You guys are suggesting tracks and starting to argue about the state of hip hop. Only a few posts actually answered the actual question..
I learn about new music from everywhere. Various websites (music blogs, DJ forums, etc), radio, DJ pools, Youtube (you can spend hours on related videos), people on Twitter, people on Facebook, people in real life, charts, etc..
I learn about new music from everywhere. Various websites (music blogs, DJ forums, etc), radio, DJ pools, Youtube (you can spend hours on related videos), people on Twitter, people on Facebook, people in real life, charts, etc..
Styles of beyond... Get your hands on 2000 Fold and Megadef. You can hear a great musical progression from 2000 Fold to Megadef. 2000 Fold being very 90's basic hat, snare, Kick, Bass and Synth. Then Megadef having more layers and boldness to it. Both killer Cd's that do a great job shaping a unique sound.
Check out South Park Coalition artists, Screwed up Click artists, AOTP members joints, Danny Brown
AOTP?! Look, I like Vinny Paz, but he is NOT cutting edge. Have you counted how many times they say the name "Tupac" throughout The Unholy Terror? He's not done anything new in a long time, much less cutting edge.
You guys have made many valid points. Some have even swayed my way of thinking about the sad current state of hip hop. Has it evolved? Yes. For the better or worse? Both. Many aspects of hip hop like production and promotion has been for the better. But rapping, lyrics, flow, cohesion everything that has defined hip hop up until not too long ago, it's all gone down the Seinfeld way (a show about nothing that everyone loved because we didn't have to be initiated to enjoy) We now love the new class because they make us feel like we can kind of do what they do and understand them. They are nothing special. Plus if you factor in that the ones that actually pay for music today are younger and only demand the new new, you can see why it is what it is today. The streets who once dictated what an mc should be is so far removed from the equation now. You can call that evolution, but I always felt that any art has a basic structure familiar to the initiated. All the greats did things their own way thus evolution, but they did the structure thing WELL. Can we really improve on illmatic, 36 chamber, ready to die, all eyes on me etc, etc? Why not? They found a way to improve on It takes a nation, long live the kane, criminal minded, 3 feet high and rising, straight out of Compton etc, etc. it was a forward evolution. Not a lateral one like today. None of the new school can not at least challenge some of the old and still relevant lyrically. Because they can't and it is not important to their fans to take the old throne. No one demands it from them. In the '90s we demanded talent with our money. Today we only demand anything new that does not sound like the '90s. Sad. That's like saying that Donny Hathaway was a genius and that Ray Charles ain't shit and had nothing to do with his success. Or that Michael Jordan invented basketball and who is Dr.J. The fact is there are many good mc's out there. But they are not as known as the current A-listers because that what the fans demand. Even with the current backlash of artist like young money, they still manage to over sell artist like mortal technique. ASAP rocky is even bigger. In my day, Mortal tech would have edge these other guys out. But we demanded that, then...
I think you have a point in a way, but in my opinion lyricism is done evolving. Listen to Illmatic, then look me in the eye and tell me with a straight face "Yeah, I could see an artist putting out a more lyrically intricate record than this." Maybe people could put their own spin on it, and maybe people could make more conceptually deep records. But if you look at it from a pure wordplay/rhyme scheme etc perspective, in my opinion nobody has ever done anything more complicated lyrically than what was done on Illmatic, and nobody ever will.
Which basically means that rapping is a mature art form, there are no more advancements to be made in technique, and now people are getting more creative/fun/whatever. Rap after the 90s is like when Picasso came out saying "realistic technique is done, our paintings have gotten as realistic as they're going to get, let's stop focusing on technique so much and explore other aspects of painting where there's still room for growth." Or when people stopped listening to complicated intricate guitar solos in rock music after the 80s. Nobody's going to top Eddie Van Halen or Prince or whoever else, so why bother? Let's explore other areas of rock that are interesting.
Anyone has every right to say they don't like the sound of what's coming out now, and that's totally fair, but if you don't like it you at least have to admit that it's something new compared to what happened before. And rap has evolved and improved in a lot of ways, just not lyrically. Production is way more advanced now than it was in the 90s. The bar for actual songwriting--with a defined concept and a logical flow of ideas--has gone up a lot. Rappers write better hooks now. Basically, rap has progressed where it still has room to progress.
I totally respect your point of view, but i just can't agree with any of it. I think the entire universe is based upon novelty and evolution, and there's always a step further to be taken in any artform.
In relation to your example regarding picasso—I honestly don't believe that realism in art has truly been achieved—perhaps it was taken to its apex with brushes and paint hundreds of years ago, but today we still pursue visual realism and push the boundaries of what's possible—except now we're using computer modeling technology rather than oil paints and brushes. Tomorrow perhaps it will be 3D technology and virtual reality.
But my point is that, no, i don't believe that Illmatic is the final word in lyricism and street poetry. Was it great? of course, but even Nas was essentially taking something old (i.e., Rakim's style) and building upon it, and there is absolutely no reason why modern hip-hop artists can't similarly build upon those classics and forge something novel that's even a greater achievement.
One thing i've come to believe is that no matter how good you are at any particular thing, there's ALWAYS someone in the world who is, or will be better. There will come along more inventive and talented producers than Rza and Premier, etc., it's simply statistically inevitable. My guess is that they're probably already out there, but i think the modern-day musical culture has been dumbed down to the point where it isn't even viable for such artists to thrive or be recognized and therefore influence others to strive towards similarly progressive aesthetic ideals. The majority of hip-hop i hear now days, i seriously in my heart don't even consider to be ART. It's totally devoid of musical aptitude, bereft of intellect and MEANING.
Without those core elements, the glossy modern production values are totally meaningless. and i really don't agree that songwriting skills have evolved.. i think what's happened is that in order for hip-hop to become the pop music that it has, it's had to rely on the basic tried-and-tested pop structure formulas. but that doesn't in any way equate to better hip-hop music to me; it simply means that producers are doing what's necessary to sell records.
I don't know when cutting edge began to mean retro-style hip hop. Internet folks today always list some retro sounding hip hop as the "new" when it's not. Back in the early 90's what Dre, Mobb Deep, Wutang, Nas, Premiere, et all did was cutting edge. Going back to that type of sound 20 years later is not.
I can't dig ASAP Rocky. He ain't sayin' nuthin' at all. The instrumentals, I believe, are what make him seem to me something unique, but he's weak.
You can not dig him, but he's doing something a little different for sure. He's got a unique lyrical style.
If his style is similar to anyone, it's Lil B. But it's different enough to be his own thing, plus Lil B isn't exactly a mainstream, run-of-the-mill voice.
In relation to your example regarding picasso—I honestly don't believe that realism in art has truly been achieved—perhaps it was taken to its apex with brushes and paint hundreds of years ago, but today we still pursue visual realism and push the boundaries of what's possible—except now we're using computer modeling technology rather than oil paints and brushes. Tomorrow perhaps it will be 3D technology and virtual reality.
Ok true. I was comparing painting to rap though, I wasn't comparing creating images in general to writing lyrics in general. Also back in Picasso's day realism was really only like 95% done, now we have this and it's for real 100% done: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperrealism_(visual_arts)
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Originally Posted by atma
But my point is that, no, i don't believe that Illmatic is the final word in lyricism and street poetry. Was it great? of course, but even Nas was essentially taking something old (i.e., Rakim's style) and building upon it, and there is absolutely no reason why modern hip-hop artists can't similarly build upon those classics and forge something novel that's even a greater achievement.
Here's my point: people have been trying for years. Who has done better? There are a LOT of rappers out there who agree with your viewpoint. In my opinion, the reason they don't get heard isn't that modern listeners are stupid or more superficial. Modern listeners are 99% the same as listeners when Illmatic came out.
The main reason why these rappers don't get heard is that they're not doing anything new.
Not to say there aren't great modern lyricists. I love Jay Electronica.
And remember this shit dude?
I remember watching that and being like "holy shit, there are still some really ****ing good lyricists out there." But structurally--are they using any rhyme schemes that weren't used on Illmatic? Are they using any new kind of assonance or rhyme? Are they using more complicated rhythms? No, no, no.
If anything, the biggest change we've seen is that standards for what "rhymes" have fallen, because (a) strict standards always get relaxed over time in any music genre or art form or society, and (b) people wanted to go somewhere new with rap lyrics, so if they rhymed things that previously weren't considered to "rhyme," then technically they were doing something new.
And of course there's still an audience for great lyricists. When these artists have some pop success (obviously Eminem is an example, also remember when "Exhibit C" was all over Hot 97?), it's because they write a pop song that expresses a unique but relatable perspective in a way that's not too hard to understand. Because that's what pop songs are and that's what they've always been--that's kind of what Illmatic is, except that it's too hard for the average listener to understand to get radio play. The average pop radio listener doesn't really care as much about lyrical talent as he/she does about knowing that there's someone out there who feels the same way he/she does.
And we can argue about how good the intentions are of modern artists and producers, whether or not this music is better or worse, etc... anyone has every right to say "that's all well and good but I don't like any hip hop after 1998." I totally respect that view, although I don't personally agree with it.
Many pop and rock songs are using the same chords, themes, and instruments that have been used since the beginning. Does that mean that those genres haven't progressed? Just because you can't blantantly pick out a particular new rhyme pattern or complicated rhythms doesn't mean there's no progression. You're telling me there is no evolution between 1994 Nas, 1996 Biggie, 1998 Jay-Z, 2001 Em 2003 50, 2006 Kanye, 2012 Kendrick Lamar? Or is it simply that you personally don't LIKE the way in which it's going?
Stating something is cutting edge is very subjective anyway. What and who determines what is cutting edge? To say there has been no improvements on records like 36 Chambers or Illmatic is to discount Blueprint, Get Rich or Die Trying, Mood Muzik series, Return Of 4Eva, Section 80, Kanye's whole catalog, etc. Lyrically, yes there are a lot of simple ass rappers out now, but they were present in the early 2000's, 90's, and 80's. & there are plenty of incredible lyricists out right now. as for production wise, hip hop is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was on albums of the past.
The most common complaint when presenting "cutting-edge" hip-hop to the average fan is..."this shit is wack".
If you are actually looking for the 'cutting-edge' (not retro-style contemporaries who still complain about 'wack MC's' and the 'state of hip-hop' Ad nauseam)...you unfortunately need to seek it out yourself. Your perception of 'cutting-edge' is relative.
Many pop and rock songs are using the same chords, themes, and instruments that have been used since the beginning. Does that mean that those genres haven't progressed? Just because you can't blantantly pick out a particular new rhyme pattern or complicated rhythms doesn't mean there's no progression. You're telling me there is no evolution between 1994 Nas, 1996 Biggie, 1998 Jay-Z, 2001 Em 2003 50, 2006 Kanye, 2012 Kendrick Lamar? Or is it simply that you personally don't LIKE the way in which it's going?
Stating something is cutting edge is very subjective anyway. What and who determines what is cutting edge? To say there has been no improvements on records like 36 Chambers or Illmatic is to discount Blueprint, Get Rich or Die Trying, Mood Muzik series, Return Of 4Eva, Section 80, Kanye's whole catalog, etc. Lyrically, yes there are a lot of simple ass rappers out now, but they were present in the early 2000's, 90's, and 80's. & there are plenty of incredible lyricists out right now. as for production wise, hip hop is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was on albums of the past.
I think you have good points. We have different perspectives. It's all good dude, I respect your view. I think all the artists you listed are great, by the way.
I have read and agreed with most of everyones points to some degree. The only thing I can add is this...WE as musucians and artist are NOT the average listener. WE hold the artform we love at a higher standard . WE are more nostalgic about our love because the greats are what motivate US. we don't listen just so we can do a 2 step at the club or play music just to add ambiance at a spades game. WE listen to the lyrics and notice the fact that this sound came from a triton or that bass came from a moog. Unfortunately people we are the minority. Now as to whether or not hip hop has reached its' apex i say no, simply because we are the generation that have children that hear us playing "our" music. That exposure is what is going to produce the next big movement by someone. We just have to wait...impatiently but we wait nonetheless
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The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to be wrong in retrospect.
You can not dig him, but he's doing something a little different for sure. He's got a unique lyrical style.
If his style is similar to anyone, it's Lil B. But it's different enough to be his own thing, plus Lil B isn't exactly a mainstream, run-of-the-mill voice.
I'm an MC. I literally began CONSCIOUSLY writing lyrics and developing delivery techniques many years ago. I cannot, with a sound Mind, give any kind of credence to neither ASAP Rocky nor Lil B as credible, bonafide MCs or rappers.
They both possess a clear disdain for the Arts of writing and delivery.
They speak of nothing and speak of it with nothingness.
They HAVE found their niche, however, and both have broad appeal and a solid foundation of fans. The question is "Why".
For mySelf, the very definition of rapping is the delivery of ideas over instruMental backgrounds, with a rhythmic dedication to the beat and appealing content. Those who are adept at rapping, in my eyes are MCs.
"Back to the door, back from the store
Back to the wall with my back to the wall
Rolling up a blunt, passing it off
Ass on the floor cash back on the floor
Mack with the broads chat with the *****s
"There go's my nigga"- dap to my dogs
I prey on that pussy, chat with the Lord
Seems how it seems like I had it before
I think back, way back- Ran with my memories
We was getting high, sipping on Hennessy- Now it's like lean
Thinking back seat, way back riding on something clean
Know what I mean? Twenty-tens
We dont do the teens now it's twenty-eleven
Let me know something take her back to my session
Back to the pad, now i’m back on that ass
Back to the future back to the past"
There is nothing going on here.
Now, I am completely aware that there are legions of listeners out there who don't care to Think about what they're listening to...as if it is too much work to do so. These are the people who find entertainment in this drivel. We're all human beings, and I am aware of this fact. Some of us just don't have the time nor capacity to Think...I Understand this. But Hip Hop, at it's very roots, was founded upon the ideology of communicating to the world the Reality of Life, with the intention of Kre8ing an awareness of certain aspects of Life that others might not be aware of, in order to encourage an Understanding, which might lead to an advancement of human relations. Artistic license was introduced to this concept as Hip Hop developed.
I support-to an extent-hedonism; Life is to enjoy, after all. But to throw dirt into the face of those who are trying to advance the Art itSelf by showing total disregard for the discipline and Kre8ivity that those that who are trying to advance the Art as an Artform are exercising is an affront to Hip Hop, not only as a musical form, but as a Lifestyle, as well.
Noise like L'il B and ASAP Rocky are spitting are like squiggly-line graffito laid over nice bombs thrown up by genuine graffiti Artists...disruptive, ugly, and perceived by the general public as representative of the Lifestyle in general. We can do without it, but, if it must be present, we should make the world Understand that it does NOT represent the Life...just a portion of the genre.
Lots of stuff is dumbing down. Other popular musical genres and television are good examples. Television in particular.
I'm not quite sure why this person thinks television was somehow intelligent at one time. If its a subjective opinion than maybe you have changed more than the TV shows. If objective, what's the proof/criteria?
Wow some you guys make good points. Others sound a bit bitter. Others just take it too far. I think there is a time and a place for everything. Hip hop goes thru phases. Being from VA i grew up with NY style hip hop but the south was not far away either so i respect both. ASAP rocky and lil b dont personally do it for me but I often hear those older than me talk down to this generation. (mind you im in my late 20's so older than me means you were a rakim, erick b fan). Yes rap has changed but there are still lyricist, my self included. To put it in persepective, your so caught up on the bad your not respecting the good. Your so focused on the non-lyrical based rappers you dont try to promote and or support others. One thing that has always plagued NY rap was the lack of unity. I mean dudes in NY act like they too good to work together. Cutting edge rap exist. Its out now, some you guys sound upset because wacka flocka knows his lane and does it well. Im not. I respect it. Respect asap, and lil b. They doing them. But def look for the guys who bring lyricsim, creativity, and dare i say swagger to their music as well. We exist.
I'm an MC. I literally began CONSCIOUSLY writing lyrics and developing delivery techniques many years ago. I cannot, with a sound Mind, give any kind of credence to neither ASAP Rocky nor Lil B as credible, bonafide MCs or rappers.
They both possess a clear disdain for the Arts of writing and delivery.
They speak of nothing and speak of it with nothingness.
They HAVE found their niche, however, and both have broad appeal and a solid foundation of fans. The question is "Why".
For mySelf, the very definition of rapping is the delivery of ideas over instruMental backgrounds, with a rhythmic dedication to the beat and appealing content. Those who are adept at rapping, in my eyes are MCs.
"Back to the door, back from the store
Back to the wall with my back to the wall
Rolling up a blunt, passing it off
Ass on the floor cash back on the floor
Mack with the broads chat with the *****s
"There go's my nigga"- dap to my dogs
I prey on that pussy, chat with the Lord
Seems how it seems like I had it before
I think back, way back- Ran with my memories
We was getting high, sipping on Hennessy- Now it's like lean
Thinking back seat, way back riding on something clean
Know what I mean? Twenty-tens
We dont do the teens now it's twenty-eleven
Let me know something take her back to my session
Back to the pad, now i’m back on that ass
Back to the future back to the past"
There is nothing going on here.
Now, I am completely aware that there are legions of listeners out there who don't care to Think about what they're listening to...as if it is too much work to do so. These are the people who find entertainment in this drivel. We're all human beings, and I am aware of this fact. Some of us just don't have the time nor capacity to Think...I Understand this. But Hip Hop, at it's very roots, was founded upon the ideology of communicating to the world the Reality of Life, with the intention of Kre8ing an awareness of certain aspects of Life that others might not be aware of, in order to encourage an Understanding, which might lead to an advancement of human relations. Artistic license was introduced to this concept as Hip Hop developed.
I support-to an extent-hedonism; Life is to enjoy, after all. But to throw dirt into the face of those who are trying to advance the Art itSelf by showing total disregard for the discipline and Kre8ivity that those that who are trying to advance the Art as an Artform are exercising is an affront to Hip Hop, not only as a musical form, but as a Lifestyle, as well.
Noise like L'il B and ASAP Rocky are spitting are like squiggly-line graffito laid over nice bombs thrown up by genuine graffiti Artists...disruptive, ugly, and perceived by the general public as representative of the Lifestyle in general. We can do without it, but, if it must be present, we should make the world Understand that it does NOT represent the Life...just a portion of the genre.
But Hip Hop, at it's very roots, was founded upon the ideology of communicating to the world the Reality of Life, with the intention of Kre8ing an awareness of certain aspects of Life that others might not be aware of
I understand where you are coming from, but Hip Hop in it's inception was all about party rhymes and rocking the party. The world of hood reality and struggle was just one of the places hip hop went on it's journey. It was never the beginning or the end of the line.
I personally find the best way to "stay ahead" or "innovative" with hip hop is NOT TO LISTEN to any hip hop or rap. I truthfully quit listening to alot of hip hop/rap a few years back. Listen to alot of Electro, Death Metal, Indie Rock, New Soul, etc. Keeps ideas fresh and inspiration going. Hip Hop has the tendency to fatigue you if you produce/make beats
Hey! I dont want to be full of myself, but I see this forum is going on and on... I already posted once. I am said to be by some local artist at the top of the underground hip-hop scene, so just take 3-4 minutes of your time and check out this song, I doubt anybody in the game is quite doing it like I am doing(REVOLUTIONARY HIP-HOP BELOW!!!)...
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