vocal doubles- how many is enough?

[peeweedrummer]

on an pop/r&b song i tracked tonight I was asked to layer between 8-10 track of lead vox! all the same exact part.

and there are many lines overlapping, so there would be like 30-40 vocal tracks playing at once.
when i listened to the rough demo I could not hear that many layers.

Is this normal? if so how are they treated? vocalign, melodyne? are they all at the same level in the mix?

the most ive ever done is 1 solid main and 2 others that are panned l and r. then 2 more that are tracked off mic to pick up more room ambiance.

I have another sessin booked next week and would love to get some tips!

Cheers Steve

[CJ Mastering]

Is this normal? if so how are they treated? vocalign, melodyne? are they all at the same level in the mix?

Its normal if that's what it takes to get the sound the producer and band wants. You can treat the vocals any way you want and with what ever tools are needed. if melodyne is needed, then you should use melodyne. If a delay is needed, the use that also. Every situation will need different things.

There is no normal and abnormal when it comes to tracking and mixing, just as long as what you do, achieves the sound you want

[A Fak]

Originally Posted by CJ Mastering

Its normal if that's what it takes to get the sound the producer and band wants.

Agreed with the above statement but here are some tips that might help. To get the sound you're probably looking for you definitely need the doubles to be pretty close to the original. If its a little all over the place vocalign will help tighten things up. Lately I like to compress a little on every track then bus all the doubles and compress them together. This gives them a very cohesive sound.

[ncoak]

for doubles i'd say 2 maximum, any more than that and you risk them becoming triples.

[Bender412]

Happy 1000

[chris carter]

For pop and r&b hooks it's pretty common to double the lead numerous times. 3 leads is "usually" minimum. 4 or 5 is pretty typical. I think 7 is probably the most I've done. Then add all the octaves and harmonies (2 or 4 of each). Yes, you wind up with a lot of tracks in the hook. Add bridges, and all kinds of other stuff. It's not uncommon for pop and r&b songs to have 100+ tracks of vocals. This usually scares the pants off rap guys who rely on their fingers and toes to count the number of tracks - which has its limitations obviously LOL.

[FLR Studios]

Even with rap I usually have 4-6 of each vocal (as long as its an important vocal). I turn down most of them a pretty good amount, so it doesn't "sound" like 6 vocal tracks, just sounds like a very full vocal. That plus some compression/EQ and I get um shinin.

[sftd]

30-60

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[daez]

I have been trying to get away from to many dub's. Makes the whole song sound like a chorus. Not uncommon though.I mostly group these to a bus and comp there but I also track through a comp.

[Solar]

@Steve

Hey mate, I PM'ed you and as you can see all the great answers here too. It really indeed depends on each production if needed doubling or quadrupling etc... etc..

And as @CJ Mastering, no normal or abnormal in music - No rules, what become a rule is when you apply something in your workflow and it works for you then you make that a Rule. Other then that, Feel your music, your production, your mix and magic will happen

Peace!!!

[shockermatt]

Originally Posted by daez

I have been trying to get away from to many dub's. Makes the whole song sound like a chorus.

A lot of times I will keep the lead down to 3-5 tracks during the verse, with the other voc tracks really low. then bring the volumes of the 'other' voc tracks up during the chorus. seems to help the 'whole song sounds like a chorus' effect of stacking.

[6th_World]

Currently I'm mixing rnb track and I ended with about 100 vocals tracks, even more I'm sure, didn't count it I got lead vocals, somewhere is one vocal track, somewhere there are doubles, triples.. Then adlibs, backing vocals in particular places (from 4 to 7-8-9 at some spots) on bridges, hooks, chours.. To manage it use groups. Then groups in groups, etc...

It's nothing unusual...

[peeweedrummer]

Originally Posted by Solar

@Steve

Hey mate, I PM'ed you and as you can see all the great answers here too. It really indeed depends on each production if needed doubling or quadrupling etc... etc..

And as @CJ Mastering, no normal or abnormal in music - No rules, what become a rule is when you apply something in your workflow and it works for you then you make that a Rule. Other then that, Feel your music, your production, your mix and magic will happen

Peace!!!

I usually double or triple the lead vox in a chorus but im not producing this track only engineering it. the producer is in america and im in australia.

they have sent over instructions on where to do more layers and its basically the whole song! then they want things like bv's done 8 times (which is acceptable) but when a harmony comes in they want another 8 of the harmony.

so 16 bv's 10 lead takes and in a few parts of the song there are counter melody's so another 8 or 10. thats 36 vocals all at once! this is all by the same singer!


I would love to hear a modern pop song where there is a lead vocal in a verse with 10 layers on it (not bv's) and still sound like a lead vocal and not a group of singers. can someone show me one?


ps. Hey Solar, thanks for the pm.

[drethe5th]

@chris carter. I agree, Rappers don't often see high counts above maybe 8 total. My last time studio session with a singer was 17 tracks, for a chorus on one of my tracks. Multiple harmonies, plus adlibs and the funny thing is he had more ideas written that we didn't cover, so the track count could have gone higher. Talented and professional singer I look foward to working with him again.


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[Solar]

Originally Posted by peeweedrummer

I usually double or triple the lead vox in a chorus but im not producing this track only engineering it. the producer is in america and im in australia.

they have sent over instructions on where to do more layers and its basically the whole song! then they want things like bv's done 8 times (which is acceptable) but when a harmony comes in they want another 8 of the harmony.

so 16 bv's 10 lead takes and in a few parts of the song there are counter melody's so another 8 or 10. thats 36 vocals all at once! this is all by the same singer!


I would love to hear a modern pop song where there is a lead vocal in a verse with 10 layers on it (not bv's) and still sound like a lead vocal and not a group of singers. can someone show me one?


ps. Hey Solar, thanks for the pm.

You're more then welcome mate.

And i totally understand the concept and the idea of your client and what they are looking for. And indeed it is possible to have A LEAD vocal being layered many times. Exactly what I explained to you, thats where Volume & Eq comes into place. Having all those vocals (as someone already mentioned here above) layered to the Main Lead vocal and to still sound and fell like 1 Lead is possible by using Volume, Eq, Pan and even maybe use some "parallel compression" tech. But again, the layered tracks need to be daaaaaamn tight or well comp.

It's a little tedious job but it's done a lot in many major Pop Songs you hear out there (not all them but quite)

But yes it is doable

NB. Most of the time (does not mean can not be done during verses) you hear this done during Chorus sections of a song & or Bridges as well. Again depends on the type of the song & production. Maybe hearing a snippet of the song u're working would help but i'm sure you can not (for property rights) and it's normal

[sftd]

As a clear and present example of why a small number of vocal tracks suck I present thee with this:

http://db.tt/QAoFabtk

This is a little Reason 6 demo I made for the synth subforum at a friend's family members house a week ago. There was no gear present save for my laptop, portable interface, and an absolute junk 49 key MIDI controller. We used a home stereo/ATH M50 headphones for monitoring! The gentleman providing vocals is probably fairly well known to most of you guys in the hip-hop world, but you're probably used to hearing him in conditions other than these.

This is a single vocal track, recorded through a Shure Beta58 directly into an RME Babyface. The harmonies on the vocal are not other vocal tracks, they are simply played on to the single vocal via Reasons Neptune pitch/vocal synth.

It would do you well to ignore the mix of the track as a whole because from it was written/made from the first note to the final render in just under three hours, and beyond that we had all had a bit to drink.

Anyhow, back to the point, this will clearly illustrate how a single track of vocals reacts poorly to a mix, especially if that mix is dominated by harmonically rich sounds elsewhere. Despite my best efforts otherwise (irregardless of the time spent) the recording chain and lack of dubs relegates it to being muddy, buried, unpresent, etc.

Had we recorded even 4 more dubs it would have sounded wholly different and much better!

Dubs are soooooo important to the modern vocal sound!!

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[morejaylesswar]

I don't know how to double vocals, nor do I know how to mix them... I want my music to feel conversational. My thought process used to be: "I can't dub my voice when I'm just regularly speaking, so why should I in my music?" Now people are telling me that some of my favorite rappers actually dub their vocals.... It just doesn't sound like they do.

How do they pull that off?

I mean, even these don't sound dubbed to me.

"Return of Simba" - J. Cole


"High Power" - Kendrick Lamar

[Itsgrandzbaby]

I usually try to stay away from Too many dubs. It's the crutch that artists use when they lack talent or if their engineer can't get a "thick sound" with minimum vocal takes.

[Solar]

Originally Posted by Itsgrandzbaby

I usually try to stay away from Too many dubs. It's the crutch that artists use when they lack talent or if their engineer can't get a "thick sound" with minimum vocal takes.

I must disagree with the second part of your assumption about "if their engineer can't get a "thick sound" with minimum vocal takes". Are you serious about this? So you're trying to tell me that Engineers starting by Pro ones that we find in this great forum (and htat have shared their amazing workflow tips covering this subject as well) starting by Mr Ken Lewis, D Pensado etc.. etc.. etc.. so you are telling us "They don't know how to get a thick sound with minimal vocal takes"?

Mhmhmhmmhm I think you should revisit things up mate.

It's mostly depending on each production as each vocal production in a song has different approach, thats the main basic reason. Doesn't mean you can not get thicker soudn with minimal sound but there is a purpose behind every step an engineer takes to achieve something in a MIX.

[Itsgrandzbaby]

Originally Posted by Solar

I must disagree with the second part of your assumption about "if their engineer can't get a "thick sound" with minimum vocal takes". Are you serious about this? So you're trying to tell me that Engineers starting by Pro ones that we find in this great forum (and htat have shared their amazing workflow tips covering this subject as well) starting by Mr Ken Lewis, D Pensado etc.. etc.. etc.. so you are telling us "They don't know how to get a thick sound with minimal vocal takes"?

Mhmhmhmmhm I think you should revisit things up mate.

It's mostly depending on each production as each vocal production in a song has different approach, thats the main basic reason. Doesn't mean you can not get thicker soudn with minimal sound but there is a purpose behind every step an engineer takes to achieve something in a MIX.

notice I said too many!!

[ncoak]

Originally Posted by sftd

The gentleman providing vocals is probably fairly well known to most of you guys in the hip-hop world, but you're probably used to hearing him in conditions other than these.
\

yeah that robot guy is everywhere these days

[Amaan]

Originally Posted by morejaylesswar

I don't know how to double vocals, nor do I know how to mix them... I want my music to feel conversational. My thought process used to be: "I can't dub my voice when I'm just regularly speaking, so why should I in my music?" Now people are telling me that some of my favorite rappers actually dub their vocals.... It just doesn't sound like they do.

How do they pull that off?

I mean, even these don't sound dubbed to me.

"Return of Simba" - J. Cole


"High Power" - Kendrick Lamar

How do you know they are dubbing their verses?

I don't think they are, but would love to know if the secret to a full vocal sound, like Kendrick Lamar's Hii Power, is to dubb the lead and somehow make it unnoticeable. Perhaps, I've been doing this wrong the whole time.

[swaff]

Originally Posted by morejaylesswar

I don't know how to double vocals, nor do I know how to mix them... I want my music to feel conversational. My thought process used to be: "I can't dub my voice when I'm just regularly speaking, so why should I in my music?" Now people are telling me that some of my favorite rappers actually dub their vocals.... It just doesn't sound like they do.

How do they pull that off?

I mean, even these don't sound dubbed to me.

"Return of Simba" - J. Cole


"High Power" - Kendrick Lamar

These vocals don't sound doubled to me either. It sounds like they are probably just heavily compressed so that each word is loud and clear and there's probably some some limiting, post compression, too. They do sound like they are recorded very well also, with a good mic and pre I am sure.

Now, if you listen to something like Eminem, that is overdubbed several times, lots of times all the way through the song. I think if you check out some of his songs versus these you posted as examples, you'll instantly hear the difference.

These guys are super-talented, but I just don't get them calling everyone the N word and that being cool. It's very ironic this day in time, is it not? In that "Hi Power" song, he is talking all about all the racism issues, yet calling out N here and there. I'm not even a black person, and it's offensive to me. To each his own, though. I admire the ability and talent. Very well-done tracks and performances.

Swaff

[THC480]

I had a def jam artist I was working with send me all his mixes with lead vocal dubs... I never told him but I deleted every second track of leads he sent, never once used them.. got a nice thick sound with chorusing effects and compression and that was that.. people believe more is better but 9 vocal dubs is ****ing ridiculous, don't be afraid to tell them..Also, don't start the mix using all the dubs.. start with minimal vocals and if NEED be, add them in.. but I would probably take a loss and tell him he was talentless with 9 vocal takes.. thats just me..

[Starshine]

Every song is different and I don't think there are rules about how many vocal tracks you should have in a song.
But usually I'll have 5 tracks of vocals in the chorus and only 1 track in the verse without the adlibs (could be just 1 track up to 20 tracks if needed).
I'm not a fan of overdoing stuff so I prefer quality vocals over quantity.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by Itsgrandzbaby

I usually try to stay away from Too many dubs. It's the crutch that artists use when they lack talent or if their engineer can't get a "thick sound" with minimum vocal takes.

On the flip side of that, with tightly vocaligned and melodyne pop hooks I really appreciate having a lot of layers. For two reasons.

1. When the same vocalist on the same mic in the same space is melodyned and vocaligned, the takes sound VERY similar. It's hard to get a wide stereo spread with only a couple of doubles. Forces other things to happen, like sending the vocals to separate mono delays/reverbs, summing and stereo widening the ambience.

2. As thick as I can get the vocals with only a couple of layers, it again requires processing to make up for a lack of what is easily accomplished with layers of vocals.


I'd say six is a good number of layers for a unison part - 2 center, 2 left, 2 right. At least that's how I prefer it.

[miscend]

Doubling vocals is out dated. It's like auto tune. All it does is smear the vocals.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by miscend

Doubling vocals is out dated. It's like auto tune. All it does is smear the vocals.

Really? I think you're mistaken.

[drethe5th]

Every session, song, and most importantly every singer is different.

If they've got a strong voice and the instrument arrangment allows them to sit in the track well, then you use less tracks for a lead. For leads I never go over 4.

On Chorus it goes as far as you need it to.



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[3rd Degree]

I am by no means an expert on this when it comes to RnB/Pop stuff. I have worked with enough people to share my experiences though. I have yet to do something with under 5 tracks total. I often will get up to about 15 with just a hook for a rap song. We are talking about singing, not rapping, obviously.

To me, the "Lead" is not really the lead track. Sure, you often have a "lead" track but I consider it more as a group of tracks. So the "lead" part alone will be 3-5 tracks minimum, most of the the time.

Then you have your doubles, again, I tend to look at that as a group of tracks.

Then you have your harmony, you will likely stack this around the same amount of tracks as in your lead, more or less. You also may have it setup like a lead and double situation.

To add to that, you may have tracks where the singer really ups the vibrato or other techniques, some tracks that are really simple and add to clarity of the words.


It's really not hard to get a really high track count if you are doing it in this fashion.