I've tried to look this up and there isn't to much on the topic at all so sorry if this has been covered. I would like to know people's opinion on placing things like vocals in key and if it's even necessary. Say I have someone sending me a song to mix do you guys pitch vocals up/down to place in a certain key to match with the other key instruments? If so how do you find out what key is being played. I've heard many engineers talk about tuning the bass and kick in tune with the song n so forth. I'd just like to get some more info. Also other threads about the subject would be awesome to read.
I've only really done it with Vocals. I use melodyne and just sort of feel it when shifting either up or down to be in key. Sometimes you'll go up when you should have gone down, and it just won't sound right, so then you shift it the way it should have gone. I do think it can be over-done, and having everything absolutely perfectly in tune can make it a little less human. Sometimes a singer might just slip a note out of key for a split second, but it'll sound more natural than pitch-correcting that note... in that case just let it slide. It'll arguably have passed too quick for anyone to notice.
Yea I agree I use melodyne for the same but I've never took the whole vocal and slipped it to a different key to match the key of the beat. But I've messed with engineers who do and sometimes it can sound really really good I just dot know how he knows what key and why n so forth. Probably something I should have asked when I seen him.
In melodyne I will move certain words up or down if they sound off but I just do it by ear I've never said "well this key is playing in d and she's singing in a minor so it's not really sounding right.
Just use melodyne to see what key the song is in and go from there. It makes bass fit better with instrumentation when in key, I do it with 808s mainly. I think having everything in key makes for a tighter sounding song, like everything belongs together.
Sometimes the chords (or melodic bits) will tell you exactly what key the song is in. For instance, if the song goes Dmin Gmin Amin Dmin then the song is in D natural minor (one flat), or Dmin Gmaj Amin Dmin is in C major/D dorian (just white keys).
If you have enough chords/notes in the music to tell you what the key is, then you can just plot down what notes are being used (Dmin Gmin Amin = DFA GBbD ACE = DEFGABbC, etc).* Maybe they add up to 7, in which case you have a full proper scale/key, and that will probably tell you what the vocals should do.
You might be light on chords/notes in the music (e.g. D minor vamp) though, in which case your ear has to do most of the work.
Transposing the vocals:
So let's say you've determined your key (e.g. C major), now it's time to shoehorn your vocal melody in there.
So, let's say the vocal melody is Ab Bb C. Now, how do we relate that to C major?
Well, Cmajor is comprised of CDEFGABC, which is a whole-step (C-D), a whole step (D-E), a half-step (E-F) a whole-step (F-G), a whole-step (G-A), a whole-step (A-B), and a half-step (B-C). So, WWHWWWH.
Ab Bb C is comprised of a whole-step (Ab-Bb) and another whole-step (Bb-C). So, WW.
Now, looking at C major, we see 3 "WW" sequences (the second two overlap). Strictly speaking, this is what we have for options. We can have the new, transposed vocal melody start on C, F or G.
Now, here's where you're forced (at least partly) to use your ears again. Chords will help determine where you choose to transpose it, but there are so many other factors (e.g. the way the chords are voiced, how loud each note in the music is, etc), that you should probably let your ears and creativity do the work.
Now, once you've settled on your new starting note, you just have to get from here to there. So, Ab to C is up 4 notes ("+4" in classic sampler language), Ab to F is up 9 ("+9") or down 3 ("-3"), and Ab to G is up 11 ("+11") or down 1 ("-1").
Other considerations:
Now, the above is just cold lifeless math. Here are some other factors to plug into the equation:
-Giving each chord its own scale/key
-Purposeful dissonance
-Keeping the vocals natural-sounding
-Keeping/making color tones for texture and/or interest
-Keeping/making energy and excitement at the cost of strict consonance
...and a million other things. Good luck!
*Unless you're a nerd like me, who has all that junk committed to memory
Sometimes the chords (or melodic bits) will tell you exactly what key the song is in. For instance, if the song goes Dmin Gmin Amin Dmin then the song is in D natural minor (one flat), or Dmin Gmaj Amin Dmin is in C major/D dorian (just white keys).
If you have enough chords/notes in the music to tell you what the key is, then you can just plot down what notes are being used (Dmin Gmin Amin = DFA GBbD ACE = DEFGABbC, etc).* Maybe they add up to 7, in which case you have a full proper scale/key, and that will probably tell you what the vocals should do.
You might be light on chords/notes in the music (e.g. D minor vamp) though, in which case your ear has to do most of the work.
Transposing the vocals:
So let's say you've determined your key (e.g. C major), now it's time to shoehorn your vocal melody in there.
So, let's say the vocal melody is Ab Bb C. Now, how do we relate that to C major?
Well, Cmajor is comprised of CDEFGABC, which is a whole-step (C-D), a whole step (D-E), a half-step (E-F) a whole-step (F-G), a whole-step (G-A), a whole-step (A-B), and a half-step (B-C). So, WWHWWWH.
Ab Bb C is comprised of a whole-step (Ab-Bb) and another whole-step (Bb-C). So, WW.
Now, looking at C major, we see 3 "WW" sequences (the second two overlap). Strictly speaking, this is what we have for options. We can have the new, transposed vocal melody start on C, F or G.
Now, here's where you're forced (at least partly) to use your ears again. Chords will help determine where you choose to transpose it, but there are so many other factors (e.g. the way the chords are voiced, how loud each note in the music is, etc), that you should probably let your ears and creativity do the work.
Now, once you've settled on your new starting note, you just have to get from here to there. So, Ab to C is up 4 notes ("+4" in classic sampler language), Ab to F is up 9 ("+9") or down 3 ("-3"), and Ab to G is up 11 ("+11") or down 1 ("-1").
Other considerations:
Now, the above is just cold lifeless math. Here are some other factors to plug into the equation:
-Giving each chord its own scale/key
-Purposeful dissonance
-Keeping the vocals natural-sounding
-Keeping/making color tones for texture and/or interest
-Keeping/making energy and excitement at the cost of strict consonance
...and a million other things. Good luck!
*Unless you're a nerd like me, who has all that junk committed to memory
would you mind taking this song as an example to show how to detect the key just by listening to it, applying the above theory??
would you mind taking this song as an example to show how to detect the key just by listening to it, applying the above theory??
I can just tell from listening that the root note of the chord right when the vocals come in the key of the song ( I think it's F but my bass might be outta tune).
The thing is, it's got a couple passing chords (e.g. D7b9 and G diminished) and false tonics (like Dmaj7 in the bridge).
Admittedly, the method I proposed above gets tricky with a ton of chords, whereupon some discretion is necessary. In such cases it might makes sense to treat each chord like its own scale/key, or to group chords into sensible clusters.
I can just tell from listening that the root note of the chord right when the vocals come in the key of the song ( I think it's F but my bass might be outta tune).
The thing is, it's got a couple passing chords (e.g. D7b9 and G diminished) and false tonics (like Dmaj7 in the bridge).
Admittedly, the method I proposed above gets tricky with a ton of chords, whereupon some discretion is necessary. In such cases it might makes sense to treat each chord like its own scale/key, or to group chords into sensible clusters.
Awesome.!!! THAT is what I'd love to be able to do....
Do it up!
There are lots of books out there to teach theory & ear training. There are also some apps for iPhone, & iPad. I'd guess there'd be some for Android also. Off the top of my head I can't remember the names of said apps but I know they do exist.
I'm sure Google & YouTube could be of help too. I've actually got to allot some more time to theory & ear training myself. If you force yourself to an hour or so two times a week learning and practicing you'd be surprised how quick you'll pick it up. If you try a half an hour to an hour every day then I'd guess it'd be an even quicker learn. Start by googling "music theory & ear training" and see what comes up. You can teach yourself quicker than learning any instrument if you've got the right instruction.
Perhaps someone with the knowledge on here can suggest, textbooks, apps, and or share links helpful to this here cause. If I can remember some o the ones that were highly recommended to me I'll post them on here.
Yea I agree I use melodyne for the same but I've never took the whole vocal and slipped it to a different key to match the key of the beat. But I've messed with engineers who do and sometimes it can sound really really good I just dot know how he knows what key and why n so forth. Probably something I should have asked when I seen him.
In melodyne I will move certain words up or down if they sound off but I just do it by ear I've never said "well this key is playing in d and she's singing in a minor so it's not really sounding right.
If a vocalist singing isn't "in key", I'd probably ask them if that's what was really meant...because it'll probably sound horrible. In that case, either mix as is and never listen to it again, or send it back and ask them to rerecord so it sounds good.
If you're asking if you should fix odd notes that are out of tune, if it's painfully bad I fix it and say I've done some fairy dusting. If its borderline I'd ask. If its character I leave it. I'll often tighten vocals timing-wise if its necessary for the style and not even mention it because many people don't realize how tight some things have to be.
If you're talking about shifting rapping up and down in key, ie matching a non-melodic element...just do what sounds good. Rapping is never strictly speaking in a key, it's not a melodic element, but there will be elements of pitch, and so some things might sound better higher or lower.
As ever, there's no rules other than what sounds good. Other than try to sing in the same key as your track....
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I can just tell from listening that the root note of the chord right when the vocals come in the key of the song ( I think it's F but my bass might be outta tune).
The thing is, it's got a couple passing chords (e.g. D7b9 and G diminished) and false tonics (like Dmaj7 in the bridge).
Admittedly, the method I proposed above gets tricky with a ton of chords, whereupon some discretion is necessary. In such cases it might makes sense to treat each chord like its own scale/key, or to group chords into sensible clusters.
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