Re Amp - How?! mics pre's?! Im lost..

[KT1]

Hey slutz! I need some good advice. I want to re-amp my synths - get some of that tube action going on! I love the way synths sound through an amp when playing live and so throught..why not capture that as audio?!

First off - Have i got it right in that this is what re-amping can be used for? If so second question is how hard is it to do?!

Is it like recording vocals..does my room have to fit a recording environment perfectly? I'm assuming a dynamic and gate would be enough?

Any great suggestions for Amps..Mics and pre?

Thanks

[LeoLeoLeo]

1st you need a reamp box.

From there, go where ever.

Usual setup

Line out daw/keyboard>reamp box>gtr amp>mic>mic pre> line in daw.

Best amps to use? The cheap small ones at pawn shops & used music stores.
.

[KT1]

Originally Posted by LeoLeoLeo

1st you need a reamp box.

From there, go where ever.

Usual setup

Line out daw/keyboard>reamp box>gtr amp>mic>mic pre> line in daw.

Also need a nice amp! It's for all my snths and want some sexy mojo!

Please can you suggest:

1) Reamp box
2) Amp's
3) Mic's
4) Mic Pre

Combination is very important!

[LeoLeoLeo]

Just the same setup as a vox should be fine. A Reamp V2 is fine. Mic- from kids toy to a u47.

I reamp thru 2 different types of leslie's & small micro amps to full stacks.
Reamping is limitless

[chris carter]

You can also use a passive direct box backwards instead of a reamp box. That's how reamping was done for eons before the convenience of a reamp box. You will, however, need to either a) turn the volume down on the track (not such a good option) or b) use an inline pad on the output (now the INPUT) of the direct box (much better option!).

[KT1]

Thanks for the suggestions both Chris and LEO. Budget should support a reamp box which is good - because i can see myself doing a 'ME' and breaking something! All this use input as output stuff - as simple as it is - usually result in the MUPPET aka me screwing something up. Easier it is the better!

I'm just thinking about amps and Mics as we speak. Also i have been dying to get a decent preamp or two! so this is a great justification for it! :D which one! had my eye on the neve's for a while!

[SEED78]

pre amp wise, on a middling budget people are gonna mention the GAP 73 for mono and the ART PRO MPA Gold for stereo/dual.

I have a vintage valve jobby for mono at the mo, want a DAV for stereo at some point, not valve but great quality at decent price.

re amp thing is new to me - but have considered a DI recently for my SH-2.

am also considering a 8 way DI box for my MPC outputs. only seen a Bluck-ringer at the mo though.
Behringer ULTRA-DI PRO DI800 Professional Mains/Phantom Powered 8-Channel DI-Box | DV247

[G. Kaye]

Why not just mic an amp first, to begin with? Re-amping is great for sending the audio through multiple amps, but if your just recording direct the first time, its not really re-amping. You'd just be amping it once. Might as well just record through the amp to begin with. Mic it and send that signal into your audio interface. I dont think recording into your daw first then sending it back out, then back in again would have advantage. Just seems like it would be extra work for nothing

[G. Kaye]

As for amps, I think the best of the low-end tube amps is the fender champion 600, 5w tube practice amp, but great for recording. It has a keyboard input, but I probably wouldnt try any synth basslines through it as its only a 6" speaker. But bass sounds better direct anyways, imo, and you could use the amp for chords/leads (mid-treble stuff) with your syhnths. You could get a keyboard amp instead that would handle all freq, but most affordable ones are solid state. If you want a tube keyboard amp probably have to spend a lot extra. Personally a good 5w guitar tube amp is great alternative, as long as you dont need it for that really deep sub bass, you cn probably use it for low-mid type bass, and it has an out put so you could drive the amp through a 10-12" woofer if you wanted to add one later. Get an SM57 and you're good to go, probably get both used for $150-200. If you want to spend extra on an upgraded mic pre amp you can, but not needed. Your audio interface should already have decent pre amps.

Here's a good demo of how the 600 sounds.

[KT1]

Thanks for the advice g Kaye makes sense.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Gearslutz.com

[Storyville]

Just to clarify, a reamp is just an impedance bridge. Amps, stomp pedals, etc, expect to see a hi-impedance signal. The output of an interface, DI box, or mic pre is low impedance. So the only use for a reamp is if you are going from the output of an interface, DI box, mic pre, or other low-z source into something like an amp or pedal.

The output of most synths is Hi-Z, if I'm not mistaken, so you actually don't need a reamp to go into an amplifier.

That said - I love reamps for two reasons. 1) I can use stomp pedals as signal processors in the mix phase. 2) I can run a VSTi or DI'd guitar out to an actual amp, or to the DI input of a preamp for some flavorful lovin'.


EDIT: In terms of mics and amps... that's a big question. There's bass amps, guitar amps, and keyboard amps - and they all sound different. Mics, it depends on the sound you want. For punchy stuff, I generally prefer dynamics. For power stuff, I like Royer ribbons. For something where I want to capture a sheeny top end, a modern sounding condenser. For rich leads, vintage sounding condenser. That's just my general rock formula though.

[SEED78]

some pearls of wisdom on this thread - glad my knowledge is almost as limited as my pocket otherwise my to buy list would last forever, right now it only stretches a few years into the future. for now...

[PapiBlack]

Originally Posted by Storyville

Just to clarify, a reamp is just an impedance bridge. Amps, stomp pedals, etc, expect to see a hi-impedance signal. The output of an interface, DI box, or mic pre is low impedance. So the only use for a reamp is if you are going from the output of an interface, DI box, mic pre, or other low-z source into something like an amp or pedal.

The output of most synths is Hi-Z, if I'm not mistaken, so you actually don't need a reamp to go into an amplifier.

That said - I love reamps for two reasons. 1) I can use stomp pedals as signal processors in the mix phase. 2) I can run a VSTi or DI'd guitar out to an actual amp, or to the DI input of a preamp for some flavorful lovin'.


EDIT: In terms of mics and amps... that's a big question. There's bass amps, guitar amps, and keyboard amps - and they all sound different. Mics, it depends on the sound you want. For punchy stuff, I generally prefer dynamics. For power stuff, I like Royer ribbons. For something where I want to capture a sheeny top end, a modern sounding condenser. For rich leads, vintage sounding condenser. That's just my general rock formula though.

Most synths are line level actually

[Storyville]

I believe line-level describes level, whereas impedance describes impedance, and that the two are not mutually exclusive. In other words you can, and often do, have a line-level Hi-Z signal, or a line-level low-Z signal. Could be wrong here though, gonna phone a friend.

[chris carter]

You can't use a keyboard with a guitar amp. Keyboards are line-level, which is generally way too hot for a guitar amp, and the impedence is too low. Keyboards do not have hi impedence outputs like a guitar, nor are they as low as a microphone. They are like other line-level devices (which is what I think Papiblack was saying). So in order to use a keyboard with a guitar amp, you have to up the impedence and drop the level. You can do this with a reamp box, or a pad plus a reversed passive DI. You can get away with just dropping the level, but the resultant sound may or may not be to your liking.

On the other hand, you can use a keyboard with a keyboard amp. Keyboard amps have line-level inputs specifically so you can plug in a keyboard.

You can litterally destroy a guitar amp and guitar pedals by plugging keyboards directly into them (been there, done that!).

[Storyville]

Well alright then.

[LeoLeoLeo]

You can plug headphones into the main out & hear sound. It's not the proper signal or ohms for the phones, bit you'll hear it.

Plug phones into a guitar. Nothing. As the tranduced signal from the gtr pickups have not been ampfiled and are and extremely low voltage & different impedence since the signal has amplified yet.

The guitar amp is designed/expecting this low unamplifed signal. This causes instant distortion & tone shift....and possible damage.

Same principal of running a keyboard directly into mic pre using a 1/4 to xlr cable. Works.....not what Id do...

Ever plug a sm57 into a line out? Don't!!!!!! But it makes sound!!!

[G. Kaye]

Originally Posted by chris carter

You can't use a keyboard with a guitar amp. Keyboards are line-level, which is generally way too hot for a guitar amp, and the impedence is too low. Keyboards do not have hi impedence outputs like a guitar, nor are they as low as a microphone. They are like other line-level devices (which is what I think Papiblack was saying). So in order to use a keyboard with a guitar amp, you have to up the impedence and drop the level. You can do this with a reamp box, or a pad plus a reversed passive DI. You can get away with just dropping the level, but the resultant sound may or may not be to your liking.

On the other hand, you can use a keyboard with a keyboard amp. Keyboard amps have line-level inputs specifically so you can plug in a keyboard.

You can litterally destroy a guitar amp and guitar pedals by plugging keyboards directly into them (been there, done that!).

Keith Emerson used to power his Hammond with a guitar amp. I've done it on the 600 w/ no problems, but would'nt recommend trying on any expensive amps for reasons you said.

From wiki..

During the Brain Salad Surgery tour of 1974 (one show of which was documented on the 3-LP set, Welcome Back My Friends, to the Show That Never Ends), Emerson's keyboard setup included the Hammond C-3 organ, run through multiple Leslie speakers driven by HiWatt guitar amplifiers

Keith Emerson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Tnevz]

Good informative thread. I've been thinking about getting a reamp box but knew there was a way to use a DI.

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by KT1

Hey slutz! I need some good advice. I want to re-amp my synths - get some of that tube action going on! I love the way synths sound through an amp when playing live and so throught..why not capture that as audio?!

First off - Have i got it right in that this is what re-amping can be used for? If so second question is how hard is it to do?!

Is it like recording vocals..does my room have to fit a recording environment perfectly? I'm assuming a dynamic and gate would be enough?

Any great suggestions for Amps..Mics and pre?

Thanks

why reamp? just play the parts midi send the midi to the keyb->amp->mic->pre->tapemachine/converter
and then just record them

[KT1]

Thanks guys. It's a terminology thing. Simply put I thought the process of re-amping was recording AMP output as opposed to going straight in.

Simply put i want to capture the sound of my synths as heard from some nice valve/tubes..

Question is no longer how to re-amp. Question is now which amp/mic pre combination will give me some nice colour in that chain?

Thank ye

[LeoLeoLeo]

Originally Posted by G. Kaye

Keith Emerson used to power his Hammond with a guitar amp. I've done it on the 600 w/ no problems, but would'nt recommend trying on any expensive amps for reasons you said.

From wiki..



Keith Emerson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bet ya 5 cents he was using this for the Leslie. And using some sort of split for his hiwatt.

Hiwatt's can't run Leslie cabs unless they are the passive ones unless modified.

[G. Kaye]

Originally Posted by LeoLeoLeo

Bet ya 5 cents he was using this for the Leslie. And using some sort of split for his hiwatt.

Hiwatt's can't run Leslie cabs unless they are the passive ones unless modified.

I have no idea what he used, you might be right. But if its an impedance clash that prevents running a keyboard into a guitar amp like you say, then why can you run a keyboard into a bass amp with no problem? Bass and guitar are both Hi-Z. If you can run a keyboard into a bass amp, you should be able to do the same into a guitar amp with no middleman box needed.

I've used bass amps for keyboards for decades, never had any problem, and have been using guitar amps for keyboards recently with no problem. While it may technically be wrong, sometimes the best sounds are created by using the technically "wrong" equipment.

imo, the risk is to the speaker not the amp, but for the 600, replacement speakers are only 20-30 bucks, so its worth the risk to me. I wouldn't experiment on an expensive amp, but these practice amps are pretty much made for experimenting.

[G. Kaye]

Originally Posted by KT1

Thanks guys. It's a terminology thing. Simply put I thought the process of re-amping was recording AMP output as opposed to going straight in.

Simply put i want to capture the sound of my synths as heard from some nice valve/tubes..

Question is no longer how to re-amp. Question is now which amp/mic pre combination will give me some nice colour in that chain?

Thank ye

Depends on your budget/needs. If you want a tube keyboard amp, you're probably looking at least $500. If you just want to get the sound of a mic'd amp and don't care if its a tube, a decent solid state keyboard amp can be had for around $100-200 used like the Hartke KM models. Still sound really good, just not tube. Thats why I suggested using a guitar amp, because you'll have to spend a lot more to get tube sound from a keyboard amp.

A tube bass amp is probably more practical though, as you'd be able to play full range of notes on your synth through it with no worry of blowing speakers. And probably can find a good one in between the cost of those guitar practice amps and a tube keyboard amp.

I've used a Hartke tube bass amp/cab with keyboard for years, sounds great, and you can probably get a combo setup for $250-300 used.

Something like this though you'll probably want to go with 10" speakers instead of 15's.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hartke-HA-20...item3a6e469125

[LeoLeoLeo]

Originally Posted by G. Kaye

I have no idea what he used, you might be right. But if its an impedance clash that prevents running a keyboard into a guitar amp like you say, then why can you run a keyboard into a bass amp with no problem? Bass and guitar are both Hi-Z. If you can run a keyboard into a bass amp, you should be able to do the same into a guitar amp with no middleman box needed.

I've used bass amps for keyboards for decades, never had any problem, and have been using guitar amps for keyboards recently with no problem. While it may technically be wrong, sometimes the best sounds are created by using the technically "wrong" equipment.

imo, the risk is to the speaker not the amp, but for the 600, replacement speakers are only 20-30 bucks, so its worth the risk to me. I wouldn't experiment on an expensive amp, but these practice amps are pretty much made for experimenting.

Like I said. It'll work.

Once, again. It'll work. The tone shift you get from the impedence mismatch. Some people want that, most times I don't.

Ehh, I say blow something expensive up. It'll sound better!!! Ha!

[illacov]

Long story short, you guys have missed the point.

Impedance is best from LOW to HI.

The output of a modern synth, lets take a Korg R3 for example, spits out 1.1 kohm on the outputs in stereo and 550 ohm in mono.

For a guitar amplifier expecting up to a 10kohm load this is GREAT.

550 ohms to 10kohms is going to be a good coupling. The issue that people are referring to is about line level voltage coupling with technology expecting much lower voltage. This is where the danger of distorting the signal comes into play.

The thing that you have to apply here is the same philosophy for pairing microphones to preamps.

A microphone has a 150 ohm (usually) or 200 ohm output. Going with the principle from LOW to HIGH, you generally match that microphone to a preamp with 5 to 10 times the impedance on the input.

So for example, if the mic is 150 ohm then selecting a preamp with 1.2 kohms or higher input impedance offers the most opportunity for accuracy and performance. This is also true in the synth situation.

Some amps are more sensitive than others, but there should be a spot in the gain staging that works best without sounding awful especially if your synth has an active volume control.

The damage occurs when you abuse the amplifier by feeding it with too loud of a signal which can then cause issues with the speaker.

You can solve this with 25 cents in resistors by making your own pads if you are concerned about it though. That will most certainly give you some headroom and leave you the freedom to play around even further.

However a nut like me, I just encourage people like Storyville to plug in a Roland into Chubby Checker's Vibroluxe and say play the damn thing. One of the best epiano sounds I'd heard in a LONG LONG LONG time

Peace
Illumination

[wreckingstuff]

Very interesting thread. Thanks KT for starting it, and everybody for dropping the knowledge.

This is a bit of a deviation because it doesn't involve amps, but still relevant to the thread sort of, maybe...

If I wanted to run a channel out of my interface (Balanced line level i/o), through a guitar pedal, and back in for recording, would it be 'best' to go:

Line out > Reamp or reverse DI > Pedal > DI > Line in

Or can I just plug it in, tweak the gain staging, and see what happens.

From bits and pieces of info I have picked up here and there, I am concerned about damaging my gear and/or introducing unwanted noise from the unbalanced pedal.

How do you peeps do it?

[KT1]

Holt smoke this thread has become my worst nightmare...technical! Haha...awsome learning a lot! Thanks for all the input so far!

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Gearslutz.com

[illacov]

To play a modern synth through a guitar amp, turn the synth all the way down and plug it into the guitar amp input.

Say a Fender Blues Deluxe.

Set the amp to clean, turn up the level on the Fender to 50%.

Slowly begin turning up the output level of the synth while you play something, this is a good time to MASH on those keys so you get the loudest velocities.

Once you begin to hear it break up terribly, back off a bit and you should be fine. As long as you aren't checking your input levels with quiet playing, you're fine.

Peace
Illumination