Akai Pro to announce the MPC RENAISSANCE

[Jahrome]

Originally Posted by Nahuel

I was dreaming of a collab beween Ableton and Akai for that soft...Finally it will be Sonnivox... :(

The end product could still come out great, we'll see.

I never really saw the appeal of Live. Sure it time stretches/pitchshifts which is highly regarded...but having those features has never been a major selling point of an MPC. I dislike Live's clip based sequencer as much as I dislike Maschine's method.

[Nahuel]

Pretty cool. For me ableton is the best thing since sliced bread. Seriousely.

Sent from my GT-I5800 using Gearslutz.com App

[Evaw Evisserppo]

Jahrome some of your posts make me wonder what kind of music you are making that you find 30ms latency acceptable.

Yes, all hardware has latency, but to compare 30ms latency to hardware MPCs is laughable. I run RME hardware at 32 samples latency on the Mac Pro, which equates to about 1.5 - 2ms latency or a 3-ish round trip latency. If I control a software sampler from the MPC pads with that level of latency, it is noticeable enough to not 'feel' like the MPC is generating the audio. Even on the much maligned MPC5000, the latency of samples is still the old fashioned 1990s style INSTANT, NEGLIGABLE, UNNOTICEABLE latency that people are used to composing with. In all honesty I am happy with the RME computer latency since it's low enough to still feel very connected, but 30ms? You are talking the kind of figures I thought we'd left behind with Creative Soundblasters running in Directx mode in 1999.

To me that would be utterly unusable, and, I should point out, from the epic Prodikeys video with the mistakenly-hired-insurance-salesman creating an, ahem, 'beat' on the MPC Rennaisance, it's pretty clear the existing 3rd-party alpha software that Numarkai are using on the Ren has shocking latency. How they acheive this on a Macbook Pro which has very good latency for the built in AC97 soundcard is beyond me.

Incidentally, coming back into this century, RME have USB versions of their recent Fireface interfaces that acheive consistent sub 2ms latency, which is what I believe you would need to get MPC-like behaviour from this controller-software combo.

As Roger Linn pointed out himself on another thread here, inside the MPC there are no extraneous bullshit processes running that would throw your timing or latency out of whack, the sequencer receives a command to perform sample x at timing xxx.xxx and it immediately plays that sample from Ram. The immediacy of this hardware experience is something often overlooked in the rush to software samplers, and I know genuine drummers who use an MPC when it comes to incorporating 'finger drumming' into their repertoire, purely because when they've tried the controller->software approach, the part of their brain with all the physical drumming skill signals an emergency bullshit alert when they detect the lag from fingers to ears.

While I actually agree that you could technically make an audio interface inside the Ren behave with very low and usable latency like those RME interfaces, I also know that there is not a rat's chance in hell this is something Akai will acheive in this universe. Your Ren will, if you are lucky, behave somewhere in the 10-15ms zone, under ideal circumstances, probably only on the Mac, once they've released Version 3.5 of the software and driver in 2017, just in time for them to stop making the controllers any more and go solely into iPad apps and midi keytars. And OSX 10.8 Lolcat will immediately break this when released.

------

BTW, to keep suggesting that critics of the new Akai line are Maschine fanboys is disingenuous and rude considering the valid arguments being made. I've been with Akai samplers since nearly the beginning, and I'm sitting with MPC4k and MPC5k side by side on my desk, I've never once touched a Maschine, although from pictures the physical form factor did appeal to me purely due to the size. Had it been internal DSP and a standalone product, I probably would've tried one. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, why wait to fork out more $$$ for these new question marks when you could just hook up your existing MPC to the software sampler of your choice and do the whole controller->software thing today?

[Jahrome]

To help you understand it better...before there was sound cards with 3 ms of latency...there were cards whose best performace was 30ms or greater...and people still made music. Go figure.

30ms of latency has not impacted me one bit. There are 1000 ms in a second. I am questioning what type of music you do if you can't adjust to 30ms. Sounds like your a doing math not creating music. Tip - turn your MPC quantize on, set timing to 1/16th notes, adjust you swing to about 57%, shift the snares -2...you will get a nice little groove.

And yes, many of the individuals in these threads bashing the new MPCs without ever touching one are in fact Machine fanboys. You can do a quick search in the forum and see for yourself.

Additionally, I believe Akai said you can use the sound card of your choice. So if you can use an RME sound card, then there is no issue with latency.

[godphaser]

Over 10ms it starts to be REALLY annoying.

Additionally, I believe Akai said you can use the sound card of your choice.

Yeah but if I HAVE to buy their, sort of "bundled" with the Ren...

[0t0b0t]

Hahaha, 30 ms good enough, are you serious? What are you composing on that setup, Jahrome? Are you flipping slow Vangelis pad synth samples?
For anyone who records unquantized drums on an MP and wants to catch that groove > 2 - 3 ms latency from pad hit to sound is inacceptable.

[jrides]

Realtime time stretch changed how I make music and vastly improved my workflow. Life changing. If I could get it on the jjos, I wouldn't even be reading this thread. The biggest thing the mpc line is lacking. I didn't respect it till I figured out how to use it for traditional hip hop.

Yeah I can get by without it. But I don't want to.

Sent from my Droid using Gearslutz.com

[viewingstuff]

yah, all the music that came before this new holy grail of added latency is all garbage. sly stone, james brown, coltrane, ellington, p-funk...to hell with them and their 'timing'. i don't know what music they were making but it sounds more to me like a math lesson than anything musical....

if they just used 1/16th quantized notes, with a 57.378573782% swing applied to everything, then shifted a farting sound + or - 2.395847 cents they would have been alright. unfortunately they didn't which makes everything they did unlistenable drivel

ps - timing has absolutely unequivocally NOTHING to do with music; 30ms latency ftw! ;P

[miscend]

I can't wait for this to come out now. What's the latest on the release date?

[Reggmail]

Originally Posted by Nahuel

It was kind of a joke, on the honest I did not use Sampla, but it does look extremely outdated and low end... I didnt even bother demoing any Sonivox product, that brand is extremely unappealing to me. Their GUI's look like early 2000's VI's when everyone was using those old kontakt players.

I was dreaming of a collab beween Ableton and Akai for that soft...Finally it will be Sonnivox... :(

The end product could still come out great, we'll see.

Hello Brother Nahuel,
actually the UI of Sampla isn't that bad.
The only problem is when you try and use your own waves.
The sounds that come with Sampla are nice but are proprietary for Sampla.
For some reason unknown to me, I needed to re sample many of my (MPC) audio waves back into Sampla, so that Sampla would play them.
I'm almost sure this shouldn't be the case with the new (MPC).
& blessings.

[daez]

I use maschine but I aint no fanboy to anything except my chandler's but I digress. Maschine has some hang up's with latency in fact all daw systems do. It's the nature of the beast.

[Nahuel]

Originally Posted by Reggmail

Hello Brother Nahuel,
actually the UI of Sampla isn't that bad.
The only problem is when you try and use your own waves.
The sounds that come with Sampla are nice but are proprietary for Sampla.
For some reason unknown to me, I needed to re sample many of my (MPC) audio waves back into Sampla, so that Sampla would play them.
I'm almost sure this shouldn't be the case with the new (MPC).
& blessings.

Ok, so you use it, how do you like it? is it your main drum machine? I rate their GUI design (I'm talking about the look) pretty low but how is the workflow/stability/feature set in your opinion?

[Shobiz]

Akai Pro MPC Renaissance - An update from the engineers, 2/10/12 - YouTube



I'm so f***** hype for this. Lets go!!!!!

[8tracks]

Sonivox used to be called Sonic Reality?
They did the sounds for Sampletank and the SR refills for Reason?
And real time time stretching is confirmed but not in the release version.

[Reggmail]

Originally Posted by Nahuel

Ok, so you use it, how do you like it? is it your main drum machine? I rate their GUI design (I'm talking about the look) pretty low but how is the workflow/stability/feature set in your opinion?

Actually It's pretty cool, I wouldn't do back flips for it though.
I think that it is a good alternative for incorporating an MPC stile of interface on the Computer.
To me, it's has a better layout that is closest to a virtual MPC than NI Battery, although Battery have more cells and in-dept editing capability's than Sampla.
Sampla I would say. is more user friendly, and it has a keyboard + Pads, that's also a plus, with easier access choice lay out for quicker editing.
As I mentioned earlier, it has a weird acceptance of what wave's it will and will not play.
When I contacted Sonivox, they couldn't explain why.... the only way I got around this problem was to sample the wave directly into Sampla then store them.
Here are a few video's on how it's laid out.
(Q, is it your main drum machine?) I have many drum VST's / hardware and it will vary depending on the material i'm working with. Sampla, Geist, Beatthing, Battery, Ableton Live, Superior Drummer, Motif XS, Sonar, MPC-1000, SP-555, Just to name a few..... I'm a junky equipment w*ore..what can I say..

We may be getting a sneak peak at some of the working for the computer UI side of the new MPC...Lol.

Sampla Sampling.



Sampla Key Mapping.



Testing in FL with Sampla files.



Hope this helps.
& blessings.

[Jahrome]

Originally Posted by 0t0b0t

Hahaha, 30 ms good enough, are you serious? What are you composing on that setup, Jahrome? Are you flipping slow Vangelis pad synth samples?
For anyone who records unquantized drums on an MP and wants to catch that groove > 2 - 3 ms latency from pad hit to sound is inacceptable.

Its been so good for me that I haven't felt a need to go out and buy a sound card with improved performance. 30 ms (which is 3/100 of a second) is not messing up any groove in my opinion. But we are talking about me using a Korg Fantom G as a sound card and not an MPC Ren. Akai indicated the goal was to get to under 6 ms and I believe I just read where they have achieved 3 ms of latency.

But even with the best sound cards money can buy, once you start adding native VST instruments and effects....you will have to adjust your buffer sizes...more latency. This is the same issue with any native DAW. This is an MPC DAW. It doesn't mean you have to stop using your hardware MPC. If drum performance is really important to you, bang them out on your hardware MPC and then import the MIDI file into your MPC DAW.

[Nahuel]

aight, thanks for the insight Regg.

[Jahrome]

Scratch that....Dan justs said 2 ms of latency on a Macbook Pro i5!

[mp3]

Sonivox used to be Sonic Implants. They have a $3k symphonic library. Put that in the Ren please...

[0t0b0t]

Originally Posted by Jahrome

Its been so good for me that I haven't felt a need to go out and buy a sound card with improved performance. 30 ms (which is 3/100 of a second) is not messing up any groove in my opinion. But we are talking about me using a Korg Fantom G as a sound card and not an MPC Ren. Akai indicated the goal was to get to under 6 ms and I believe I just read where they have achieved 3 ms of latency.

But even with the best sound cards money can buy, once you start adding native VST instruments and effects....you will have to adjust your buffer sizes...more latency. This is the same issue with any native DAW. This is an MPC DAW. It doesn't mean you have to stop using your hardware MPC. If drum performance is really important to you, bang them out on your hardware MPC and then import the MIDI file into your MPC DAW.

I was already sure the Ren (and the Studio in connection with a good ASIO or Core Audio interface) would be able to go as low as modern drivers allow. I was just commenting on what you said in regards to what latency is good enough.
When we are talking about MPCs in an MPC thread, then 30 ms of latency is on the complete opposite side of the spectrum. All self-contained MPCs have latency in the area of only a few samples from pad hit to sound generation. That's why they are still relevant IMO. They are immediate.. contrary to most DAW based setups. With an MPC, when you record a groove unquantized, when you play it back it's just like you recorded it.

Too much latency and DAW based Midi jitter are IMO the reasons why DAW based setups (no names) don't have tight groove capturing capabilities. Let's hope the Ren's special USB Midi driver and audio drivers can deliver those capabilities.

And to address that other post about funk music of the past and tight timing: I'm not talking about quantization or anything and mathematical correct timing, but on the contrary, the ability to capture groove, natural swing, whatever you want to call it. A system that has almost no or very low latency is needed for that.
If for example Clyde Stubblefield would have had to live with 30 ms of latency between hitting his drums and hearing them, he couldn't have been as good as he was. 30 ms is the time that sound needs to travel 10 m 29 cm (~ 11 yard and 9 inch).

For a device like an MPC (be it self-contained or computer assisted) a latency of 30 ms or even just 1/8th of that is out of the question IMO.

[HazeBros]

I cant hang with 30 ms latency or even half that personally. that is shitloads of latency. The midi jitter is an even bigger problem that will not be easy to address in a midi driver. but I already have tight rigs so im not looking at the ren much. I think the new mps are going to be good for guys that dont use other hardware but I dont see any benefits in replacing my mps in my real rigs, but I will likely buy the studio version just to mess with on a laptop rig.

[Jahrome]

You guys obsessed with latency will have to learn how to adapt to computer-based production. While you can start off with sub 2 ms of latency...what happens when you start adding a bunch of VSTs? Eventually, you will start hearing the pops/clicks and will have to adjust the buffer.....there is no way around this.

[viewingstuff]

says you and what army?

different tools for different jobs just like you said. at least you were honest in admitting that certain crucial tasks are better handled with hardware that has long since established itself as superior in the latency and timing department

this is just one moment in the evolution of the integrated computer production interface. computer based interfaces will continue to evolve long after the ren (eventually) comes out lol

[Jahrome]

Originally Posted by viewingstuff

says you and what army?

different tools for different jobs just like you said. at least you were honest in admitting that certain crucial tasks are better handled with hardware that has long since established itself as superior in the latency and timing department

this is just one moment in the evolution of the integrated computer production interface. computer based interfaces will continue to evolve long after the ren (eventually) comes out lol

I am not sure what you claim I am admitting. Whether you use hardware or software, you have to work within the limitations of said systems. Its silly to complain that the max RAM a hardware MPC has is 512 MB or that sample editing processing is slow. Work within that limitation or use an MPC Ren which doesn't have those limitations. If you can't achieve solid drum tracks recording into the MPC Ren (or Maschine, DAW, etc), then use a hardware MPC.

There are numerous people creating music without an MPC (using software DAWs) than those that are. And they are ceating music just as hot. These guys/gals are working within the limitations (latency and all) of their software based production set-ups.

[0t0b0t]

Originally Posted by Jahrome

You guys obsessed with latency will have to learn how to adapt to computer-based production.

I'm already adapted to computer-based production, but I know why I have my MPCs, my Octatrack and other hardware samplers.
Akai has to adapt with their new computer-aided models to the crowd they are catering to (mostly existing users of their self-contained units), and I guess that's what they are trying at least with that specialized USB-Midi driver and low audio latency.

Originally Posted by Jahrome

While you can start off with sub 2 ms of latency...what happens when you start adding a bunch of VSTs? Eventually, you will start hearing the pops/clicks and will have to adjust the buffer.....there is no way around this.

During composition I don't see the problem... insert VST effects after the bases are captured or use a fast CPU. Most virtual (VST/RTAS/AU) effects don't have extra latency or very low like 3 samples (Softube for example). Don't use the ones with too much added latency, use em wisely to not tax the CPU too much, and there will be no pops/clicks to have to adjust the audio buffers for.

[godphaser]

my Octatrack

Do you like it? Use it a lot?

[0t0b0t]

Originally Posted by godphaser

Do you like it?

Oh yes! It's like a modern day SP1200 now with those new trig modes.. with added DAW functionality, all those crazy Elektron features and an amazing UI/workflow.

Use it a lot?

A lot would stretch it since life always seems to have other plans with me. Then comes this DAW project, that AE job, etc...

[godphaser]

I didn't know about these new trig modes and DAW functionnalities, could you elaborate please?

Maybe in this topic:

Anybody use an Octatrack?

If that doesn't bother you. Thanks.

[0t0b0t]

done

[godphaser]

Thanks a lot!