Urgent! Need help on Hip Hop Vocals (Missy E. like)

j.m · 21st September 2003, 10:14 PM

Hi folks,

first of all I want to say hello to all forum members!
Today my very first post.
And already a problem need to be solved.

I've bought recently some Equipment to record Hip Hop Vocals.
Having experience with recording/producing/mixing beats, but never tried recording vocals.
But now it's time to finish some songs and therefore I need some professional advice.

So, let's start.
I've bought an Rode NT1000 Microphone and a dbx376 channel strip for recording the vocals.
Tried to record some vocals and discovered that it doesn't sound the same way as commercial productions.

First "problem" is that I have bought the dbx376 but still don't have it, because the shop didn't received the order yet. But they gave me a dbx286a for use until the order is there.
So because of the price difference I would assume that there will be a sonic difference. (to the better I hope)

The second "problem" that I have is that with my current setup, I just couldn't get near to what I've expected.

My comparisons with commercial CD's were not pleasant.

I've picked Missy's newest Album as a reference because there are nice passages where she is just talking.

1. The recording on the commercial CD's are a lot "smoother" than my recordings.

2. There is a "good" amount of some kind of "ambience" like a verb with almost no decay. (I hope I've explained that correctly, it's maybe like some kind of delay/or special verb programm)
Maybe somebody could gave me some tips on how to process such vocals with "normal people" delay-units or reverbs. In this area I'm using plugins but If it's not possible to do it with that, I was thinking of buying some lexicon PCM's.
Very interesting effects on Sean Paul's CD also. Like a long decay-verb or delay but no big room - very dense reflections.
With other productions also, always have the feeling that there is a lot of ambience without hearing a lot of reverb/decay.

(Biiig problem that I also have is that I don't own a vocal booth, but I'm working on a solution.)

3. Problem with unwanted noises! I hope I use the right term, my main concern are noises like "gobble/smack" when rapping.
When listening to commercial CD's the Vocals often aren't very loud sung. (I don't mean that "inyourface" sound or compression) The vocals are often very unconstrained, not yelled out loud.
But when I'm recording normal, the vocal dissapears in the mix.
When I'm preamping and comping loud enough, then it starts to tear and somehow this gobble/smack sounds are over-present.
Then I'm using the gate-function on the dbx286a to get in control over these sounds but now the vocals get very "mumbled" 'cause this f****** gate works too good. And no way to find a win-win adjustment.
How can I overcome that? Because now if I rap, I have to be very over-precise with pronunciation & accentuation 'cause otherwise the words are getting cut. That again leads me away from the unconstrained singing.
And I'm sure there must be a way 'cause a lot of those rappers don't rap like a opera singer in live-situation, there must be some heavy editing.

I'm really confused at the moment and I hope that some of you pro's can help me out.

Was the equipment choice a good one (Rode NT1000/dbx376)? Or should I use another combination for hip hop (but in the same price-category)? Bought it by recommendation of the salesperson, who does hip hop by himself and he was using that combo in his studio.
He said in this price-range it's a good choice.
Is it enough to get the job done? Or am I kilometers away from a good setup? Please be honest, politeness won't help.
What is needed to get good vocal recording? I'm only doing demo's from myself to send out, but I'm a real perfectionist (always comparing to commercial CD's - by beats are there but now I need the "perfect" vocals).

Please need a lot of advice and help, every tip is very welcome.
Don't have absolutely no clou, how to process vocals for rap relating to verb & or delay processing or whatever it takes to stand out real smoothely but present.

BIG thanx in advance j.m

e-cue · 21st September 2003, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by j.m
Was the equipment choice a good one (Rode NT1000/dbx376)? Or should I use another combination for hip hop (but in the same price-category)? Bought it by recommendation of the salesperson, who does hip hop by himself and he was using that combo in his studio.
He said in this price-range it's a good choice.
Is it enough to get the job done? Or am I kilometers away from a good setup? Please be honest, politeness won't help.
What is needed to get good vocal recording? I'm only doing demo's from myself to send out, but I'm a real perfectionist (always comparing to commercial CD's - by beats are there but now I need the "perfect" vocals).

Well, let's start with what Missy uses. She usually records with a Sony 800G mic into a Focusrite Isa 430 Producer Pack (which I ****in' loathe) into an Apogee PSX-100 SE into Pro tools TDM.

When you mention the "ambience" like a verb with almost no decay, the only effect Missy usually uses is the Waves Ping Pong delay on her ad libs (she can't get enough of it). If you are talking about her background vocals that are in unison, that's just compression, so perhaps that's the 'ambeince' you are talkin about.

The NT1000/dbx376 combo is one of the shittier signal chains imaginable for vocals. Those jackasses at Guitar Center have tried pushing the DBX 'channel strip' units on me several times, and they suck massive horse schlong. My gear suggestions would be : Neve 1081 -> Distressor (tight sound), MP-1 (or MP-2) -> Distressor (tubey, but very clean), or an Avalon 737 (can be a bit dull sometimes, but it's the most used pre/combo for rap vocals). Mic suggestions would be: Sony 800G, U87, or a U47 FET. On of cheaper side, an Shure SM7 is great for percussive rappers. It always reminds me of Micheal Jackson's percussive vocal sound on Thriller.

As far as processing after you've recorded, try the Ren Comp starting with the "Crunch" compression setting. Also, the "Ren Vox" plug in is wicked awesome for giving your vocals a roast beef quality. Tastaaay.

thethrillfactor · 21st September 2003, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by j.m
).

Please need a lot of advice and help, every tip is very welcome.
Don't have absolutely no clou, how to process vocals for rap relating to verb & or delay processing or whatever it takes to stand out real smoothely but present.

BIG thanx in advance j.m

First of all i'm with E-cue, your vocal channel is a little lacking. Maybe rent something(even a U87 which I know JDouglas uses alot through the right mic pre can work).

Also I think comparing your tracks to stuff is released is a little crazy. In theory its what you are shooting for, but I think reality you need to know where you are at. In your whole equation the one thing I see lacking are the engineers. I know its great to think that you can do it yourself, but there is a reason that these guys not only get hired to track the vocal, but to mix it as well.

Maybe hiring someone to record/mix the tracks will be of bigger help(and you can learn somethings from them also).

Jusy a suggestion.

j.m · 22nd September 2003, 12:38 AM

Well, thanks e-cue for the reply.

Now I get the picture.

But despite of the fact that I would like to have one those Sony 800G's, it's way out of my price range.
The same goes for the preamplification chain.
If I could I would purchase it instantly.
But it's helpful to see what is used for processing.

Maybe you could give me a tip on how to improve my recording chain within my possibilities.

For the Rode NT1000 an equivalent would be 300-350$
and the dbx376 it would be about 500-650$ approximately.

Where would I get the better value if I would make a change in the setup?
The mic or the channel-strip?
The recommendations you've made are very cool but way out of my financial possibilities. Except from the Shure which I've only seen as SM7-b (a newer version), does that matter?
It would cost me about 600$ and could be manageable.

Would it be a better combination with the dbx376 for a smooth sound than the Rode or should I rather replace the dbx? In this case which alternative in the same price-range or max. 200$ over would be good?

I really don't want start a thread like which one is the "best" for under ***$, but I just can't afford to throw a "few" thousands of dollars out of the window just to buy "another" preamp.

This combo will be my one and only. And I know, that just because of that, I should buy the best possible. But this is the best possible I can afford, and I just can't wait "a few" years to save the money for a super signal-chain.

I'm aware that my request is shure not as "High End" as the pro's on the forum are used to, but therefore I hope that the one or the other know some good equipment in a more favourable price-range which gives a good value for the money.

So I hope, that somebody has a good tip on a combo in my price-range that fulfils the need for my demand for a smooth, present sound for hiphop vocals.

If there is no cure for my kind of situation (that means: the price-range the Rode & dbx are in, is so shitty, there is no "other" alternative).
Feel free to post too. Because then I've to go for this combo anyway, because somehow I've to get "this" audio in the PC.
And yelling into my boxes is not the way I want to go.

Maybe somebody can give me a tip on that "gobble/smack" thing.
I hope it is the correct term.
Do you have just better gates or is it the better preamp/mic. Or some other trick.

I'm really in need of every experienced info I can get.

thanx j.m

thethrillfactor · 22nd September 2003, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by j.m
go.

Maybe somebody can give me a tip on that "gobble/smack" thing.
I hope it is the correct term.
Do you have just better gates or is it the better preamp/mic. Or some other trick.

I'm really in need of every experienced info I can get.

thanx j.m

To get rid of the gobble/smack thing either:

1) Edit it out

2) Use an expander with a nice med-slow attack and med-slow release

3) When you are rapping(or whoever is) give him or her some water or Apple juice. It will take care of the dry mouth.

Side note:Contrary to opinion, booze and marijuana will contribute even more to it(the sugar in the booze will break down in your mouth and make you even thirstier).

toledo3 · 22nd September 2003, 12:52 AM

If I had to make a budget setup for someone, I would put together something like a Really Nice Preamp, Really Nice Compressor, and an MXL 990. I know that sounds insane, but you could get it to sound like a mil. Do not let the mxl's cheap price fool you.

Alternately, I would try to pickup the SM7, a neve type pre, and an rnc. I don't know if that is out of your range. Also, the sytek's with j-fet or burr brown mod, are pretty fat sounding for vocals. For rap, I would DEFINITELY recommend compressing during tracking, and then compressing some more during the mix.

j.m · 22nd September 2003, 01:08 AM

Sorry thrillfactor didn't saw your reply,

some kind of intersection.

You are absolutely right. But my aim is to do it the best that I'm can. The best way to do so, is to compare and listen (always and very carefully).

Analysing, analysing, analysing and trying, trying, trying.

This maxim made me real good in achieving maximum results with small equipment and it is possible if you know what you're doing and if you listen. Like the Pro's always say.

Sound and Beat-wise I'm really achieving good quality within my limitations.
I was recently at a professional Studio, they have over 10 years experience and some national Chart Productions.
Very good equipment, all "High End" and doing good business.
Even building a better, bigger Studio-Complex.
And the Main-Engineer at the Studio listened to my demo and liked a lot. He said that they rarely get demo's in such a good quality (they have a label in cooperation).

Even the boss called me back and was interested.
But I gave them just snippets, so they didn,t know what to do with them.
They wanted a whole concept/song.
I'm actually more into producing not rapping.
But don't have nobody who could take that part and now I have to do it on my own.

And because of that, I'm always going for the best I can as long as I can afford it.
If I can make the beat sound like a bomb (without pro mastering and speaking of a demo that is really near release-quality) than somehow it must be possible to make vocals sound good, too.

I won't give up, as always.
Somehow I will make it work, but I thought maybe the tips and hints of some experienced pro's from the get-go would just save me a lot of headaches.

Anyway thanx for all the replies and it would be very cool if there would be some of the "tips&hints" contributions.

j.m

thethrillfactor · 22nd September 2003, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by j.m
I won't give up, as always.
Somehow I will make it work, but I thought maybe the tips and hints of some experienced pro's from the get-go would just save me a lot of headaches.

Anyway thanx for all the replies and it would be very cool if there would be some of the "tips&hints" contributions.

j.m

This is the biggest tip I can give you.

Why waste your money on something that's not as great that will leave you frustrated in the end anyway?

If you like producing and making tracks, than focus on that more and let the engineering up to the guys that do it for a living.

How much are you spending on the channel? something like $750? Nowadays that will get you either one whole day at a top studio or a whole bunch of days at a mid level joint.

The one time I got to meet Quincy Jones I asked him the question: Over the years, from his experience, what does it take to be a great producer(or a producer period)?

You know what he said?

2 things:

1)Be ready at any time when you are called upon to do whatever it takes to make a project succesful(even if your own confidence tells you other wise)...Whatever it takes!!!

2)Try to lay down the best canvas you can for the artist to be able to do their best!!!

That's it, plain and simple.

Words of wisdom that I live by to this day.

j.m · 22nd September 2003, 01:59 AM

That's true, can't nothing say against that.

My main intention, why I want to buy this equipment, is the same as why many other home-studios raised out of nowhere.

Time to experiment. If I can do it at home, I'm not limited in time and have no pressure to achieve a result.
Sometimes it's good to work under pressure, but sometimes it's not.
My creativity is not working by appointments.
If I go to a studio, I have to know, what I want, how I want It, etc.
And if I spend that amount of money, I have to go out with "something useful".

But, as I said, I'm at the beginning and I want to have the opportunity to find out if I'm capable with rapping. Which technique/style would suit me best, etc.

Don't want to make a fool of myself. Stakes are high and I've seen so much other "rappers", who are very convinced of themself, but aren't convincing other people ('cause lack of talent).
In that new "american idol" era somehow everbody thinks, he has it.

But even though it's just for demo-purpose, I always want the best results possible. The more difficult, the bigger the challenge.
I'm always hands-on by myself, so that I can always comprehend to what is happening.
I think, if can handle some "bad" equipment than what can I do with that SSL/Neve thingies, some Sony Mic and those badass preamps/channel-strips equipped with some talented engineer. A no-brainer, a blind walktrough.

So, that's why I'm asking. Maybe someone of you knows a good solution.

I'm sure some folks on this forum were not "born" into a high-end studio.
And if they didn't studied their profession at a unversity I'm sure that they've started with something cheaper and did get some results, too. And worked their way up by causing some attention.
Or did they all got into the game by accident?

So, that's mainly the reason why I'm after a solution for my home-studio.

Cheers! j.m

thethrillfactor · 22nd September 2003, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by j.m
That's true, can't nothing say against that.

My main intention, why I want to buy this equipment, is the same as why many other home-studios raised out of nowhere.

Time to experiment. If I can do it at home, I'm not limited in time and have no pressure to achieve a result.
Sometimes it's good to work under pressure, but sometimes it's not.
My creativity is not working by appointments.
If I go to a studio, I have to know, what I want, how I want It, etc.
And if I spend that amount of money, I have to go out with "something useful".

But, as I said, I'm at the beginning and I want to have the opportunity to find out if I'm capable with rapping. Which technique/style would suit me best, etc.

Don't want to make a fool of myself. Stakes are high and I've seen so much other "rappers", who are very convinced of themself, but aren't convincing other people ('cause lack of talent).
In that new "american idol" era somehow everbody thinks, he has it.

But even though it's just for demo-purpose, I always want the best results possible. The more difficult, the bigger the challenge.
I'm always hands-on by myself, so that I can always comprehend to what is happening.
I think, if can handle some "bad" equipment than what can I do with that SSL/Neve thingies, some Sony Mic and those badass preamps/channel-strips equipped with some talented engineer. A no-brainer, a blind walktrough.

So, that's why I'm asking. Maybe someone of you knows a good solution.

I'm sure some folks on this forum were not "born" into a high-end studio.
And if they didn't studied their profession at a unversity I'm sure that they've started with something cheaper and did get some results, too. And worked their way up by causing some attention.
Or did they all got into the game by accident?

So, that's mainly the reason why I'm after a solution for my home-studio.

Cheers! j.m

Hey J.M.,

There is a forumn here called Between a Rock and a Hard place that could probably help you more.

All I can say is that if you decide to go with an SM7, than you will need a good mic pre with an EQ. And the SM7 doesn't work for a lot of people, especially rappers that I've tried it with. You will have to EQ it, but since you don't have much experience than maybe that's not a great idea.

Good Luck.

e-cue · 22nd September 2003, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by j.m
So, that's why I'm asking. Maybe someone of you knows a good solution.

Have you considered renting? There's a couple stores out here that won't give you problems when returning gear that didn't fit the bill. (check beforehand and write down the name of the rep you speak with)

Compression is key for rap vocals. It gives them presence, breath control, and an in your face quality. I just can't see you getting stellar results with the gear you listed.

The bottom line is this: if you want your vocals to sound like Missy Elliot, you'll need access to the same type of gear. Just because you have access to the gear, that doesn't mean you are guaranteed a great sound. Engineering skill goes a long way, but you can't properly sculpt sound without the adequate tools. If you could, Missy would be using a DBX unit and a Rode mic.

thethrillfactor · 22nd September 2003, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by e-cue
Have you considered renting? There's a couple stores out here that won't give you problems when returning gear that didn't fit the bill. (check beforehand and write down the name of the rep you speak with)

Compression is key for rap vocals. It gives them presence, breath control, and an in your face quality. I just can't see you getting stellar results with the gear you listed.

The bottom line is this: if you want your vocals to sound like Missy Elliot, you'll need access to the same type of gear. Just because you have access to the gear, that doesn't mean you are guaranteed a great sound. Engineering skill goes a long way, but you can't properly sculpt sound without the adequate tools. If you could, Missy would be using a DBX unit and a Rode mic.

Hey E-,

I think the saying goes "throwing pearls to swine".

PultecTweaker · 22nd September 2003, 05:20 AM

e-cue

missy, doesnt just lay vocals down on one track?
multiple tracks no? to give it an edge?

are they thickening her vocals with -10cent pitching..etc?

get your freak on

PultecTweaker · 22nd September 2003, 05:26 AM

jm,

did you mention what your recording this to? protools?

also, once you get your mic, and compressor/eq
I would suggest you spend $150 bucks to give
to a engineer for an hour to have him show you
how to get the best sound from what you bought.

you could go to a few studios and see if anyone
has the time and would be nice enuff to help ya out.

Germany, has nice mics too. Neumann

e-cue · 22nd September 2003, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PultecTweaker
e-cue

missy, doesnt just lay vocals down on one track?
multiple tracks no? to give it an edge?

are they thickening her vocals with -10cent pitching..etc?

get your freak on

She usually does one lead all the way down. She's not the type of artist you end up doing a million punches with. Then she'll have one or two ad lib tracks with the heavy ping pong delay. Then she'll do backgrounds which are usually 8 tracks. I'm only talking about when she raps. I've never pitched her vocals or seen any sessions where she was harmonized down. Most of her sound comes from her.

A lot of people don't know what an amazing singer she is too.

kenn.michael · 22nd September 2003, 08:37 AM

I'm just getting a kick from the fact that Missy runs that Sony into the ISA430!!!! I have a 430, and I like it for some things.... but it's just TOOOO transparent for vocals that are being recorded digitally.

Just to echo all the previous advice... The gear makes a HUGE difference. Finding the right pre/comp combo makes ALL the difference when tracking. I'm working with an artist right now through a 1073/Distressor combo with a M149. Man, it hits disk so perfectly that when it comes to mix, I don't really have to do much to get it sitting in the mix.

toolstudio · 22nd September 2003, 01:54 PM

Hi,

I'm just having a break in mixing an new upcoming hiphop album and find this thread. So I jump in with my 2c.

As the others stated, the Rode and the DBX are nothing to get an pro result. But you are right, it's enough to find out about your skills.

The Sony C800G is my first choice in recording rap and r&b vocals. The C800G has that nice air which works really great, also the highs are a littlebit, what I call "japanese plastic" when compared to the highs of an C12 for example. Not to be meant negative...
As an alround rap mic the U87 is pretty good, but no Rode.

So in 95% the C800G is a nobrainer. On preamps I go to something big and beefy sounding, mostly a Neve 1064 or Neve 1073, sometimes an old API312 for main raps, doubles and adds.
I just have an Neve 1081 rack in fromt of me which I really like, it has the Neve Sound but isn't as warm (dull??) as the 1064 and 1073. I'm just fighting with me to keep it or not.

On R&B things, I'm just starting some R&B tracks next thursday, I mostly use a hifi path for the background tracks, like an Brauner VM1 to an old Focusrite ISA110 (actually an 85110 from a console) or to an Telefunken V76, because if you stack a lotlot of backing vocals you can get a really cool shining if you record it throught an very open sounding path.

In mix a usually eq the main raps with the Neve 1064 or 1073.
I often use LA2As, CL1B, Neve 32264a as main vocals comps if the vocal is a bid thin, or I use 1176 or the VacRac if the vocal could be a bit brighter.
The backgrounds I sum together and through an Neve 33609 or the VacRac Limiters and through a pair of API550a, where I really love the silky 15k.

yo man, time to go back to work

wolfgang

toolhouse studios, germany

j.m · 23rd September 2003, 03:44 AM

Hmmm, so far so good.

thanx for the replies and suggestions.

The mic-thing was a really no-brainer for me.
If I would own a Sony C800G or U87, I wouldn't be "that" stupid to ask if it's the right thing for recording vocals of any kind.
Just two killer microphones. But they are about 5 to over 10 times above my budget.

That the right equipment really does make a difference is really not discussible. I'm really aware of the differences.

The suggestions and tips for the signal-chain were really, really nice, informative and interesting.
Even though, I can't afford them to buy, it's just cool to see which preferences people have. And If I should start to make money out of music, I know now what to aim for.

Still got some requirement for a few suggestions. If possible?
Would be really helpful!!!

From what I've learned now, within my budget it's impossible to get pro results.
But maybe could someone just give me a personal oppinion on this hardware.

first the dbx 376, would it be better to go for the Channel One from SPL? Would it make difference for the better? Or is it same sh**?
Maybe I'm dissing myself know, but can't help it anyway.
I own a SPL StereoQ and really like that unit and because of the good reputation of the company, thought maybe it's a better alternative to the dbx 376?
Am I wrong? (especially for the vocals?)

and the Rode NT1000, is there a better mic for smooth vocals in the approximately same price-range?

Some suggestions on this two questions would be - really - helpful.

(please no more U87,Sony replies - i've learned my lesson)

BIG thanx j.m

Exmun · 23rd September 2003, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by j.m
...
(please no more U87,Sony replies - i've learned my lesson)

Dude,
You're in the "High End" forum of GEARSLUTZ, a forum discussing high end gear used in commercial recordings. If you really want an answer on the Rode mics and dbx stuff, perhaps www.homerecording.com/bbs would be a better bet for you. They do discuss home recording gear there and would likely have an answer for you.

jazzius II · 23rd September 2003, 11:25 PM

I think you can get very reasonable results from cheap(ish) mic's/pre's, as long as you make good use of proximity effect , eq the sound well later and don't overload the mic/pre (unless that's the sound you're going for)----and of course......crap in/turd out.

e-cue · 24th September 2003, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by j.m
first the dbx 376, would it be better to go for the Channel One from SPL? Would it make difference for the better? Or is it same sh**?

Yes, Yes, and No.

Quote:

Originally posted by j.m
Maybe I'm dissing myself know, but can't help it anyway.
I own a SPL StereoQ and really like that unit and because of the good reputation of the company, thought maybe it's a better alternative to the dbx 376?
Am I wrong? (especially for the vocals?)

It is definately better. I didn't know you were on such a low budget (my esp is getting cloudy these days).

Quote:

Originally posted by j.m
and the Rode NT1000, is there a better mic for smooth vocals in the approximately same price-range?

Some suggestions on this two questions would be - really - helpful.

(please no more U87,Sony replies - i've learned my lesson)

BIG thanx j.m

Uhm. *ponders* I thought I did. What I can suggest is this:
(buy 1st)Shure SM7b (or SM7, actually I'd ever use an SM58 before the Rode)
(buy 3rd)Sytek Mic pre (or Neotek Mic Max)
(buy 2nd)DBX160XT Comp/Lim (or DBX160X)
your SPL Q unit

Signal flow in that order.

On top of all this, I still don't know what you are recording to.

Not to sound like a broken record, but if I was in your shoes and wanted a good recording, I'd rent the right gear to start with. If I didn't rent, and didn't have access to it, I just wouldn't expect results that engineers get working in rooms that cost $2,000(us) a day plus rentals.

PultecTweaker · 24th September 2003, 01:33 AM

I think he also needs to find his voice? no?
get used to hearing himself listening to himself rapping
since he stated he was more of a beat programmer/producer

it took me a year to finally get used to listening
back to my vocals without cringing

j.m · 24th September 2003, 03:08 PM

Muchas, muchas gracias.

VERY BIG thanx to you e-cue!!!

I think I will somehow manage to get the Shure SM7b and the SPL Channel One.
Because the other things are (despite of the price) a little bit hard get me hands on here in germany.
Don't know who sells them!

Anyway, very helpful replies.
And I know that my requests were not forwarded to "High End".

But I needed some tips from "Pro's" who make and have experience in commercial/chart music and not from some Homerecordists who don't have more anticipation than me.
No diss against them, 'cause I'm one of them. But the "most" of them never did a successful pro record, so how could they advise me? The blind leading the blind? How could a "rocker" advise a "hip-hoper" what suits his style best? If they did knew how it works, they would be doing big business. The one thing is to know it theoretical, the other to pull it off the right way in practice.

To answer the question about my recording medium.
I use Cubase SX and will soon move over to SX2.0, which has the same excact audio-engine as Nuendo2.0 (the same sound-quality).
But don't know how to judge that. I just like "the Sound" that I'm getting from SX and I'm comparing a lot to commercial records.

Would like to give you a chance to hear what I'm doing. But don't have no webspace or something like that and MP3 and such sites, sorry not for me.
Hey e-cue, maybe I could pm/send you a short snippet of what I'm doing (if it's technically possible) if your interested, so that you could judge for yourself if I'm a "pr**k" and don't know what I'm speaking about (audio), or not. If you don't want to be bothered, than it's fine, too.

It is stylisticly influenced by a producer which you should maybe know if your working with Missy Elliott.
I really hope that what I do is no "style-biting", but If you had to compare me with all those producers, it's "mostley" very bouncy.
Because that's just what I like the most, to make people move and dance. And I'm a very big fan of such Sounds/Music, but even though, I'm trying to do it as creative as I can. Not "copying/duplicating"! Giving it an own touch and stay as versatile as possible.

So, thank you all for the replies I've got so far.
Really interesting insights in the working-practice of the pro engineers.

cheers j.m

j.m · 24th September 2003, 03:12 PM

Oh I forgot, sound and beats are recorded into SX all from my Synth-Workstation and some VSTi's, no external "samples" or things like that.

tunesmith · 24th September 2003, 08:28 PM

JM -

You've got the hunger man, and that's what's important. As a fellow in a similar position as you (big dreams, good ears, and a shit budget) I really feel your angst as you want to make world class music.

However, let me give you a liberating piece of truth. You cannot do it.

I would love to hear e-cue's input on this, but I bet when Timbaland and Missy

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21st September 2003, 10:14 PM	#1
j.m Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Germany, Bavaria Posts: 82	Urgent! Need help on Hip Hop Vocals (Missy E. like) Hi folks, first of all I want to say hello to all forum members! Today my very first post. And already a problem need to be solved. I've bought recently some Equipment to record Hip Hop Vocals. Having experience with recording/producing/mixing beats, but never tried recording vocals. But now it's time to finish some songs and therefore I need some professional advice. So, let's start. I've bought an Rode NT1000 Microphone and a dbx376 channel strip for recording the vocals. Tried to record some vocals and discovered that it doesn't sound the same way as commercial productions. First "problem" is that I have bought the dbx376 but still don't have it, because the shop didn't received the order yet. But they gave me a dbx286a for use until the order is there. So because of the price difference I would assume that there will be a sonic difference. (to the better I hope) The second "problem" that I have is that with my current setup, I just couldn't get near to what I've expected. My comparisons with commercial CD's were not pleasant. I've picked Missy's newest Album as a reference because there are nice passages where she is just talking. 1. The recording on the commercial CD's are a lot "smoother" than my recordings. 2. There is a "good" amount of some kind of "ambience" like a verb with almost no decay. (I hope I've explained that correctly, it's maybe like some kind of delay/or special verb programm) Maybe somebody could gave me some tips on how to process such vocals with "normal people" delay-units or reverbs. In this area I'm using plugins but If it's not possible to do it with that, I was thinking of buying some lexicon PCM's. Very interesting effects on Sean Paul's CD also. Like a long decay-verb or delay but no big room - very dense reflections. With other productions also, always have the feeling that there is a lot of ambience without hearing a lot of reverb/decay. (Biiig problem that I also have is that I don't own a vocal booth, but I'm working on a solution.) 3. Problem with unwanted noises! I hope I use the right term, my main concern are noises like "gobble/smack" when rapping. When listening to commercial CD's the Vocals often aren't very loud sung. (I don't mean that "inyourface" sound or compression) The vocals are often very unconstrained, not yelled out loud. But when I'm recording normal, the vocal dissapears in the mix. When I'm preamping and comping loud enough, then it starts to tear and somehow this gobble/smack sounds are over-present. Then I'm using the gate-function on the dbx286a to get in control over these sounds but now the vocals get very "mumbled" 'cause this f****** gate works too good. And no way to find a win-win adjustment. How can I overcome that? Because now if I rap, I have to be very over-precise with pronunciation & accentuation 'cause otherwise the words are getting cut. That again leads me away from the unconstrained singing. And I'm sure there must be a way 'cause a lot of those rappers don't rap like a opera singer in live-situation, there must be some heavy editing. I'm really confused at the moment and I hope that some of you pro's can help me out. Was the equipment choice a good one (Rode NT1000/dbx376)? Or should I use another combination for hip hop (but in the same price-category)? Bought it by recommendation of the salesperson, who does hip hop by himself and he was using that combo in his studio. He said in this price-range it's a good choice. Is it enough to get the job done? Or am I kilometers away from a good setup? Please be honest, politeness won't help. What is needed to get good vocal recording? I'm only doing demo's from myself to send out, but I'm a real perfectionist (always comparing to commercial CD's - by beats are there but now I need the "perfect" vocals). Please need a lot of advice and help, every tip is very welcome. Don't have absolutely no clou, how to process vocals for rap relating to verb & or delay processing or whatever it takes to stand out real smoothely but present. BIG thanx in advance j.m

22nd September 2003, 12:38 AM	#4
j.m Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Germany, Bavaria Posts: 82	Well, thanks e-cue for the reply. Now I get the picture. But despite of the fact that I would like to have one those Sony 800G's, it's way out of my price range. The same goes for the preamplification chain. If I could I would purchase it instantly. But it's helpful to see what is used for processing. Maybe you could give me a tip on how to improve my recording chain within my possibilities. For the Rode NT1000 an equivalent would be 300-350$ and the dbx376 it would be about 500-650$ approximately. Where would I get the better value if I would make a change in the setup? The mic or the channel-strip? The recommendations you've made are very cool but way out of my financial possibilities. Except from the Shure which I've only seen as SM7-b (a newer version), does that matter? It would cost me about 600$ and could be manageable. Would it be a better combination with the dbx376 for a smooth sound than the Rode or should I rather replace the dbx? In this case which alternative in the same price-range or max. 200$ over would be good? I really don't want start a thread like which one is the "best" for under ***$, but I just can't afford to throw a "few" thousands of dollars out of the window just to buy "another" preamp. This combo will be my one and only. And I know, that just because of that, I should buy the best possible. But this is the best possible I can afford, and I just can't wait "a few" years to save the money for a super signal-chain. I'm aware that my request is shure not as "High End" as the pro's on the forum are used to, but therefore I hope that the one or the other know some good equipment in a more favourable price-range which gives a good value for the money. So I hope, that somebody has a good tip on a combo in my price-range that fulfils the need for my demand for a smooth, present sound for hiphop vocals. If there is no cure for my kind of situation (that means: the price-range the Rode & dbx are in, is so shitty, there is no "other" alternative). Feel free to post too. Because then I've to go for this combo anyway, because somehow I've to get "this" audio in the PC. And yelling into my boxes is not the way I want to go. Maybe somebody can give me a tip on that "gobble/smack" thing. I hope it is the correct term. Do you have just better gates or is it the better preamp/mic. Or some other trick. I'm really in need of every experienced info I can get. thanx j.m

22nd September 2003, 12:52 AM	#6
toledo3 Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Funky Town FL Posts: 1,189	If I had to make a budget setup for someone, I would put together something like a Really Nice Preamp, Really Nice Compressor, and an MXL 990. I know that sounds insane, but you could get it to sound like a mil. Do not let the mxl's cheap price fool you. Alternately, I would try to pickup the SM7, a neve type pre, and an rnc. I don't know if that is out of your range. Also, the sytek's with j-fet or burr brown mod, are pretty fat sounding for vocals. For rap, I would DEFINITELY recommend compressing during tracking, and then compressing some more during the mix.

22nd September 2003, 01:08 AM	#7
j.m Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Germany, Bavaria Posts: 82	Sorry thrillfactor didn't saw your reply, some kind of intersection. You are absolutely right. But my aim is to do it the best that I'm can. The best way to do so, is to compare and listen (always and very carefully). Analysing, analysing, analysing and trying, trying, trying. This maxim made me real good in achieving maximum results with small equipment and it is possible if you know what you're doing and if you listen. Like the Pro's always say. Sound and Beat-wise I'm really achieving good quality within my limitations. I was recently at a professional Studio, they have over 10 years experience and some national Chart Productions. Very good equipment, all "High End" and doing good business. Even building a better, bigger Studio-Complex. And the Main-Engineer at the Studio listened to my demo and liked a lot. He said that they rarely get demo's in such a good quality (they have a label in cooperation). Even the boss called me back and was interested. But I gave them just snippets, so they didn,t know what to do with them. They wanted a whole concept/song. I'm actually more into producing not rapping. But don't have nobody who could take that part and now I have to do it on my own. And because of that, I'm always going for the best I can as long as I can afford it. If I can make the beat sound like a bomb (without pro mastering and speaking of a demo that is really near release-quality) than somehow it must be possible to make vocals sound good, too. I won't give up, as always. Somehow I will make it work, but I thought maybe the tips and hints of some experienced pro's from the get-go would just save me a lot of headaches. Anyway thanx for all the replies and it would be very cool if there would be some of the "tips&hints" contributions. j.m

22nd September 2003, 01:59 AM	#9
j.m Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Germany, Bavaria Posts: 82	That's true, can't nothing say against that. My main intention, why I want to buy this equipment, is the same as why many other home-studios raised out of nowhere. Time to experiment. If I can do it at home, I'm not limited in time and have no pressure to achieve a result. Sometimes it's good to work under pressure, but sometimes it's not. My creativity is not working by appointments. If I go to a studio, I have to know, what I want, how I want It, etc. And if I spend that amount of money, I have to go out with "something useful". But, as I said, I'm at the beginning and I want to have the opportunity to find out if I'm capable with rapping. Which technique/style would suit me best, etc. Don't want to make a fool of myself. Stakes are high and I've seen so much other "rappers", who are very convinced of themself, but aren't convincing other people ('cause lack of talent). In that new "american idol" era somehow everbody thinks, he has it. But even though it's just for demo-purpose, I always want the best results possible. The more difficult, the bigger the challenge. I'm always hands-on by myself, so that I can always comprehend to what is happening. I think, if can handle some "bad" equipment than what can I do with that SSL/Neve thingies, some Sony Mic and those badass preamps/channel-strips equipped with some talented engineer. A no-brainer, a blind walktrough. So, that's why I'm asking. Maybe someone of you knows a good solution. I'm sure some folks on this forum were not "born" into a high-end studio. And if they didn't studied their profession at a unversity I'm sure that they've started with something cheaper and did get some results, too. And worked their way up by causing some attention. Or did they all got into the game by accident? So, that's mainly the reason why I'm after a solution for my home-studio. Cheers! j.m

22nd September 2003, 05:20 AM	#13
PultecTweaker Gear Head Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: usa Posts: 70	e-cue missy, doesnt just lay vocals down on one track? multiple tracks no? to give it an edge? are they thickening her vocals with -10cent pitching..etc? get your freak on

22nd September 2003, 05:26 AM	#14
PultecTweaker Gear Head Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: usa Posts: 70	jm, did you mention what your recording this to? protools? also, once you get your mic, and compressor/eq I would suggest you spend $150 bucks to give to a engineer for an hour to have him show you how to get the best sound from what you bought. you could go to a few studios and see if anyone has the time and would be nice enuff to help ya out. Germany, has nice mics too. Neumann

22nd September 2003, 08:37 AM	#16
kenn.michael Gear maniac Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 265	I'm just getting a kick from the fact that Missy runs that Sony into the ISA430!!!! I have a 430, and I like it for some things.... but it's just TOOOO transparent for vocals that are being recorded digitally. Just to echo all the previous advice... The gear makes a HUGE difference. Finding the right pre/comp combo makes ALL the difference when tracking. I'm working with an artist right now through a 1073/Distressor combo with a M149. Man, it hits disk so perfectly that when it comes to mix, I don't really have to do much to get it sitting in the mix.

22nd September 2003, 01:54 PM	#17
toolstudio Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 540	Hi, I'm just having a break in mixing an new upcoming hiphop album and find this thread. So I jump in with my 2c. As the others stated, the Rode and the DBX are nothing to get an pro result. But you are right, it's enough to find out about your skills. The Sony C800G is my first choice in recording rap and r&b vocals. The C800G has that nice air which works really great, also the highs are a littlebit, what I call "japanese plastic" when compared to the highs of an C12 for example. Not to be meant negative... As an alround rap mic the U87 is pretty good, but no Rode. So in 95% the C800G is a nobrainer. On preamps I go to something big and beefy sounding, mostly a Neve 1064 or Neve 1073, sometimes an old API312 for main raps, doubles and adds. I just have an Neve 1081 rack in fromt of me which I really like, it has the Neve Sound but isn't as warm (dull??) as the 1064 and 1073. I'm just fighting with me to keep it or not. On R&B things, I'm just starting some R&B tracks next thursday, I mostly use a hifi path for the background tracks, like an Brauner VM1 to an old Focusrite ISA110 (actually an 85110 from a console) or to an Telefunken V76, because if you stack a lotlot of backing vocals you can get a really cool shining if you record it throught an very open sounding path. In mix a usually eq the main raps with the Neve 1064 or 1073. I often use LA2As, CL1B, Neve 32264a as main vocals comps if the vocal is a bid thin, or I use 1176 or the VacRac if the vocal could be a bit brighter. The backgrounds I sum together and through an Neve 33609 or the VacRac Limiters and through a pair of API550a, where I really love the silky 15k. yo man, time to go back to work wolfgang toolhouse studios, germany

23rd September 2003, 03:44 AM	#18
j.m Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Germany, Bavaria Posts: 82	Hmmm, so far so good. thanx for the replies and suggestions. The mic-thing was a really no-brainer for me. If I would own a Sony C800G or U87, I wouldn't be "that" stupid to ask if it's the right thing for recording vocals of any kind. Just two killer microphones. But they are about 5 to over 10 times above my budget. That the right equipment really does make a difference is really not discussible. I'm really aware of the differences. The suggestions and tips for the signal-chain were really, really nice, informative and interesting. Even though, I can't afford them to buy, it's just cool to see which preferences people have. And If I should start to make money out of music, I know now what to aim for. Still got some requirement for a few suggestions. If possible? Would be really helpful!!! From what I've learned now, within my budget it's impossible to get pro results. But maybe could someone just give me a personal oppinion on this hardware. first the dbx 376, would it be better to go for the Channel One from SPL? Would it make difference for the better? Or is it same sh**? Maybe I'm dissing myself know, but can't help it anyway. I own a SPL StereoQ and really like that unit and because of the good reputation of the company, thought maybe it's a better alternative to the dbx 376? Am I wrong? (especially for the vocals?) and the Rode NT1000, is there a better mic for smooth vocals in the approximately same price-range? Some suggestions on this two questions would be - really - helpful. (please no more U87,Sony replies - i've learned my lesson) BIG thanx j.m

23rd September 2003, 11:25 PM	#20
jazzius II Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,005	I think you can get very reasonable results from cheap(ish) mic's/pre's, as long as you make good use of proximity effect , eq the sound well later and don't overload the mic/pre (unless that's the sound you're going for)----and of course......crap in/turd out.

24th September 2003, 01:33 AM	#22
PultecTweaker Gear Head Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: usa Posts: 70	I think he also needs to find his voice? no? get used to hearing himself listening to himself rapping since he stated he was more of a beat programmer/producer it took me a year to finally get used to listening back to my vocals without cringing

24th September 2003, 03:08 PM	#23
j.m Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Germany, Bavaria Posts: 82	Muchas, muchas gracias. VERY BIG thanx to you e-cue!!! I think I will somehow manage to get the Shure SM7b and the SPL Channel One. Because the other things are (despite of the price) a little bit hard get me hands on here in germany. Don't know who sells them! Anyway, very helpful replies. And I know that my requests were not forwarded to "High End". But I needed some tips from "Pro's" who make and have experience in commercial/chart music and not from some Homerecordists who don't have more anticipation than me. No diss against them, 'cause I'm one of them. But the "most" of them never did a successful pro record, so how could they advise me? The blind leading the blind? How could a "rocker" advise a "hip-hoper" what suits his style best? If they did knew how it works, they would be doing big business. The one thing is to know it theoretical, the other to pull it off the right way in practice. To answer the question about my recording medium. I use Cubase SX and will soon move over to SX2.0, which has the same excact audio-engine as Nuendo2.0 (the same sound-quality). But don't know how to judge that. I just like "the Sound" that I'm getting from SX and I'm comparing a lot to commercial records. Would like to give you a chance to hear what I'm doing. But don't have no webspace or something like that and MP3 and such sites, sorry not for me. Hey e-cue, maybe I could pm/send you a short snippet of what I'm doing (if it's technically possible) if your interested, so that you could judge for yourself if I'm a "pr**k" and don't know what I'm speaking about (audio), or not. If you don't want to be bothered, than it's fine, too. It is stylisticly influenced by a producer which you should maybe know if your working with Missy Elliott. I really hope that what I do is no "style-biting", but If you had to compare me with all those producers, it's "mostley" very bouncy. Because that's just what I like the most, to make people move and dance. And I'm a very big fan of such Sounds/Music, but even though, I'm trying to do it as creative as I can. Not "copying/duplicating"! Giving it an own touch and stay as versatile as possible. So, thank you all for the replies I've got so far. Really interesting insights in the working-practice of the pro engineers. cheers j.m

24th September 2003, 03:12 PM	#24
j.m Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Germany, Bavaria Posts: 82	Oh I forgot, sound and beats are recorded into SX all from my Synth-Workstation and some VSTi's, no external "samples" or things like that.

24th September 2003, 08:28 PM	#25
tunesmith Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Just northeast of LaLa land Posts: 709	JM - You've got the hunger man, and that's what's important. As a fellow in a similar position as you (big dreams, good ears, and a shit budget) I really feel your angst as you want to make world class music. However, let me give you a liberating piece of truth. You cannot do it. I would love to hear e-cue's input on this, but I bet when Timbaland and Missy