Comp on Kicks, Snares, etc...

[dsound]

It would be great to get a breakdown of how to use compression on Kicks, Snares, Hatz, etc...and how and when to use what comp where...like the 1176, LA-2A, Waves
RComp, etc....

I know there are no set rules and I've done lots of trial and error but if there are any pros on here who produce RnB/Rap...please let us know...

Thanks

[themaestro]

i use to use compression on all of my drums, but i recently stopped! i use a lot of sampled drums and hits that have probably been processed a million times before so compressing them again would be overkill. i may compress kicks and snares with a fast attack if they are layered under another samples so the attacks dont interfere with each other. besides that, i dont mess with the compressor at all anymore on drums. besides, i'm constantly meeting a ton of 'un-engineering' producers who have dope sounding beats and they dont use compressors or eq, so why should i rack my brain trying to figure out what works best.......last but not least, use the best sounds you can find, and if you mix your sounds so they sound really good, resample them and use those again....this will eliminate the need for further processing

[wallace]

I'm mostly use parrallel compression on drums to give it more support across the stereo field. Somestimes I'll use a compressor on a snare or something if I want to acccentuate the tail.

[Nutmeg II.]

If samples are shot from a sampler/software with ADSR envelopes I reach for the ADRS, because it gives the most controll over the way the sound gets sculpt.

With a SP1200 I would reach for a dbx160(X,XT but I also would use a A).
But all in all it very much depends on the sounds that the producer delivers.

Working on a SSL would start by seting up the channels gates and comps on all channels. This are settings that give your mix a signature sound, from there I would tweak on some channels for more GR if it needs more color.

[Jenre]

I try not to compress sampled kicks and snares too much because it can take away a lot of the magic of the original sample. You need to be careful and use compression sparingly. It's too easy to destroy the kicks punch or the snares snap with over-compression.

The most important thing is getting the attack time right, I think. Especially with snares. You want to let the initial punch of the kick or snap of the snare through relatively uncompressed otherwise you'll crush and destroy the most important part.

[Nutmeg II.]

Originally Posted by Jenre

I try not to compress sampled kicks and snares too much because it can take away a lot of the magic of the original sample. You need to be careful and use compression sparingly. It's too easy to destroy the kicks punch or the snares snap with over-compression.

The most important thing is getting the attack time right, I think. Especially with snares. You want to let the initial punch of the kick or snap of the snare through relatively uncompressed otherwise you'll crush and destroy the most important part.

That's why I like the dbx160x, they do KNOCK well.

[H-Rezz]

With a lot of sampled material like Hip Hop/RnB i don't compress the sounds directly to often , if i do it's to create a different sound from the orignal not because anything was wrong with the original , failing that i just change the sound ! Most samples have been beaten to death with comps so if it aint sitting nothing is going save it , best is to parrallel compress (Comp on Aux) , or split your sounds especially kick into frequential regions you can combine(if you want more control) and still parralell compress ! Sampled snr's might sometimes have to be eq'ed into submission instead of compressed unless you need a bit more thwack on the original source ! At the end of the day nothing is going to sound better than a good balance/pan with the right choice of sounds , also good tracking through a good AD is essential , worse thing you can do is try to fix a bad source(only gets worse) because of less than great tracking .

[dsound]

Yes, this is very helpful. I guess the mystery for me lies in how certain producers are able to get snare/clap combos to sound sweet like 'aaaah' rather than shrill and brittle. Looks like it's more about the actual samples used. BTW, I am using Reason 3.0 for beats. Maybe also, it's the mastering used to keep everything nice a lush and phat!

Does anyone recommend the Waves SSL channels?

[azwun25]

Originally Posted by dsound

Does anyone recommend the Waves SSL channels?

pretty much 99% of the heads on this forum!

[pympwell]

Originally Posted by azwun25

pretty much 99% of the heads on this forum!

No Doubt! SSL Bundle is very nice. Waves C4 is good to shape the relationship of the lo/lo mid/hi mid/hi freq on the sound....real good on 808's/Kicks. 1176 smaks on a lot of snares and almost anything tweeked properly. I also will comp individ drums AND comp the stereo drum buss using anthing from the fairchild plug to the focusrite d3 depending on the desired flavor of the song. I would try all of the ones you have available and see what works best for your 'vision' on how you should sound. Don't try too hard to sound like the crowd because nowadays many records have a universally generic sound to them [no offense to any of the slutz] and a lot of the mixes sound like the engineer followed a 'cookie cutter' recipe on mixing.

[Peter Project]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

! Sampled snr's might sometimes have to be eq'ed into submission instead of compressed unless you need a bit more thwack on the original source ! .

I totally agree. I was messing with compressors trying to get my kicks and snares to knock and bounce. Often if you can find where the transient or snap of the sample is (upper mids) and boost that a touch, it will sound way snappier. Far more that screwing with compressors which are often decreassing the dynamic range when used in the wrong hands.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by Peter Project

I totally agree. I was messing with compressors trying to get my kicks and snares to knock and bounce. Often if you can find where the transient or snap of the sample is (upper mids) and boost that a touch, it will sound way snappier. Far more that screwing with compressors which are often decreassing the dynamic range when used in the wrong hands.

Absolutely correct , remember there is a barrier with compression, to much actually makes things sound smal and compact

Hip Hop is not a live form of music so what dynamics exactly are we try to control ? The inconsistent snr of the drummer

[Methlab]

I think the most important part to getting your drums to knock right is :

Picking the right sounds

pitching them right. this is really the most important. I use my ears and pitch different samples different ways.

slicing the transients correctly so the layers glue together correctly

proper panning and EQ

maybe compress the drum buss in parallel if it needs it.

[halfguard]

ok, im a dummy......can someone explain compressing a buss in parallel....thanxxxxxx

[H-Rezz]

Simple, instead of putting a Rev on a eff bus wack a comp on it , feed you kicks and snrs into it or whatever part of the drums , smash that comp hard and feel the grit ! Turn up eff send to your liking ....

Make sure you have delay compensation on when doing this in Logic,Cubase etc

[fn86]

what exactly do you mean with
"slicing the transients correctly so the layers glue together correctly"

could you explain it in simple terms please

[TTB]

Its always good to start with Good drum samples....
But I like using MCDSPs CompressorBank for Drums.

" If the Drums aint Tight, The Beat aint Right! "

-HAVOC of MOBB DEEP

-T

[Maddstone]

Originally Posted by themaestro

besides, i'm constantly meeting a ton of 'un-engineering' producers who have dope sounding beats and they dont use compressors or eq, so why should i rack my brain trying to figure out what works best.......

Ur spot on there.It blows my mind sometimes when I hear those very producers u speak of and they actually show that there's absolutely not compression and almost no EQ in the chain.Just tight mixing, good accentuation and tight good quality sample choices.The latter being very important cause if the sample source is not that great, it could have the track suffering from a little less impact.

[Maddstone]

Originally Posted by Methlab

pitching them right. this is really the most important. I use my ears and pitch different samples different ways.

slicing the transients correctly so the layers glue together correctly

The first point is something stressed quite some by Storch actually as well.And many agree that if the pitch isnt there, the total dynamic gain of the track can be reduced by a few, which doesnt help the cause.So the pitch is all important, together with good quality samples.

Now the second point, u have me curious bout the slicing of transients as well.I'm not too familiar with this myself, though I've heard it in passing but never actually paid enough attention to it.U have my attention now.Pls do enlighten and enquiring mind.thumbsup

[Jeffason]

just make sure your samples start off good! and by the time the beat is multi band compressed / limited it should sound bangin !

[fn86]

transient slicing?

[pan]

Originally Posted by Jeffason

just make sure your samples start off good! and by the time the beat is multi band compressed / limited it should sound bangin !

Originally Posted by fn86

transient slicing?

I heard of gurus cutting every single snare transient at the peak to get a better attack out of them ... myth??? Holy grail???





I guess, it's about "clean" material with collective attack and phase?

n

[Zacchino]

Originally Posted by Methlab

I think the most important part to getting your drums to knock right is :

Picking the right sounds

pitching them right. this is really the most important. I use my ears and pitch different samples different ways.

slicing the transients correctly so the layers glue together correctly

proper panning and EQ

maybe compress the drum buss in parallel if it needs it.

I think I just kind of work just like you do Methlab.


When I make a beat, especially for drumz, here's the two questions I ask myself :

First, "what snare sound would be great on this melody"

Second, "In which space would the drum be" (very very important question).

Then, I start "shopping" for one sound that go to the closest thing I would've imagine, without its natural release / reverb if possible (I consider the attack at first).

If it just sits, musically speaking, well in the melody, then I start mixing with basic equing, and just add convultion reverb if I don't want my whole track to have a "minimal" style.

If I don't find the right sound, that's more complicated. As much complicated as when you've found the right sound, but its quality doesn't reach your needs .

PS : sometime, "radio" style drums heat up the dancefloor as good, as we've understood when people were beginning to make hot beats with 2nd handed SP1200 I guess.

So, if it's not high-quality, or doesn't have any stereo field, I just layer the sounds. Sometime it happens that I layer the same sound, but with 2 different equing process.

I rarely pitch my drumz, but that's another whole dimension of creating multiple/Single layered snares I should more think about : the Neptunes pitched their snares when they didn't have real drums, so that the snare sound like a Picollo snare, or something close to it // Yes, that's really a simple and smart move that the not-wealthy genious do // Sometime, the less gear/tools you have, the better it is, we all know it.

When I've reach at max 4 layers of snares, I take away every bothering transient of it with an EQ, and SYNC them propperly (syncing is very important too, so you can have one snare making the attack, and another making the release, etc...).
In this case, Compressing is not needed,. You just need a good limiter that won't harsh your sound into something earcandy for the ears, but not for the whole song.

After I found the right snare for the right song, I do the same thing for the kicks, and Hi Hats. After having mixed the drums so that it sounds like everything has the same color, I start wondering "where should be the drum, ?", and then I start mixing it according to the sound, controlling the stereo field, brightness, & presence of my beat.

As you can see, compression has a small part in this drumkit creation process. I just find compression usufull for hit hats, maracas, and other ethnical and world percussions. But still, it can be usefull when your bass is bothering my kick's punch / distinction.


Anyway that's just my way of doing things.

This thread a really interresting. Thanx for the guy who started it (dsound).

[Methlab]

hey guys...when i said slice the transients, this is what i meant:

I open Battery

I load in my drum samples.

I then group them by drum and solo a group in Cubase (kick for example).

I adjust the start and stop points of each sample by ear. So for a kick, I may have 4 samples going. So for each one, I adjust the start point so they all hit at exactly the same time.

Doing this by ear is the only way. You will notice that your drums will glue together more and will hit much harder this way. You may visually see the filter lining up the 0 crossing of the transient, but trust me, you have to listen to get it perfect.

[fn86]

do you use the graphical envelope (the one at the bottom to the right) when slicing the transients in battery?

and what did exactly mean with:

"You may visually see the filter lining up the 0 crossing of the transient, but trust me, you have to listen to get it perfect."

that you have to adjust the start-point in the envelope view by ear and not by eye to get it correct?

[Methlab]

yes and yes. gotta use your ears.

[romeojesus]

well...I use compression on 90% of the drum patterns I do...
mostly 160a on the bassdrum and bss dpr402 on the drum bus (bass drum, snare, hihat) to glue things together...
the bss is great because it is a very fast compressor (attack/release) and it has a
de-esser on every channel...and that deesser is my secret weapon when it comes
to taming hihats and snares that come out to harsh sounding on the drum bus..

I have to add that I do not use samplelibraries..strictly vinyl (no hiphop records though)

for me its very important that the programmed drums sound like a original break alone and unless the elements (bd,sn,hihat) fit perfectly together in the first place
my compressor setup as described above helps me to bend things
in the right direction

[Peter Project]

Alright. I gotta share this. I generally use all my drums off vinyl as well. Same as above. I wanted to start writing my own breaks though that I could leave as a whole and not have to worry about sample clearance. My problem with this is all the "real" drum sounds in Logic and other samplers sound TOO good. They dont sound vintage and classic. I couldn't wait to get a real rummer into my studio, So I wrote a bunch of breaks in Logics EXS and split up the channels so I could EQ and mix them individually. Ran them through a bit of the UAD-1 Plate 140. Then MASHED them against my unbelievably crappy 1/4' tape machine which hasn't been aligned or biased in it's lifetime. Then dumped that into the MPC and began chopping. I have NEVER rocked MPC drums that sound like that! Not a single compressor was touched in the making of these drum sounds.

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by romeojesus

well...I use compression on 90% of the drum patterns I do...
mostly 160a on the bassdrum and bss dpr402 on the drum bus (bass drum, snare, hihat) to glue things together...
the bss is great because it is a very fast compressor (attack/release) and it has a
de-esser on every channel...and that deesser is my secret weapon when it comes
to taming hihats and snares that come out to harsh sounding on the drum bus..

I have to add that I do not use samplelibraries..strictly vinyl (no hiphop records though)

for me its very important that the programmed drums sound like a original break alone and unless the elements (bd,sn,hihat) fit perfectly together in the first place
my compressor setup as described above helps me to bend things
in the right direction

It's funny that you mentioned the deesser as a secret weapon. Just recently, I've been working on mixing this song and getting the vocals to sit within the mix properly. First of all, I always load up several reference tracks that might share the same feel, character, or instruments that I'm using in the whatever song I'm working on at the time. Cool. Oh yeah, I'm new to mixing...so what I'm about to explain might not be a revelation to some of you.
Anyway, so I'm listening to my song and then to the reference track. I noticed that my vocals had a little too much high end. I found this out by turning up my track loud and then the reference track. It became obvious to me when my vocals were becoming more and more ear piercing and just downright irritating...the louder the volume got. On the flipside, the ref. track still maintained it's balanced, even sound. Now...I could tell slight differences when both tracks were low but it became extremely apparent when the volume was pushed to the extremes. So I had diagnosed a problem....cool. Remember, I'm still trying to get the vocals to not only sit properly in the mix but also, to get them to not disturb anything else around it and to be heard completely. Cool.
Make a long story short...first I tried eqing it to death and it worked somewhat..but not to my liking. It still just wasn't comparable. I ended up putting the waves deesser on that baby with the wideband mode on...knocking only about 0.4 db off the top....
And all of a sudden the vocal had more focus, the highs weren't so harsh and earpiercing and even more importantly...it gave the snare more of a pocket. It was like the I could damn near see the vocal and the snare, which magically appeared to reside just above the vocal. I just learned this today and it really open the gate a lot wider for me on what is being done in the mixing process by the pros. Before today...I never paid the deesser no mind because I thought it was for super obvious "s" problems. Now I really see how important it is in just maintaining the whole high frequency range and keeping things from being chaotic, irritating, and unfocused.

Why didn't anyone tell me about this a lot sooner? Can anyone contribute anything useful, relating to this?

[romeojesus]

>Then MASHED them against my unbelievably crappy 1/4' tape machine which hasn't been aligned or biased in it's lifetime. Then dumped that into the MPC and began chopping. I have NEVER rocked MPC drums that sound like that! Not a single compressor was touched in the making of these drum sounds


welln in a way you DID use a compressor, because "mashing"/printing your drums
on tape at high levels means you did benefit from an effect called "tape compression"....