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When Sampling... Pro Tools - ISSUE/HELP
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Eternal_One
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28th December 2011
Old 28th December 2011
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When Sampling... Pro Tools - ISSUE/HELP

Hey all,

Quick question regarding sampling...

My method is finding a blip in a song, like anybody else would lol, and then cutting via Pro Tools.

I'll find, say a 4 bar loop, and then I'll use Beat Detective inside of Pro Tools (I'm using version 10). It generally does a pretty good job. This correlates the grid with the sample.

After this, I want to add my own sounds/drums/etc. to the sample with Reason as an Aux track - This is where my issue lies.

A LOT of the times, the sample doesn't match up perfectly on the grid. If there are drums in the sample already, the 2 and 4 aren't hitting perfectly on the grid, or if it's just a guitar strum, it's not strumming in accordance with where the 2 and 4 SHOULD hit. I've done extensive research on this and I've learned that switching to polyphonic mode in PT, you can drag certain transients to where you want them to land, but this can alter and screw up the entire sample sometimes, especially if the 2 and 4 transients are pretty far off.

Some people suggested that I should make my drums in Reason hit where the sample's 2 and 4 are hitting... this may mean that in Reason, the grid may or may not be relevant.

I love to sample but this issue has steered me away from sampling... I can't seem to find a solution because it generally happens with every sample I take... I feel like the sample needs to be matched up with the 2 and 4 so when in Reason, my snares or claps will sound so awesome with the sample...

Any opinions? Is this a poor method of sampling? Are there better ways to sample that would wipe away this issue? Songs with samples sound so smooth with sounds that you can hear where clearly added via production. How are other people lining up their samples so their bass kicks, snares, claps, whatever... are hitting so nicely/in time with the sample?

PS - I love using varispeed (in Pro Tools) on samples but it's not like it solves my issue... and unfortunately, unlike polyphonic mode, you can't drag transients to wherever you'd like with varispeed. Varispeed is dope because you can speed up and slow down without hearing any artifacts... you get this almost right away when you change the tempo in polyphonic mode (by artifacts I mean that annoying electronic sound which no one would want to use in a sample).

Time stretching for one part of a sample doesn't work well either because it can completely screw up/alter that one part of the sample.
#2
28th December 2011
Old 28th December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal_One View Post
Hey all,

Quick question regarding sampling...

My method is finding a blip in a song, like anybody else would lol, and then cutting via Pro Tools.

I'll find, say a 4 bar loop, and then I'll use Beat Detective inside of Pro Tools (I'm using version 10). It generally does a pretty good job. This correlates the grid with the sample.

After this, I want to add my own sounds/drums/etc. to the sample with Reason as an Aux track - This is where my issue lies.

A LOT of the times, the sample doesn't match up perfectly on the grid. If there are drums in the sample already, the 2 and 4 aren't hitting perfectly on the grid, or if it's just a guitar strum, it's not strumming in accordance with where the 2 and 4 SHOULD hit. I've done extensive research on this and I've learned that switching to polyphonic mode in PT, you can drag certain transients to where you want them to land, but this can alter and screw up the entire sample sometimes, especially if the 2 and 4 transients are pretty far off.

Some people suggested that I should make my drums in Reason hit where the sample's 2 and 4 are hitting... this may mean that in Reason, the grid may or may not be relevant.

I love to sample but this issue has steered me away from sampling... I can't seem to find a solution because it generally happens with every sample I take... I feel like the sample needs to be matched up with the 2 and 4 so when in Reason, my snares or claps will sound so awesome with the sample...

Any opinions? Songs with samples sound so smooth with sounds that you can hear where clearly added via production. How are other people lining up their samples so their bass kicks, snares, claps, whatever... are hitting so nicely/in time with the sample?

PS - I love using varispeed (in Pro Tools) on samples but it's not like it solves my issue... and unfortunately, unlike polyphonic mode, you can't drag transients to wherever you'd like with varispeed. Varispeed is dope because you can speed up and slow down without hearing any artifacts... you get this almost right away when you change the tempo in polyphonic mode (by artifacts I mean that annoying electronic sound which no one would want to use in a sample).
From my experience with this I would say a few things. First off, I am glad that you asking questions instead of just letting things fester and making you hate sampling. Its important to know that most records prior to the digital age were not recorded to a fixed tempo or grid. Often times they simply locked to each other not an artifical click that doesn't sway or move. My best advice for you is the chop it up more and time scretch each piece so that they are EXACTLY in time. Now it that messes up what FEEL you where going for then try the old "playing the drums in real time" trick. This means you have to play the drums without quantize to match the groove of the orginal track. Those are my two pieces of advice for you, either chop and rearrange to groove to the grid or forget the grid altogether and play without a click or quantize.

I hope I was of help to you my good sir.


PEACE

-1-
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Eternal_One
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28th December 2011
Old 28th December 2011
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Originally Posted by Marshall Oliver View Post
My best advice for you is the chop it up more and time scretch each piece so that they are EXACTLY in time. Now it that messes up what FEEL you where going for then try the old "playing the drums in real time" trick. This means you have to play the drums without quantize to match the groove of the orginal track. Those are my two pieces of advice for you, either chop and rearrange to groove to the grid or forget the grid altogether and play without a click or quantize.
My dude, thank you for your response. Peeped your track by the way, crazy, real smooth. Someone needs to get on that if they haven't already. Going to check out your other stuff too.

I feel you on playing drums, etc. without quantizing. That is tough though, maybe with a little sliding and altering I can make it happen.

I'm thinking of just learning ReCycle and Dr. REX as opposed to using this Pro Tools method, do you recommend this? I just started/have been trying to sample with Pro Tools because I learned about Beat Detective, etc. But if I can chop in ReCycle and load it all into Dr. REX and then be able speed up and slow down (vital) in Dr. REX, why would I not use that? And wouldn't this solve my issue of the 2s and 4s because of ReCycle chopping? What you think? I just need a good method and I'll be more than straight.

Would you mind sharing your methodology and how you get your 2s and 4s and even your bass kicks (if you add them) to match up with your sample(s)?
#4
28th December 2011
Old 28th December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal_One View Post
My dude, thank you for your response. Peeped your track by the way, crazy, real smooth. Someone needs to get on that if they haven't already. Going to check out your other stuff too.

I feel you on playing drums, etc. without quantizing. That is tough though, maybe with a little sliding and altering I can make it happen.

I'm thinking of just learning ReCycle and Dr. REX as opposed to using this Pro Tools method, do you recommend this? I just started/have been trying to sample with Pro Tools because I learned about Beat Detective, etc. But if I can chop in ReCycle and load it all into Dr. REX and then be able speed up and slow down (vital) in Dr. REX, why would I not use that? And wouldn't this solve my issue of the 2s and 4s because of ReCycle chopping? What you think? I just need a good method and I'll be more than straight.

Would you mind sharing your methodology and how you get your 2s and 4s and even your bass kicks (if you add them) to match up with your sample(s)?
Appreciate the listen, man! My method (which may not work for you) usually starts off with me listen to a part I like, cutting out the parts I want, and then triggering them in the pattern I want. Sometimes if a sample isn't close enough to the grid for me to "make it work" I time stretch it. I use FL Studio alot of my production (especially sample-based stuff) but in Pro Tools it is best to just be sure to chop at the transients (tab to transients should be activated) in the sample and the erase what isn't needed. You can use Structure Free if you want to trigger chops if you have a MIDI keyboard or don't mind doing triggers in the piano roll. Honestly beyond that it is all up to your personal tastes.

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28th December 2011
Old 28th December 2011
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Originally Posted by Eternal_One View Post
Quick question regarding sampling...
1. after you cut your 4 bars click on it.

2. command/control + I and put in 1|1 - 5|1. you will now get exact tempo of sample

3. turn on elastic audio (make sure u r in ticks)- polyphonic

4. change tempo to whole number. ie: if its 88.782 change to 89. Or go bigger with tempo jump or drop.

5. Now open quantize window and quantize sample if needed. you may have to play with it. you can start with 1/2, 1/4, or go to 1/16. Sometimes you can quantize different sections of the 4 bars with different notes to make it fit. OR you can go to waveform view and slide the elastic markers

6. Play it with the click looped up for 4bars. If it's on beat and you ready to go change polyphonic to x-form. Very important last step. It's offline but no artifacts.

You good to go and on beat. Process sounds long but it's really quick besides the x-form portion.

Talked about a part of the process in this thread Best Software For Slowing Tempo & Keeping Pitch??
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29th December 2011
Old 29th December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PopularDemand View Post
1. after you cut your 4 bars click on it.

2. command/control + I and put in 1|1 - 5|1. you will now get exact tempo of sample

3. turn on elastic audio (make sure u r in ticks)- polyphonic

4. change tempo to whole number. ie: if its 88.782 change to 89. Or go bigger with tempo jump or drop.

5. Now open quantize window and quantize sample if needed. you may have to play with it. you can start with 1/2, 1/4, or go to 1/16. Sometimes you can quantize different sections of the 4 bars with different notes to make it fit. OR you can go to waveform view and slide the elastic markers

6. Play it with the click looped up for 4bars. If it's on beat and you ready to go change polyphonic to x-form. Very important last step. It's offline but no artifacts.

You good to go and on beat. Process sounds long but it's really quick besides the x-form portion.

Talked about a part of the process in this thread Best Software For Slowing Tempo & Keeping Pitch??
Just tried it...that was awesome
Eternal_One
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29th December 2011
Old 29th December 2011
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Originally Posted by PopularDemand View Post
2. command/control + I and put in 1|1 - 5|1. you will now get exact tempo of sample

5. Now open quantize window and quantize sample if needed. you may have to play with it. you can start with 1/2, 1/4, or go to 1/16. Sometimes you can quantize different sections of the 4 bars with different notes to make it fit. OR you can go to waveform view and slide the elastic markers

6. Play it with the click looped up for 4bars. If it's on beat and you ready to go change polyphonic to x-form. Very important last step. It's offline but no artifacts.
Thank you man, few questions as I am trying your method right now.

When I do step number 2, in my case, I just found a 2 bar loop, so I did command + I and input 1 | 1 | 00 and I had it end on 3 | 1 | 00. This found the tempo of my sample instantly, but the sample didn't snap to the grid as I expected it would. The sample extended a little bit past 3 | 1 | 00 on the grid in Pro Tools. Why is this?

Also, for step number 5, I couldn't find the quantize window initially then I realized it was under Event Properties... but, my question here is, what exactly is this step doing? Whether I select 1/2, 1/4, or 1/16, I saw it would shift the sample slightly but I'm confused as to what this was doing and how do I know which to select? I purposely chose a sample that was simply a guitar riff so I couldn't really hear an audible change when I was hitting apply in the quantize window plus, like I said, I didn't know if I should do 1/2, 1/4, 1/16. And did you mean "warp" instead of "waveform" view as an alternative to this quantize method? I'm confused all together on the objective of this step, could you clarify? Is this so my 2s and 4s will hit in accordance with the sample when I am using Reason via an Aux track? The whole quantize thing is confusing me.

And lastly, for step number 6, I see x-form, but what do you mean by "offline" (is this an option that needs to be selected or are you referring to processing or something)? I noticed also there was rendered processing and real-time right beneath x-form which one needs to be selected? Do either of these matter?

Like I noted, I use Reason an Aux track and once I opened it after trying some of these steps out, the loop in Reason was not looping from 1 | 1 | 00 to 3 | 1 | 00, it was like 1 | 1 | 00 to about... 2 | 4 | 555 or something...

Should I use Beat Detective instead to snap a loop to the grid (as opposed to the command + I method)? I'm real lost :(... I guess I have some experimenting to do but if this could be cleared up that'd be awesome... I want to be on my way with sampling.
MediaMix
#8
29th December 2011
Old 29th December 2011
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MediaMix
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I'm not Popular but maybe i can help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal_One View Post
When I do step number 2, in my case, I just found a 2 bar loop, so I did command + I and input 1 | 1 | 00 and I had it end on 3 | 1 | 00. This found the tempo of my sample instantly, but the sample didn't snap to the grid as I expected it would. The sample extended a little bit past 3 | 1 | 00 on the grid in Pro Tools. Why is this?
It is just giving you the exact tempo of your 2 bar sample as currently constituted before you fix it. If you move sample to bar 1 it will snap to that offbeat tempo. Once you know the exact tempo of your offbeat sample you can work.

Quote:
Also, for step number 5, I couldn't find the quantize window initially then I realized it was under Event Properties... but, my question here is, what exactly is this step doing? Whether I select 1/2, 1/4, or 1/16, I saw it would shift the sample slightly but I'm confused as to what this was doing and how do I know which to select?
Quantize does what it always does. It moves the drums hits to an exact position on the grid. 16 is tight, 1/4 is a little looser. It will put kicks/snares exactly on beat giving you the perfect loop. Some loops may be on beat already so you hear no difference. Guitars and strings are tricky to quantize. warp (not waveform) sometimes works better.

X-Form rendered once you are done. There are many videos on youtube showing this process in pro tools.
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29th December 2011
Old 29th December 2011
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Originally Posted by MediaMix View Post
It is just giving you the exact tempo of your 2 bar sample as currently constituted before you fix it. If you move sample to bar 1 it will snap to that offbeat tempo. Once you know the exact tempo of your offbeat sample you can work.


Quantize does what it always does. It moves the drums hits to an exact position on the grid. 16 is tight, 1/4 is a little looser. It will put kicks/snares exactly on beat giving you the perfect loop. Some loops may be on beat already so you hear no difference. Guitars and strings are tricky to quantize. warp (not waveform) sometimes works better. [/B]
Hey man, thanks for response, appreciate it.

- I initially do move the 2 bar loop to the beginning of the Pro Tools session. Command + I gives me the exact tempo, as you noted. So considering I said it didn't snap exactly to 3 | 1 | 00, it went a little bit past bar 3, are you saying that this is the loop snapping to an offbeat tempo? When I do command + I, am I finding the tempo to my offbeat sample? Kinda confused and this is because I'm familiar with Beat Detective snapping my 2 bar loop perfectly from 1 | 1 | 00 to 3 | 1 | 00, could you clarify? I'm lost as to why it's going past 3 | 1 | 00 after command + I and if this matters at all...

- And with the quantize, so you're saying if I find a loop that has some drums in it already, say it's 2 bars, I use the command + I method, and then realize the drums, let's say snares OR claps, aren't hitting on the click or I can see/hear they are a little bit further than 1 | 2 |00, 1 | 4 | 00, etc., using the quantize window, selecting the sample and quantizing anywhere from 1/2, 1/4/, 1/16 that the sample snares or claps will automatically be shifted to the 1 | 2 | 00 and 1 | 4 | 00 or they will just be put on beat? What's the difference, am I confusing myself? Just trying to understand so my snares/claps from Reason can hit perfectly with the sample in Pro Tools once quantized (if need be).

- Quickly, if I have a 2 bar sample of a guitar or strings, you're saying it's better to warp waveform so I can drag the transients to say the 1 | 2 | 00 and the 1 | 4 | 00 so my drums will be in time with the guitar or strings?

- Lastly, lol... ... Why after doing all these methods, the command + I, ticks + polyphonic, ensued by x-form... I opened up Reason as an Aux track in Pro Tools and the loop wasn't perfect in Reason? Considering Reason goes into slave mode based off of Pro Tools, like I noted, my loop was a little bit past 3 | 1 | 00 in Pro Tools (this was after I found tempo via command + I) but in Reason, the loop was from 1 | 1 | 00 to about 2 | 4 | 875 or something random like that, it didn't snap to 3 | 1 | 00.

Thanks for any input! Just trying to nail this method.
MediaMix
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29th December 2011
Old 29th December 2011
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make sure your grid is set to beats (bars) and snap at 1 bar and you have the loop all the way to the left at zero.

popular's instructions are pretty straight forward. i would suggest you search youtube videos so you can get a visual walk through.
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29th December 2011
Old 29th December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaMix View Post
make sure your grid is set to beats (bars) and snap at 1 bar and you have the loop all the way to the left at zero.

popular's instructions are pretty straight forward. i would suggest you search youtube videos so you can get a visual walk through.
Alright will do... my grid is set to beats. I'm not necessarily a beginner but these issues I'm having... I just can't seem to figure out the solution yet. Once I do, I'll be golden.

Just really lost on why the the sample isn't snapping perfectly in Pro Tools and/or Reason.
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7th January 2012
Old 7th January 2012
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Any other suggestions?

I have had some samples I've liked, thrown into Pro Tools and luckily their 2 and 4 hits are fairly close to the grid. So, moving the transients isn't necessarily a problem because it doesn't alter the whole sample.

Others are a disaster...
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