8 things that separate pros from amateurs

[JoeyThomas]

A lot of people are getting caught up in the specifics of how "groove" is created. I don't think it matters how you get there (programming or playing), but having groove is without a doubt an essential part of great production.

And its not like quantizing means no groove and not quantizing means great groove. I play in all my drums, then slide midi notes around, apply different percentages of quantization, etc. There are many ways to get there, but whether its a more quantized southern production or a real loose RZA type sampled beat... the drums just gotta move people.

[cardinal]

I agree with most of these points and would also add marketing, advertising, and public relations. Anyone that has all of the production skills in the world will go unheard of without sufficient channels to create awareness of their work.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by JoeyThomas

A lot of people are getting caught up in the specifics of how "groove" is created. I don't think it matters how you get there (programming or playing), but having groove is without a doubt an essential part of great production.

And its not like quantizing means no groove and not quantizing means great groove. I play in all my drums, then slide midi notes around, apply different percentages of quantization, etc. There are many ways to get there, but whether its a more quantized southern production or a real loose RZA type sampled beat... the drums just gotta move people.

If you're very dope on the programming side of things - you can totally program something with groove.

But laying something into a step sequencer and moving the swing setting a little forward isn't the same as really getting in with a groove and programming the shit out of something.

Yeah, quantizing one thing doesn't really mean anything. Groove is about the relationship of different elements in terms of both timing and dynamics.

But again, if you're dropping your stuff into a sequencer and hard quantizing chances are it's going to sound stale. Not to say it can't happen - but for real - it's actually MORE work to get that to sound exciting than to just tap it out with some human feel.

[impact87]

INDEED

[JuiceGodBeats]

Nice post! It's always good to think about these things!

[evilpeezy]

Originally Posted by Storyville

I'm sure this'll spark a little argument, but I'm gonna go for it anyway

This is from an article I wrote - it's a list of eight things that separate pro productions from amateur productions:

1. Groove

Sequencers are extremely convenient, and so is quantization. However, a totally sequenced beat, or one where everything is 100% quantized will sound extremely robotic – like an old school Casio keyboard demo. Robotic has it’s place, but Pop music, RnB, House music, and Hip Hop all have roots in Funk and Jazz. If there isn’t some kind of rhythmic push and pull, some kind of human dynamics and timing involved, the track will sound stale! Amateurs program, Pros play it out.

2. Dynamics

Following that idea – music needs contrast. If everything stays at the same volume, the hi-hat just ticking away, the snares and kicks hitting exactly the same – it doesn’t sound emotional. There’s no movement. Things need to hit differently to be believable.

agree with everything but those 2.

A. Quantized beats all depends on what you are going after. Southern rap is almost always quantized and sounds good for the drum patterns and melodies. New york Hip hop sounds better unquantized. Its all opinion.

2. i like my drums and snares all the same level. Thats my preference does not make somebody a amateur at all. Its all opinions on how you like your volume and beats. i never been able to tell "oh shit that snare at the 3rd measure is way too soft," or "he needs to turn that snare down on the 3rd measure down with the hi-hats." ITs all musical preference not professional versus amateur.

[evilpeezy]

actually after i read this again and thought about . None of that makes sense to being a professional anything. To make somebody a professionl in any genre, job, and sport. Its financial success, Training/Practice. Quantize is matter of opinion So if Tom bought a MPC at 16 and can groove his beats without quantize and layer sounds hes a professional? Or if Multi Grammy winning producer with 20 years of exprience in the business quantizses his music but is very success that makes him a amateur? Almost everything you described is opinion based on taste of music. Professinal to me will always remain described as success and experience.

[Tnevz]

I think his point was that a lot of amateurs tend to overlook the stuff he pointed out.
Amateur and pro can be pretty broad definition wise. But I don't think you'll be making much money making music if you've never considered any of the things he's mentioned here.

Quantization is definitley an option that you can be succesful with. However, if you can make a beat completely unquantized as well, then it only makes sense to me that you would be a better musician and have more opportunities because of it.

[evilpeezy]

Originally Posted by Tnevz

I think his point was that a lot of amateurs tend to overlook the stuff he pointed out.
Amateur and pro can be pretty broad definition wise. But I don't think you'll be making much money making music if you've never considered any of the things he's mentioned here.

Quantization is definitley an option that you can be succesful with. However, if you can make a beat completely unquantized as well, then it only makes sense to me that you would be a better musician and have more opportunities because of it.

you can make money doing none of the following in music described, if theres a audience and demand for it for the music you put out. Its all about taste. tons of producers on here are doing exactly what he stated and making zero off their music and tons are doing nothing he said and making money. Its all opinion theres no rule to music and I find every production Insane Clown Posse makes utter garbage but they are making tons more money then 99.9% of people on this forum, because they have a fanbase who likes what they do its all opinion. There is absolutely no formula to art. Painters have splashed paint on a canvas and called it abstract which I wouldn't pay 1 dollar for but somebody sees the art and pays 1 million dollars for it. ITS ART, there is NO RULES. Look at timbalind when he first came out. He had a unorthodoxed beat structure. He set himself apart from everyone else, but it worked for him. NOBDDY could copy his music. ITS art. Professionalism comes from success however you get it and no matter how you acheive it.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by evilpeezy

actually after i read this again and thought about . None of that makes sense to being a professional anything. To make somebody a professionl in any genre, job, and sport. Its financial success, Training/Practice. Quantize is matter of opinion So if Tom bought a MPC at 16 and can groove his beats without quantize and layer sounds hes a professional? Or if Multi Grammy winning producer with 20 years of exprience in the business quantizses his music but is very success that makes him a amateur? Almost everything you described is opinion based on taste of music. Professinal to me will always remain described as success and experience.

That's totally fair. People can make something from anything. My list is developed as observational based on working with people who are extremely successful and people who are still developing what they do. These are what I see as the main differences.

Ultimately what this stuff comes down to is tried and true musical approaches. Change, dynamics, momentum. If being perfectly quantized works for you then it works - 'nuff said. But - maybe it doesn't. Don't get too hung up on the title though, I'm not challenging anyone's professionalism here.

[evilpeezy]

Originally Posted by Storyville

That's totally fair. People can make something from anything. My list is developed as observational based on working with people who are extremely successful and people who are still developing what they do. These are what I see as the main differences.

Ultimately what this stuff comes down to is tried and true musical approaches. Change, dynamics, momentum. If being perfectly quantized works for you then it works - 'nuff said. But - maybe it doesn't. Don't get too hung up on the title though, I'm not challenging anyone's professionalism here.

by the way dont mind the bad spelling i responded on my cell phone. lol

[evilpeezy]

Originally Posted by Tnevz

However, if you can make a beat completely unquantized as well, then it only makes sense to me that you would be a better musician and have more opportunities because of it.

could you give me some examples where unquantizing would bring me opportunities? Other then a customer requesting a unquantized beat? I'm intrigued on that

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by evilpeezy

by the way dont mind the bad spelling i responded on my cell phone. lol

Don't mind my bad spelling, sometimes I spell things rong

[evilpeezy]

i will agree that what you stated is a good formula to follow to becoming a better producer and musician by general rules, I just cant agree it makes somebody a professional or a amateur if they dont follow those guidelines.

[Storyville]

And actually your comment brings up a really good point specifically about underground Hip Hop. Beat You Down made this point in a previous thread, he kind of got jumped on for it, but it was a valid point:

In underground Hip Hop there's a line - to find innovation but without being too "musical". In foundational Hip Hop it's really about the rapper and the lyrics, and if the production distracts from that it can be counterproductive. There's still a groove to it, a push and pull, but it's more locked in. Ultimately, here, the vocal IS the most dynamic element.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by evilpeezy

i will agree that what you stated is a good formula to follow to becoming a better producer and musician by general rules, I just cant agree it makes somebody a professional or a amateur if they dont follow those guidelines.

I completely agree - contrary to the title of the article.

But, I'm willing to bet that most professional producers are very much aware of these ideas and are making distinct choices - as opposed to not having considered or explored alternatives. Although I'm sure there are those out there who haven't - that just found their thing and it worked.

[evilpeezy]

100% agree with that statement. I feel the title should of been what will make you a better producer. i quantize every element of my music. WHY? Because I like my drums and keys all on time. Its my personal preference. I have good timing BUt i am not perfect so instead of replaying a melody I may have keyed in my head over I'd rather get it how I want it the first time. I create my melodies to a grid in my head prior to recording it. I consider myself a professional since I live and pay every bill off my music and have a professional studio setup, funded entirely independently. With 15 years making music and no job, 401k, dental, insurance.....damn now that I think about it i been in the wrong job for the last 15 years i wonder what I will do when I turn 65 maybe its time to sell the equipment and work a 9-5

[Tnevz]

Originally Posted by evilpeezy

could you give me some examples where unquantizing would bring me opportunities? Other then a customer requesting a unquantized beat? I'm intrigued on that

Being better at your craft and knowing more, constantly learning, generally gives you more opportunities in any field. No?

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by evilpeezy

100% agree with that statement. I feel the title should of been what will make you a better producer. i quantize every element of my music. WHY? Because I like my drums and keys all on time. Its my personal preference. I have good timing BUt i am not perfect so instead of replaying a melody I may have keyed in my head over I'd rather get it how I want it the first time. I create my melodies to a grid in my head prior to recording it. I consider myself a professional since I live and pay every bill off my music and have a professional studio setup, funded entirely independently. With 15 years making music and no job, 401k, dental, insurance.....damn now that I think about it i been in the wrong job for the last 15 years i wonder what I will do when I turn 65 maybe its time to sell the equipment and work a 9-5

Yeah... "make you a better producer" don't quite grab as much attention though!

At the same time - it's also worth considering that there's a difference between on time and on time. If you are working a sustaining sine bass or square bass into your track, you may find it works better to have it hit just ever so slightly after your kick. Or, if it's an attacky bass or a live bass guitar, sometimes you get a little lift by playing just a touch ahead. OR the envelope of your bass sound effects the timing - so you have your bass exactly on the grid, but the envelope has a 10ms attack, which effectively changes the sense of timing.

Lastly, some elements really don't have an "on the grid". If you program a ramping string or brass pad on the one, it's actually playing well behind the beat. You'd have to program it ahead to make it feel "on time."

[KT1]

Originally Posted by Storyville

Yeah... "make you a better producer" don't quite grab as much attention though!

At the same time - it's also worth considering that there's a difference between on time and on time. If you are working a sustaining sine bass or square bass into your track, you may find it works better to have it hit just ever so slightly after your kick. Or, if it's an attacky bass or a live bass guitar, sometimes you get a little lift by playing just a touch ahead. OR the envelope of your bass sound effects the timing - so you have your bass exactly on the grid, but the envelope has a 10ms attack, which effectively changes the sense of timing.

Lastly, some elements really don't have an "on the grid". If you program a ramping string or brass pad on the one, it's actually playing well behind the beat. You'd have to program it ahead to make it feel "on time."

Just one point about 'on time' totally agree with you story. All the best performances IMO are 'on time' ofcourse! That being said moving in and out of a tempo during a bar is what gives character. Everything spot on is actually really static and boring.

Listen to some Tori Amos - the tempo changes during some bars and back by the end of the bar. That is not 'ON TIME' but is on time if ya dig.

Robot timing is ugly and stale - whatever way you look at it. Wether you achieve it with a tiny bit more release just carrying over the beat or playing in and out of a groove it's all good.

Ofcourse this is subjective to a point - i mean some electronic requires robotic timing. For me a groove is determined by human feel.

[e-are]

Originally Posted by JoeyXoto

I smiled reading this. Makes me feel like a pro.

funny, i frowned. Not there yet. Working on it tho. Great post Story. I'll have to put it in my folder.

[KChapman]

It turned out I have so many things to learn and to practice, I better get going to improve my skills. Thanx 4 the information!

[cal1]

All True. Especially 5 & 8 are points to consider before bouncing a beat and sending it through the world!

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by cal1

All True. Especially 5 & 8 are points to consider before bouncing a beat and sending it through the world!

Yeah, 5 & 8 are ones that I personally favor. I think the unique moments and subtleties contribute a lot to the production factor. They are good for creating personality and keeping the energy fresh. I often find that if the production doesn't have these things, when it comes time to mix I have to invent them.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by KT1

Just one point about 'on time' totally agree with you story. All the best performances IMO are 'on time' ofcourse! That being said moving in and out of a tempo during a bar is what gives character. Everything spot on is actually really static and boring.

Listen to some Tori Amos - the tempo changes during some bars and back by the end of the bar. That is not 'ON TIME' but is on time if ya dig.

Robot timing is ugly and stale - whatever way you look at it. Wether you achieve it with a tiny bit more release just carrying over the beat or playing in and out of a groove it's all good.

Ofcourse this is subjective to a point - i mean some electronic requires robotic timing. For me a groove is determined by human feel.

For me, groove is the relationship of elements in terms of timing and dynamics. I appreciate human feel and favor it as a personal preference.

There are groups that use very static quantization - Freezepop, Peaches, for example - but that's kind of their thing.

But for the most part, even when the drums are hard to the grid, there's something else creating a push or a pull against them. With Dance-House usually more about the release of the sounds, getting this kind of heart beat feeling - an in-out in-out. With trap music a lot of it is either the tempo negotiation that shows up in the hi-hats and the heavy pocket with all the big-hit synth/orchestra layers (and the vocals of course).

[Jorg]

can I add please:

9: Actually working hard on great songs and doing the best you possibly can no matter what it takes rather then spending your time on forums.....





Got a feeling I'll get killed for this now. haha

[PopularDemand]

Left turn to mindset.

The biggest factor I find between pros and amateurs is the appreciation of the next man's accomplishments even when it's not something you do.

The guy who constantly calls a platinum producer or artist "garbage" usually puts a big "A" for amateur over his head in a studio lounge or event.

[Sampler Man]

Great points by the OP. I didn't read all the replies so I'm sorry if its been discussed. Did any one mention recording budget. Amateurs don't always have the money to record through a Neve console in a pro studio and then mix on the newest SSL desk. Buy the best instruments, hire the best musicians and engineers, access to choirs and orchestras. A good amature will make something great using limited resources.

[thisisfdr]

Originally Posted by Storyville

For me, groove is the relationship of elements in terms of timing and dynamics. I appreciate human feel and favor it as a personal preference.

There are groups that use very static quantization - Freezepop, Peaches, for example - but that's kind of their thing.

But for the most part, even when the drums are hard to the grid, there's something else creating a push or a pull against them. With Dance-House usually more about the release of the sounds, getting this kind of heart beat feeling - an in-out in-out. With trap music a lot of it is either the tempo negotiation that shows up in the hi-hats and the heavy pocket with all the big-hit synth/orchestra layers (and the vocals of course).

not sure if this is what you meant, but do you guys ever find that the artists vocal creates a groove in the track thru his or hers own sense of rhythm and cadence during the performance. there are artists that i feel do this very well, and its hard to say if its the perfrmance, the track, or a combo that creates the groove on those tracks.

[illacov]

I can agree on all points.

I guess on some level though we don't need to tell a duck to quack?

Meaning that some of this stuff while qualitative in nature is inherent to the genre as it is and if you come from a decent lineage for production then you are always trying to shoot for these things holistically as a producer. Its ingrained into your steelo so to speak.

I always know I've done a good job producing a song when people are asking me to turn up the element that their ear latches on to and I have to break it gently to them that their hearing sympathetic harmony

As well its often that little touch of bleed that makes its way into a phrase that people are always latching onto.

I oftentimes mic a guitar cabinet facing the speaker monitors with a 58 and the monitors are set at a moderate level. So you get the drum bleed from the monitors, which kind of ties the guitar or keyboard parts to the drums of the song a bit (as long as you don't change them lol) and you also get the WHUT WAS DAT bleed.

I can't say that the formula Story refers to is a recipe for success but he's right on the money when it comes to evaluating production.
I have a bit of a traditional mindset as well, before I was a producer, I was an engineer and I was fortunate enough to spend so much time with producers that you kind of environmentally absorb. If you have a musical mind then assisting on sessions with a producer or even mixing their songs gives you some great fodder when it comes time for you to organize your own cosmic slop.

Great article Matt!


Peace
Illumination