SP-1200 Swing

[Ezionjd]

Originally Posted by halcyo

Another poster has said that a few of us are wrong about this, so our point is invalid

*nods and sighs*

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by xanax

i don't think he's talking about ppq resolution setting like on the beat thang (the only drum machine to my knowledge that has variable ppq settings) i think he just meant when the 2 machines are at the same quantize resolution (like 58% swing @1/16th)

this

swing just means that in a 1/16 quantize setting (for example), some of the notes you tap will be slotted either before or after a normal 16th note. think hi-hats.

some of the notes will fall right onto the 16th note, just like a neutral 1/16 setting. The greater percentage of swing, the greater percentage of notes that fall outside the normal 1/16 grid. I never thought about it, but I would guess that the 1,2,3 and 4 of the beat never swing. In other words, where the kick fall on the 1 and 3 and snare on the 2 and 4, those are the anchors of the beat.

anyway...

in the case of the SP and MPC; even though both might be set to the same swing percentage, the swing is in different places. the MPC might have certain notes dropping behind or ahead of the grid, while the SP has those same notes dropping right onto it.

and vice versa

[Hobbs_Won]

I just set my PPQ in FL Studio to 24 ppq and turn off snap....and set the tempo to double time.....

[xanax]

@fooloof: there isn't just 1 type of swing although generally swing algorithms usually leave the 1,2,3,4 alone as you point out. the SP certainly has an odd swing, different then any of my drum machines (as u can see in my sig i have quite a few) it could have to do with the swing algo but mainly it has to do with the 24ppq, the low resolution gives it a much harder swing...

[DAH]

Low PPQ unless we talk about the fine tuning of swing settings does not mean shit. Jitter does. 66% - real triplet seting must be the same at the same BPM, if it is not by feel, then it is jitter. 3000 has a tight timing so I suppose SP1200 is not so much.

[xanax]

i don't think it has anything to do with jitter, when swing quantized the events aren't jittering.. again its just low ppq swing, i get similar results from my 60 when i half-tempo.... also the SP swing settings are set, there is no 66%, its either 54%, 58%, 63%, 67%, or 71%. anyways the SP swing is highly regarded amongst connoisseurs it's hardly a secret:

What are some of your general thoughts on the SP1200, it's features and pros & cons?
I loved the swing about it. The swing, the truncation.
The Lost Tapes: BUCKWILD interview from SP1200

How does the workflow of making a beat on the SP-1200 differ from other beatmaking machines and software?
[...] just the swing on the SP is crazy crazy crazy[...]
EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH SP-1200 FANATIC DJ DOOM (Reks, Cy Marshal, Wordsworth)

[DAH]

Originally Posted by xanax

i don't think it has anything to do with jitter, when swing quantized the events aren't jittering.

WHUT?
Whatever you quantize or not, there IS some jitter in HW and real-time playback of SW sequencers.

[xanax]

ok but what i'm talking about here is the SP swing, not midi jitter which is a whole other debate

[DAH]

Originally Posted by xanax

ok but what i'm talking about here is the SP swing, not midi jitter which is a whole other debate

The swing is fukkin the same,the liveness one gets is due to the jitter.
How come ariphmetically equal expressions can be different? I will tell how. Jitter.

[Zachariah]

Originally Posted by xanax

ok but what i'm talking about here is the SP swing, not midi jitter which is a whole other debate

Midi jitter plays a factor in the swing. The swing you are looking for is timing manipulation in the form of midi information. Once you have sequenced a program and apply swing to it, you are altering the sequenced information using a template of a certain swing. The swing is midi information for where samples are supposed to be placed in sequence. Some are locked in hard like the 1234 and others are programmed with a less strict "map." The looser samples in the sequence do follow rules for timing, but they are also randomized. This randomized sequence is what gives the sp12 a distinguishable swing, but it also is the product of uncontrollable factors such as midi jitter. Random is random. And midi jitter definitely plays a factor in how random it is.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk

[peterpiper0815]

I recommend instead of discuss this topic you could simply do the analyzing thing and do the math. All you need is at hand:
Use an impulse sample (a very short low pulsewave for example)
Tempo lets say 120 BPM cause its easy to calculate with
PPQ 24 and 48
1 bar at 120 = 2 seconds = 2000ms
1 quarter = 500 ms
1 tick in 24 ppq at 120 bpm = 1 quarter (500ms) / 24 = 20.83333 ms
1 tick in 48 ppq at 120 bpm = 1 quarter (500ms) / 48 = 10.41667 ms

first quarter in 48 ppq

10,41667
20,83334
31,25001
41,66668
52,08335
62,50002
72,91669
83,33336
93,75003
104,1667
114,58337
125,00004
135,41671
145,83338
156,25005
166,66672
177,08339
187,50006
197,91673
208,3334
218,75007
229,16674
239,58341
250,00008
260,41675
270,83342
281,25009
291,66676
302,08343
312,5001
322,91677
333,33344
343,75011
354,16678
364,58345
375,00012
385,41679
395,83346
406,25013
416,6668
427,08347
437,50014
447,91681
458,33348
468,75015
479,16682
489,58349
500,00016


Fist quarter in 24 ppq

20,83333
41,66666
62,49999
83,33332
104,16665
124,99998
145,83331
166,66664
187,49997
208,3333
229,16663
249,99996
270,83329
291,66662
312,49995
333,33328
354,16661
374,99994
395,83327
416,6666
437,49993
458,33326
479,16659
499,99992


now take the swing percentage and calculate where the sample sit (or should sit) in ms

then record 1 or 2 bars with different patterns ( 1/8th 1/16) and different swing settings to your daw and look where the samples sit exactly

etc. the rest is up to you


oh and thank you. I didn't know that the SP has only aa few swing percentages settings.

peace

[DAH]

Originally Posted by Zachariah

Midi jitter plays a factor in the swing. The swing you are looking for is timing manipulation in the form of midi information. Once you have sequenced a program and apply swing to it, you are altering the sequenced information using a template of a certain swing. The swing is midi information for where samples are supposed to be placed in sequence. Some are locked in hard like the 1234 and others are programmed with a less strict "map." The looser samples in the sequence do follow rules for timing, but they are also randomized. This randomized sequence is what gives the sp12 a distinguishable swing, but it also is the product of uncontrollable factors such as midi jitter. Random is random. And midi jitter definitely plays a factor in how random it is.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk

No.There is 0 (ZERO) events randomized after applying swing at 100%(like in 3000 or 1200). All of them are quantized. The only factor that remains is the midi jitter.

[DAH]

Originally Posted by peterpiper0815

I recommend instead of discuss this topic you could simply do the analyzing thing and do the math. All you need is at hand:
Use an impulse sample (a very short low pulsewave for example)
Tempo lets say 120 BPM cause its easy to calculate with
PPQ 24 and 48
1 bar at 120 = 2 seconds = 2000ms
1 quarter = 500 ms
1 tick in 24 ppq at 120 bpm = 1 quarter (500ms) / 24 = 20.83333 ms
1 tick in 48 ppq at 120 bpm = 1 quarter (500ms) / 48 = 10.41667 ms
....

peace

It s fukkin uncomfy to count in msecs, lets play from
1 quarter @120 BPM @4\4 is 22050 samples @44.1 Khz

[xanax]

i'll leave the math to mathematicians… but it kind of makes sense that a super low resolution like the SP's would make swing events not fall the same way on the grid with 24ppq then on 48 or 96ppq, no? another factor to consider is swing patterns, again there isn't just one universal swing pattern, this isn't randomizing but simply a specific swing pattern algorithm (i'm not talking % settings but the pattern determining what events on the grid are shifted), it's very possible those at e-mu made it different then on MPC's and other drum machines…hopefully i'm making sense..

[DAH]

Originally Posted by xanax

i'll leave the math to mathematicians… but it kind of makes sense that a super low resolution like the SP's would make swing events not fall the same way on the grid with 24ppq then on 48 or 96ppq, no? another factor to consider is swing patterns, again there isn't just one universal swing pattern, this isn't randomizing but simply a specific swing pattern algorithm (i'm not talking % settings but the pattern determining what events on the grid are shifted), it's very possible those at e-mu made it different then on MPC's and other drum machines…hopefully i'm making sense..

No, you just make yourself to look like an ignorant magics believer where there is none. And pure %s describe all the swing settings possible - it is just the correlation between the odd and the even consecutive notes` length.

[xanax]

ease up on the vodka dah...let's keep things civil...i'm no magic believer, i am trying to get at the bottom of this, it's why i started this thread... but the fact remains that at the same exact swing setting on the same exact beat pattern the feel is totally different on the MP & the SP. you say this is only due to jitter, i say it could be something else (ppq/swing pattern). i guess we could argue on end so let me turn this around, do you know of a way to make the MP swing the exact same way as the SP?

[CharlesEdward]

This shit is the gayest thread I've clicked on so far.

[xanax]

especially now that you're in it "charles edward" ...the reasoning behind starting the thread is simple.. i love the swing the SP has, it's the only drum machine i own that has it..but i were able to replicate that swing on my 60, well i'd maybe consider letting go of it (i've just been offered $2.5K for it)

[DAH]

Originally Posted by xanax

ease up on the vodka dah...let's keep things civil...i'm no magic believer, i am trying to get at the bottom of this, it's why i started this thread... but the fact remains that at the same exact swing setting on the same exact beat pattern the feel is totally different on the MP & the SP. you say this is only due to jitter, i say it could be something else (ppq/swing pattern). i guess we could argue on end so let me turn this around, do you know of a way to make the MP swing the exact same way as the SP?

It's like I'd tell you: ease up on the anal dildo xanax. now what?.. Do not like that, gross?
It is not due to the different swing patterns, there are none except moving even notes.
If you want, we can make some comparisons. like setting mpc3000 and sp1200 to the same BPM, apply the same swing setting - for 67 on the sp it must be either 66 or 67, does not matter, on the mp.

[peterpiper0815]

Originally Posted by xanax

i'll leave the math to mathematicians…

Originally Posted by xanax

.i'm no magic believer, i am trying to get at the bottom of this, it's why i started this thread...

You can't ignore the math and the analyze when you're REALLY trying to get to the bottom. You're liar :p

peace

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by xanax

again there isn't just one universal swing pattern, this isn't randomizing but simply a specific swing pattern algorithm (i'm not talking % settings but the pattern determining what events on the grid are shifted), it's very possible those at e-mu made it different then on MPC's and other drum machines

this is what I was trying to say in my other post. The swing patterns are NOT random, but vary according to the whatever sequencer is being used. The SP-1200's swing variations are not the same as those of the MPC 3K.

As for jitter, I don't think it is a factor in swing because jitter is basically how far off the midi notes are; and it is random. The tighter the clock, then the less jitter there is.


Jitter may be a factor in the overall recording process, but it would affect the beat whether it was swung or not.

Swing is programmed by the manufacturer/designer of the sequencer. it is decidedly not random.

[bigyo]

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at this thread... like someone else said.. turn off the quantize and make it swing however you want it to swing.. all of that crap about PPQ and midi jitter is nonsense .. You think Pete Rock,Dre and Dilla were worried about PPQ.. just rock that SP homie

[DAH]

the percent settings just fit the 6 ticks range within the even notes are moved is actually - 54% - 1 tick moving, 58 -2 ticks, 63 - 3 ticks, 67 - 4 ticks, 71 - 5 ticks. Moving by another 1 tick would effectively place the even note onto the 16th note position. So doubling the tempo was done to actually be able to use swing for 16ths, which was only implemented for 8ths due to the low PPQ resolution.
I have just checked the video where Dor demoes his 1200, there is some period where quantized ???? play solo - I recorded that and counted for midi jitter though not 1-sample precise but precise enough to state that there is some midi jitter defining the timing character of the SP. It seems that its clock drifts quite slowly (unlike the 2000, which does not drift much but makes some overshoots in timing like 60+samples or 3000 which is just tight).
The results obtained in samples between two consecutive notes:
14795
14794
14797
14788
14802
14809
14824
14772
14764
14799

[jpeg]

droppin science in here

[xanax]

Originally Posted by DAH

the percent settings just fit the 6 ticks range within the even notes are moved is actually - 54% - 1 tick moving, 58 -2 ticks, 63 - 3 ticks, 67 - 4 ticks, 71 - 5 ticks. Moving by another 1 tick would effectively place the even note onto the 16th note position. So doubling the tempo was done to actually be able to use swing for 16ths, which was only implemented for 8ths due to the low PPQ resolution.

wait i thought low ppq didn't mean shit for swing??! blablabla
nice back peddle work dah

Originally Posted by bigyo

at this thread... like someone else said.. turn off the quantize and make it swing however you want it to swing.. all of that crap about PPQ and midi jitter is nonsense .. You think Pete Rock,Dre and Dilla were worried about PPQ.. just rock that SP homie

they weren't worried about it but you best believe they knew the SP swung differently then MP's and other drum machines and exploited the feature..it's all over interviews, people loved the odd SP swing...sorry if you find it offensive to try and analyze what's the technical reasoning behind it .. oh and turning off quantize is besides the point, also not everyone is a drummer or araab muzik

[DAH]

Originally Posted by xanax

wait i thought low ppq didn't mean shit for swing??! blablabla
nice back peddle work dah

Are you playing a dumbass or are one indeed???
Low PPQ does not afect the swing by itself - it technically corresponds to the same percent setting in any sequencer.
the difference is in the midi jitter which can not be reproduced in any way.
the coarsity of 24 PPQs and the resulted limitations of the settings still can be easily reproduced in any higher PPQ sequencer

[xanax]

quit trying to be such an e-thugg, especially when you won't admit you're wrong... you just said it the low ppq gives a coarse swing, that's exactly what i've been saying all along... all i've been trying to ask is if the SP swing can be reproduced on an MP, try and stay constructive homie lose the aggro

Originally Posted by DAH

the coarsity of 24 PPQs and the resulted limitations of the settings still can be easily reproduced in any higher PPQ sequencer

care to explain how?

[DAH]

Originally Posted by xanax

quit trying to be such an e-thugg, especially when you won't admit you're wrong... you just said it the low ppq gives a coarse swing, that's exactly what i've been saying all along... all i've been trying to ask is if the SP swing can be reproduced on an MP, try and stay constructive homie lose the aggro

You really are failing so far to understand what I ve been saying. It is not the coarse settings - the same settings are on any MP, but the factual midi jitter - that gives the characer. Check the values in my post with the chart - it drifts with the swing disabled.

[DAH]

Originally Posted by xanax

care to explain how?

First I assure you it is you who will have to admit he's wrong.
As to re-create the settings - just use the coefficients in higher PPQ seqencers.
For 96 PPQ it will be 4.
So every even note's start instead of at 48 ticks must be at:
54 % - 13*4=52
58 - 14*4=56
63 - 15*4=60
67 - 16*4=64
71 - 17*4=68

[fooloof]

This shit is over my head. I'm outta here...