?
(apologies if this is old hat and you have it covered already)

I flip regularly between over ears, monitor style earbuds, cheap earbuds (exaggerated bass) my rubbish monitors and my blackberry handset

Before I found this way of working I could tweak a bassline for years and it still wouldnt sit right because my room was screwing it
( I suffered this in ignorance for a looooong time I mean I really lost sleep over it for years )

Another idea is

Rather than mix leaving lots of space for the bass @ <200 which would probably be rather 'trap'ish sounding
( I do this sometimes) , maybe you could try distortion or even just a clean copy -running parallel, eq the new copied/distorted track into a freq range or solo a very thin band with a multiband plug - pick a less busy freq range to place it and/or notch a space out of the other elements if there isn't enough space already

Let that thin freq band which mirrors the bass be really clear in its little pocket,

you can make the bass audible and felt without using much headroom it can really trick the ear by setting upper and lower boundary for a sound making it appear fuller when it's really quite hollow/empty between the sub and the upper layer
(hope this makes sense )

Very much like the am radio octave trick described but I don't always pick the octave of the bass to 'fit' it in cos that space may be occupied, i just find space where it feels good and doesn't clash and eq it ( the added layer) into that space, eq the space out of the other elements if needed


I use this technique but take all with pinch of salt, this is something I do
it has worked for me before with bass that gets lost in a busy track ,
in tandem with the swapping from phones to fone to earbuds to blackberry to monitors to make sure the effect sounded right

Hope this helps, i feel it's something to try and welcome any further thoughts on this

[chronmaster]

I like square subs. I like to gate the bass to the kick, so that when the kick hits the gate opens. This allows me to run the sub bass through my drum buss which allows me to compress the kick and sub together creating a super tight bass. Also, I find that a multi-band comp with just the low band engaged, compressing the frequencies between 20hz-120hz can help create a really tight sub bass sound. In general, keep my subs turned down real low because in a club... BOOM.

[4damind]

A synth with sub-oscillators (sine/square/saw) is very useful like Fxpansion Strobe. Some distortion effect like the Cubase Quadrafuzz or Fabfilter Saturn can also help and there are also some of this analog LP filters like the Moogerfooger very usable for fattening up (or some of this analog modelled filters like the UAD Moog, Fxpansion Etch etc)
To transfer this sub-bass nice to different systems, Maxxbass or RenBass is IMO important

[KT1]

Originally Posted by 4damind

A synth with sub-oscillators (sine/square/saw) is very useful like Fxpansion Strobe. Some distortion effect like the Cubase Quadrafuzz or Fabfilter Saturn can also help and there are also some of this analog LP filters like the Moogerfooger very usable for fattening up (or some of this analog modelled filters like the UAD Moog, Fxpansion Etch etc)
To transfer this sub-bass nice to different systems, Maxxbass or RenBass is IMO important

Actually saturn - although a very different sound than the classic Analogue style distortion does allow for multi-band and even modulation. Great tool.

In my experience Bass enhancers can be a little dangerous if your environment isn't ideal.

Personally I can't (personal) create or provide a level of comfort in the SUB range without some form of visual aid. Specrum analysers are the most critical tool.

This is because you have a clear image of all harmonic content - The dynamic or modulation is also reflected in addition to the respective level vs rest of mix.

If you want a good tool to aid you in making these decisions and your room isn't ideal then a spectum + headphones is most likely to be the best result.

[Jpchartrand]

Thanks to you guys I had hope again last night and worked hard at it.

I was able to achieve decent results with the following:

MASSIVE Square-Sine OSC + LPF + Brauner Distortion FX (very little)

Added UBK-1 for a bit of tone+compression

Sent this to AUX on which I used saturn to saturate

Added my 808 kick (very little decay/release) which I also compressed just a little with UBK-1

Sent the kick to an AUX on which again I used saturn.

Listening to it this morning I feel like this is by far my best attempt. I listened to some pro songs also in my car to compare and although the "bass" level is quite similar, I find that on the pro songs the kick and sub lock together so much better. On my mix you can kinda feel that they're 2 different sounds...Or maybe I'm just over analyzing my production?

[3nterprise]

I use the sine bass from nexus it's all in the mixing and how you eq it, when I use a sub bass I like to use it with a short thumpy kick though because an 808 and sub bass at the same time can be a mess!

[Jpchartrand]

Originally Posted by 3nterprise

I use the sine bass from nexus it's all in the mixing and how you eq it, when I use a sub bass I like to use it with a short thumpy kick though because an 808 and sub bass at the same time can be a mess!

Yeah I understand what you mean...I have Nexus I should try the sine bass from it.

The 808 kick I used is pretty dry + I put a really fast attack sidechain compressor on my sub bass and also eq's my kick to leave room for subs.

Can you give an example of a kick you use with sine basses?

[BezowinZ]

Originally Posted by KT1

Personally I can't (personal) create or provide a level of comfort in the SUB range without some form of visual aid. Specrum analysers are the most critical tool.

This is because you have a clear image of all harmonic content - The dynamic or modulation is also reflected in addition to the respective level vs rest of mix.

If you want a good tool to aid you in making these decisions and your room isn't ideal then a spectum + headphones is most likely to be the best result.

Any recommendations? Since my move to the basement (small room, low ceiling), I've been considering one of these.

[KT1]

Originally Posted by Jpchartrand

That's exactly what I do. I buss my sub bass and then use send for parallel processing.

Back to my original question...When I heard the super low bass in Headlines, I can't believe it's just sine/square wave...It sounds like there's more going on...

Yes stock. I use abletons accurate spectrum. Most daws have something similar. I use dt880 hp.

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