Curious on how to approach this situation... Management w. Label connections, help.

[Flip_]

If you want some constructive advice, I think you are looking at it wrong. You keep saying the word "work" in your post. Is making music really work?

Most artists get their start as a stepping stone for someone else, paying their dues, etc..

Unless you have some songs produced already and have other suitors willing to pay you more, I don't see what you have to lose. Its not like making music is tortuous hard labor, lol. Unless you are worried the song will become big and you won't get paid. But even then, worse case scenario is you got the credit and would likely become in-demand for future gigs that are high paying upfront. And you'd have some negotiating power then, which it sounds like you don't have yet. In other words, if this becomes your big break, isn't that payment enough?

If you have bigger, better things lined up instead and don't have the time, then thats another story. You'd have to try to fit both in, or make a decision on whats more valuable and decide whether you really believe in this girl or not..

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by Flip_

If you want some constructive advice, I think you are looking at it wrong. You keep saying the word "work" in your post. Is making music really work?

Most artists get their start as a stepping stone for someone else, paying their dues, etc..

Unless you have some songs produced already and have other suitors willing to pay you more, I don't see what you have to lose. Its not like making music is tortuous hard labor, lol. Unless you are worried the song will become big and you won't get paid. But even then, worse case scenario is you got the credit and would likely become in-demand for future gigs that are high paying upfront. And you'd have some negotiating power then, which it sounds like you don't have yet. In other words, if this becomes your big break, isn't that payment enough?

If you have bigger, better things lined up instead and don't have the time, then thats another story. You'd have to try to fit both in, or make a decision on whats more valuable and decide whether you really believe in this girl or not..

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it. You do have some pretty valid points in there.

[Flip_]

^no prob, I'd say go for it.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

I Just talked on the phone with a management team and apparently they have a young singer who has potential and they have a couple of connections with A&Rs.

I was asked to be a vocal producer for her but they also want me to produce 2 songs as well, since they liked my productions.

I asked what kind of compensation they would give, and they said, we'll give it to the right people, and she will definitely get a record deal. Labels are very interested in her, they just want to hear some hit songs made for her. At the same time they would ask who produced the tracks and possibly make me produce other artists.

I am asking what I should do because:

1. I don't want to be a stepping stone for an artist (They get what they need and move on)
2. I don't want to work for free.
3. I don't want to work so that I "might" get noticed as a producer by label.

what do you guys think? I'd like some pro's perspective, no hobbyists or people who aren't familiar with the music industry, thanks.

Ah, this.

I think you've answered your own question. If they are close to a record deal and want your services, tell them to pay. If they can't invest when they have something good going for them, they're not serious. You can offer them maybe a reduced rate if you really believe the artist has a shot - but I've heard this song a million and one times.

[Stackx]

Yea although doing that and even if they do take her and you get nothing for it at least you have the songs under your belt to show that you've done production for so and so.

I have not had a chance to work with any kind of labels yet so take my opinion as left over dinner. I just wanted to throw that view out there. Although you big guys probably already have hundreds of those under your belt lol.

[Reborn]

I think there are ways today to verify this type of a story. See some visuals of the artist, perhaps songs they have already recorded! If they have none of this I would be more skeptical. however there have been real situations where even in todays market someone with nothing tangible has got a deal from a relationship!

I'd say if your paperwork is in order there is no downside! If you make some great tunes and there is a real relationship at labels your music will get noticed! If what you are doing is not what they are looking for , you'll know that and probably find out how to tweak what your doing( we all do this anyway). Most important, it will stilll be your music and you can use it with another artist. Especially if you write the topline!

Worst case you will be smarter and harder to get over on in the future if it goes South! In the music business it is very true now that scared money(ormusic) don't make money(Money) LOL. All the best!


Jazztone

[Storyville]

The downside is you potentially devalue your work.

[Chris Lago]

Yeah I've heard that song too, I will send an email saying it's a no go, unless they pay me. She is not an incredible singer by any means, and I'd rather not put my name on it.

[yosemitesam]

I don't know how these things work and I'm curious. Would it be feasible to say something like, "Oh, she's guaranteed to get a record deal? Great, let's put that in writing. If these records aren't released on a label within a year, I get $x." And if you're lawyer could come up with actually binding language to that effect, you could find out if they're full of shit or not.

Also, production deals like this with unsigned artists often come with clauses that say things like you're guaranteed two songs on the artist's first album or something like that, right?

Sent from my DROIDX using Gearslutz App

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by yosemitesam

I don't know how these things work and I'm curious. Would it be feasible to say something like, "Oh, she's guaranteed to get a record deal? Great, let's put that in writing. If these records aren't released on a label within a year, I get $x." And if you're lawyer could come up with actually binding language to that effect, you could find out if they're full of shit or not.

Also, production deals like this with unsigned artists often come with clauses that say things like you're guaranteed two songs on the artist's first album or something like that, right?

Sent from my DROIDX using Gearslutz App

It really depends on the management team etc. I believe in getting paid for my time. If he's so good at getting record deals, he can get me one too! If he thinks I'm so good, he should pay me for my productions.

[RyanC]

For pop the norm between two peers would be a production fee AND splits. IE if she is Katy Perry and you are Dr Luke, on a new record, luke get's a rather substantial production fee to cover the cost of his studio bills, assistants, gear, session musicians, per diem, food, drugs, booze etc etc, and 50/50 splits. Guys like luke or ryan tedder even farm out the splits, and topliners get in there too (I know this first hand).

So if she is Katy Perry and you are Chris Lago, or RyanC or whatever, you would waive prod fees as long as the splits were in order. Hell I would even split 15/85 to her (or her and Ester Dean and Shellbeck or whatever) because I could leverage a Katy Perry cut into a substantial advance that would guarantee solid shots at future cuts.

If you don't have a pub deal, and she doesn't have a record deal then who is the katy perry and who is the dr luke? If you believe in her as a writer and your chemistry together sure, but if a label only sees her as an artist, all their own writers/producers will descend on her like flies on shit. And those guys have un-recouped advances leveraged off of co-writes so guess who gets the cuts?

Long story short, don't blow them off, but there is nothing wrong with defending your position. EG she is about to get a deal, and you have xyz going on. If the starting place is 50/50 splits AND a production fee, and they are offering less, then make them compensate for that, sure some amount of compensation would be that she is a half a step a head of you, but not light years ahead.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by RyanC

For pop the norm between two peers would be a production fee AND splits. IE if she is Katy Perry and you are Dr Luke, on a new record, luke get's a rather substantial production fee to cover the cost of his studio bills, assistants, gear, session musicians, per diem, food, drugs, booze etc etc, and 50/50 splits. Guys like luke or ryan tedder even farm out the splits, and topliners get in there too (I know this first hand).

So if she is Katy Perry and you are Chris Lago, or RyanC or whatever, you would waive prod fees as long as the splits were in order. Hell I would even split 15/85 to her (or her and Ester Dean and Shellbeck or whatever) because I could leverage a Katy Perry cut into a substantial advance that would guarantee solid shots at future cuts.

If you don't have a pub deal, and she doesn't have a record deal then who is the katy perry and who is the dr luke? If you believe in her as a writer and your chemistry together sure, but if a label only sees her as an artist, all their own writers/producers will descend on her like flies on shit. And those guys have un-recouped advances leveraged off of co-writes so guess who gets the cuts?

Long story short, don't blow them off, but there is nothing wrong with defending your position. EG she is about to get a deal, and you have xyz going on. If the starting place is 50/50 splits AND a production fee, and they are offering less, then make them compensate for that, sure some amount of compensation would be that she is a half a step a head of you, but not light years ahead.

Oh no no, it didn't even occured to them that I'd be getting splits, The only thing they said was that I was an amazing producer (you know, the stuff you say to try to pump a guy's ego out, and I'm weary of those) and the labels would hear my productions as being the greatest thing that man had ever created of course, so I would get asked to work with known artists and make a career, you know, the stuff that stays in the fairytales. Lot's of wishful thinking. The female singer can barely sing, and I don't think she'll make it on looks alone.

[Danny Downer]

Anybody that says something like: She / He / I will get a record deal really soon pays the full rate! THE ONLY DUDE I worked with to this point that got a record deal after I met him didn't drop that phrase one time :D

[SCDBM]

Sound like your setup to be used, ask a fee and ask how the management pays themselves ?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by Danny Downer

Anybody that says something like: She / He / I will get a record deal really soon pays the full rate! THE ONLY DUDE I worked with to this point that got a record deal after I met him didn't drop that phrase one time :D

Yeah, and I should do the same. Most people who really have things happening for them are usually pretty secretive about them.

Thanks for all the replies everyone, you are confirming that I approached the matter properly. I haven't produced another artist in a little while, been focusing on other things outside the music biz.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

Yeah I've heard that song too, I will send an email saying it's a no go, unless they pay me. She is not an incredible singer by any means, and I'd rather not put my name on it.

Then don't even think about putting your rate down. Sounds more like the kind of gig you would put your price UP for the way you describe it.

[Dayl]

**** it... just skip it

or

If they artist is dope... who cares, rack up some good music together

or

do it anyway because you shit awesome tunes by the hour.... no skin off your nose.

[Reborn]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

Oh no no, it didn't even occured to them that I'd be getting splits, The only thing they said was that I was an amazing producer (you know, the stuff you say to try to pump a guy's ego out, and I'm weary of those) and the labels would hear my productions as being the greatest thing that man had ever created of course, so I would get asked to work with known artists and make a career, you know, the stuff that stays in the fairytales. Lot's of wishful thinking. The female singer can barely sing, and I don't think she'll make it on looks alone.

That's all red flag my friend. I have been told by many a rapper they were the next Tupac who had 48 Bar verses. Sounds like you know the reality of the situation, Keep it moving.

[Chris Lago]

Alright, got the email back from them, case closed! Moving on to other things now, thanks everyone!

[MIDIMobster]

As long as they pay you an amount you're comfortable with I say go for it. There's really no downside to it after that. You said she's not a good singer, so use it as a personal challenge. if you can make a bad singer sound good (without going overboard on autotune and sounding like t-pain) then you can make a good artist sound great. Then there's her A&R connections. Say they listen to one of the songs you produced, they like the beat but not the girl singing it. they might end up just contacting you for more beats or for one of their artists to use that beat. alternately, they may like the song and beat, but not her singing so they might buy the song and have a big artist sing it. Then there's the chance she blows up and there she is with 2 songs produced by you.


Edit: Guess they weren't that interest :rofl:

[zzz]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

I Just talked on the phone with a management team and apparently they have a young singer who has potential and they have a couple of connections with A&Rs.

I was asked to be a vocal producer for her but they also want me to produce 2 songs as well, since they liked my productions.

I asked what kind of compensation they would give, and they said, we'll give it to the right people, and she will definitely get a record deal. Labels are very interested in her, they just want to hear some hit songs made for her. At the same time they would ask who produced the tracks and possibly make me produce other artists.

I am asking what I should do because:

1. I don't want to be a stepping stone for an artist (They get what they need and move on)
2. I don't want to work for free.
3. I don't want to work so that I "might" get noticed as a producer by label.

what do you guys think? I'd like some pro's perspective, no hobbyists or people who aren't familiar with the music industry, thanks.

What sup chris.

is that your manager ?

haha, congrats man !

is not it too much for you ? dont you think ?

haha, nice complain man !

they are watching your career.

they dont have a courage.

if you had dealed with your contract, then you have to do it.....no way.

how about talk to lawyer ?



i hope its help !

[WordIsBorn]

Originally Posted by RyanC

For pop the norm between two peers would be a production fee AND splits. IE if she is Katy Perry and you are Dr Luke, on a new record, luke get's a rather substantial production fee to cover the cost of his studio bills, assistants, gear, session musicians, per diem, food, drugs, booze etc etc, and 50/50 splits. Guys like luke or ryan tedder even farm out the splits, and topliners get in there too (I know this first hand).

So if she is Katy Perry and you are Chris Lago, or RyanC or whatever, you would waive prod fees as long as the splits were in order. Hell I would even split 15/85 to her (or her and Ester Dean and Shellbeck or whatever) because I could leverage a Katy Perry cut into a substantial advance that would guarantee solid shots at future cuts.

If you don't have a pub deal, and she doesn't have a record deal then who is the katy perry and who is the dr luke? If you believe in her as a writer and your chemistry together sure, but if a label only sees her as an artist, all their own writers/producers will descend on her like flies on shit. And those guys have un-recouped advances leveraged off of co-writes so guess who gets the cuts?

Long story short, don't blow them off, but there is nothing wrong with defending your position. EG she is about to get a deal, and you have xyz going on. If the starting place is 50/50 splits AND a production fee, and they are offering less, then make them compensate for that, sure some amount of compensation would be that she is a half a step a head of you, but not light years ahead.

Hey RyanC,

Great post. Thanks a lot on my side (although I'm not the OP).

1) However, when you say "50/50 splits" are you refering to royalties ? Could you please go into details as far as this is concerned.

2) Plus, would you recommend a lawyer to write the contract ? Or would a simple piece of paper signed by both parties and stating PRODUCTION FEE and ROYALTIES be enough :

"I, Joe Blow, agree to a 1000 dollar production fee per song, and 50/50 splits"

2) a- Paper versions or would scanned versions - exchanged per e-mail - suffice ?

3) And, another thing : business is always the awkward thing in an "artistic relationship"... but has to be done.

So when and how should one go about this, as a producer. Like :

To the artist (?) : "FIRST, we sign the contract, detailing exactly the production fee (ie. 1000 dollars per song) and 50/50 royalty splits ; THEN we do music." or what?


Thanks so much for any advice!

(other people, who have actual experience in these matters, please feel free, to chime in)

[zzz]

im not recommending talk to lawyer.

im talking about how keeping a motivaton as an producer.

im just saying is only about if you have to.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

Alright, got the email back from them, case closed! Moving on to other things now, thanks everyone!

Yup. Don't even worry about it. If you're ever hung up on it, I could introduce you to about ten people who "are in talks with labels" or "about to get a deal", and I don't think a single one of them will actually get there.

Hell, I know artists who are on labels that have no money, no talent, and no career, that while signed to serious labels are going no where fast. After a while, record deals stop being impressive.

[jrides]

You seriously asked them what kind of compensation they would give?

LOL

I would have told you the same thing. You seriously need a manager among other things cheif. Direct people there when they want you to do stuff. Let your manager TELL them what your rate is, if you can not afford to look like the bad guy.

Some greatest hits.....
"I don't get involved with the money aspect of things, I just do music. Talk to...."

"Sounds great. I don't what my upcoming schedule is like. Talk to... and get the details worked out"

If they run back to you to complain...

"My mgr has kids. He wont let me do sh&t for free anymore"
":Yeah my mgr says the scehdule is a little too tight right now. We will get up though... Good to see you again!"

Or just dont take the call / forward the call to your mgr....lol

I could make up a hundred more of those lol...

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by jrides

You seriously asked them what kind of compensation they would give?

LOL

I waould have told you the same thing. You seriously need a manager among other things cheif. Direct people there when they want you to do stuff. Let your manager TELL them what your rate is, if you can not afford to look like the bad guy.

I some greatest hits...
"My mgr has kids. He wont let me do sh&t for free anymore"
"I don't get involved with the money aspect of things, I just do music. Talk to...."

"Sounds great. I don't what my upcoming schedule is like. Talk to... and get the details worked out"


I could make up a hundred more of those lol...

Yessir. I even know a bunch of dudes who've set up alternate emails accounts for themselves that they use as a faceless, imaginary "manager" so they can avoid exactly this situation. Depending on your level of comfort with dealing with these kinds of people (I understand some folks might find the idea of faking a manager kinda shady or weird, and I'm not sure I'd disagree), you might find this approach to be very, very useful.

[0013]

I think it's even simpler:

The OP said he didn't think the singer was that good, which means they're probably not going to make it and the only reason to do it is if you need the money, in which case ask them to pay.

My advice to songwriters and producers who are trying to get established is to only ever work with artists you love. You are probably going to spend a lot of time on something that won't make you any money - at least you'll have something to listen to at the end that you're proud of!

[jrides]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Yessir. I even know a bunch of dudes who've set up alternate emails accounts for themselves that they use as a faceless, imaginary "manager" so they can avoid exactly this situation. Depending on your level of comfort with dealing with these kinds of people (I understand some folks might find the idea of faking a manager kinda shady or weird, and I'm not sure I'd disagree), you might find this approach to be very, very useful.

Dummy email. I love it. Prepaid cell for added impact. Ha!

I can be your fake mgr Chris. I have no problem kicking people in the teeth and cursing them out. They will love you and hate me.

"Chris is cool.. but muthaf%king jrides man... ghaad d@mn you can't get anything past that guy"

It will probably be a lot of fun shaking oft the crazies for ya. Just holla at my mgr, and we can get something going. Not sure what my schedule is right now..he has me working on a bunch of stuff. No big deal though, just need to get the details worked out with him.

[yosemitesam]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Yessir. I even know a bunch of dudes who've set up alternate emails accounts for themselves that they use as a faceless, imaginary "manager" so they can avoid exactly this situation. Depending on your level of comfort with dealing with these kinds of people (I understand some folks might find the idea of faking a manager kinda shady or weird, and I'm not sure I'd disagree), you might find this approach to be very, very useful.

I could see myself doing this approach only if I built up my "manager" to be a character with a British accent who has a long thin moustache that he twirls in his fingers and who always wears a black top hat and suit. And if the other party insisted on setting up dinner with me and my manager, and I had to go back and forth from the table to the bathroom, quickly changing outfits and switching characters, and constantly coming up with new explanations for why we both couldn't be at the table at the same time.