MPC 60 vs MPC 2500 (sound clips inside)

[Dor]

What's up? I decided to compare the sound and feel of the mpc 60 vs the mpc 2500 to see if the legendary "feel" of the roger linn design is fact or fiction. There's been a ton of talk to the effect that the 60 and the 3000 have more feel and soul than the newer models that were made after Roger Linn's relationship with Akai disolved.

Ok, so here are the .wav files for you to check out & guess which is the 60 and which is the 2500. I recorded 3 tracks of drum sounds set at full level , 16th note quantize with 62% swing in a basic pattern. I also put each file through a waves SSL masterbus comp preset to get the levels matched up.

http://www.boomspot.com/mpc60vs2500/Drums_1_Test_2.wav
http://www.boomspot.com/mpc60vs2500/Drums_2_Test_2.wav

Which one has the legendary swing and feel?

D

[rjx]

This was easy. #1 is the 60.

[lpuma]

1 is more dirty, I like the kik i think it's the 60
2 is clean i like the hh it's the 2500

the swing? same thing for me.

the 2500 sound nice (the 60 too but i knew)

[d.dot]

Never spent quality time with a 60, but I prefered the sound of #1. Felt more in your face. I kept a/b ing the two and for some reason the kick drums sounded like they were slightly diferent pitch wise. Also #2 had some digital distortion around :22. Clocking error?

[Dor]

Originally Posted by d.dot

Never spent quality time with a 60, but I prefered the sound of #1. Felt more in your face. I kept a/b ing the two and for some reason the kick drums sounded like they were slightly diferent pitch wise. Also #2 had some digital distortion around :22. Clocking error?

Yeah, I just listened and heard that click noise you are referring to. I'll have to check the settings on the rosetta. I tracked both of these directly into the motu 828mkII analog ins. I loaded the samples into the 2500 via compact flash. The sounds were then triggered from the 2500 into the 60 which seems to be finicky as far as levels and noise.

The 60 seems to add a bit of bump to the kick drum when you slam the a/d but i'm not sure you couldn't achieve similiar results with eq. The drums in the 2500 were flat.


D

[rjx]

Thats why I said #1 was the 60. It has that low fi grime of 12 bit. Because it 12 bit.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by rjx

Thats why I said #1 was the 60. It has that low fi grime of 12 bit. Because it 12 bit.

yep.

[Kesadiq]

I know this has been said already, but you can not compare those two machines, because one is 12bit.

Let me add, I have used all the Akai machines (except the 4000) since 1990, and the MPC 3000 is
bar far my favorite, with the new 2500 being my second favorite. I will say, I still used the 3000 to
sequence the 2500, because I don't like the timing on the 2500. I love the sound of it though.

I also loved my MPC 60, and would love to get another one some day. I would even use that sequencer
over the 2500, because it's the same as the 3000.

[WideawakE]

wouldn't a better test be to sample straight into the 2500 from your source (computer?)

and then sample straight into the 60 straight from the source as well?

that makes more sense to me, but I like the first one better too...which is why I have a 60, still looking for a sp1200 though

Give me a min with the files and I can probably definately tell you. I never touched a 2500 but I used a 60II (which is for all intent and purpose the same as the 60 soundwise) for YEARS. I'll be back in a min

Awww dayum I didnt know the answers were out. Akai's 60s used to put this strange "whistle" like noize on kicks and low end sounds. I was gonna go look for that sound.


Well I dont feel so bad the answers were out most here can tell 12bit from 24 bit.

Send me the wave files individually and I'll see how it "swings' in the 4k (it will be about the same honestly)

Also hitting the converters in the MPC 60 for saturation is almost like cheating in this test. You will make the drums sound like completely different kits.;"


I think both flavors have something to offer. WHICH is why I went with a MPC 4k.. You can use whatever you like to color the sound (mpc 60) and record that sound into ptools, separate, and then drop the separated wav's in your 4k.

GET WHATEVER SOUND U WANT

Honestly if you sample from the 60 to the 2.5k u should get most of that sound retained if that's what u like. Just use the 60 as a filter. Leave it in record mode and send the outputs to the 2500 to sample

[ILL]

I like the 2500 a lot more.

[rjx]

Originally Posted by WideawakE

still looking for a sp1200 though

If you want the sound of the 1200 on the cheap, look into the emax rack or keyboard. The keyboard can be had for as little as $150. Beautiful sound.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Kesadiq

I know this has been said already, but you can not compare those two machines, because one is 12bit.

Let me add, I have used all the Akai machines (except the 4000) since 1990, and the MPC 3000 is
bar far my favorite, with the new 2500 being my second favorite. I will say, I still used the 3000 to
sequence the 2500, because I don't like the timing on the 2500. I love the sound of it though.

I also loved my MPC 60, and would love to get another one some day. I would even use that sequencer
over the 2500, because it's the same as the 3000.

The purpose of this posting was to compare the swing of the machines, not the sound quality. Which file swings better?

[tone4407]

The swing sounds the same to me.

[Jizz]

The swung kick on the 60 sounds a bees dick later.
Sounds a little more staccato as well.

[C Heat]

the 2500 is swinging more

the 60 swing is better

[sasha222]

it could just be me but the 60 sounds looser in a good way.

u should do the same comparison with both machines double tempo, same speed beat. imo that will reveal more..

[Kesadiq]

Dor - I got cha...

[Zacchino]

Guys, I've read a lot of this word on the MPC forums, and in this Gearslut Hip Hop forum, but never quite understood what you guys meant :

What do you guys mean by Timing ?

I've never touched an MPC, I've always sequenced my drums on ACID, which is the easiest, fastest, best way (for me) to put down some drums ... e.g. this one made in a bit less than an hour and a half (incl. eqing).

If you hear carefully to the Hit Hit, it's times to times very little out of sync, but I had to make this by hand... So do you mean "Timing" is a function capable to "humanise" your sequence automaticaly?

[MarkusColeman]

Originally Posted by Dor

The purpose of this posting was to compare the swing of the machines, not the sound quality. Which file swings better?

#1 lo-fi, 12 bit, hh´s lows slightly on the right, but static, almost static swing
hh "ahead" of the kick/clap/sd - MPC 60

#2 hi-fi, 16 bit (?), hh´s lows slightly going to the left, other sample-rate (out of sync?), swing floating over the time (the hh sounds more like two instances of the same hh, layered, swinging differently), the hh "after" the kick/clap/sd - MPC 2500

was the ppq set to the same value? (if YES, then the MPC2500 has some serious timing issues) was it a midi-loop or a continuos, 1 min midi-track?

due to the sync-issues, the test was not exactly fair.

edit: the difference in the sample rate leads to.......a slightly different pitch of ALL the drum samples. also check the length of the release on the sd/clap and hh.....both notes seem to be slightly longer in the 2500´s midi file.

[rjx]

IMO the test would be more fair to make the loop in the 60 first and make the sound clip. Then play the sequence from the 60 into the 2500 and chop it up, re-sequence and then make another sound example. That way both sound examples would sound 12 bit and you could focus more on the "feel".

But when I heard the first example, i knew instantly.

[rjx]

Originally Posted by Zacchino

What do you guys mean by Timing ?

The quality of the quantization and swing. Dor was comparing to see which machine sounded tighter.

[xabiton]

ive never used either mpc but i can tell u #1 is the mpc60 and the 2nd clip is the 2500.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by MarkusColeman

#2 hi-fi, 16 bit (?), hh´s lows slightly going to the left, other sample-rate (out of sync?), swing floating over the time (the hh sounds more like two instances of the same hh, layered, swinging differently), the hh "after" the kick/clap/sd - MPC 2500.

You are hearing a stereo samples on #2. #1 is mono. I was running analog into my motu 828mkII with external sync set to my rosetta 200 44.1k/16. I did hear the spikes in the 2nd file.

Originally Posted by MarkusColeman

was the ppq set to the same value? (if YES, then the MPC2500 has some serious timing issues) was it a midi-loop or a continuos, 1 min midi-track?

due to the sync-issues, the test was not exactly fair.

You are hearing the internal timing of both machines at 96ppq. if there's a clocking issue they were both effected.

Originally Posted by MarkusColeman

edit: the difference in the sample rate leads to.......a slightly different pitch of ALL the drum samples. also check the length of the release on the sd/clap and hh.....both notes seem to be slightly longer in the 2500´s midi file.

Good ear :) I set the decay very tight on the 60 since the tails were very noisey due to the 12 bit and the noise floor on this particular unit.

I don't agree that the 60's a/d pitches the sound when converting to 12/40 from 16/44.1 but i could be wrong. Has this been documented?


D

Originally Posted by Dor

You are hearing a stereo samples on #2. #1 is mono. I was running analog into my motu 828mkII with external sync set to my rosetta 200 44.1k/16. I did hear the spikes in the 2nd file.



You are hearing the internal timing of both machines at 96ppq. if there's a clocking issue they were both effected.



Good ear :) I set the decay very tight on the 60 since the tails were very noisey due to the 12 bit and the noise floor on this particular unit.

I don't agree that the 60's a/d pitches the sound when converting to 12/40 from 16/44.1 but i could be wrong. Has this been documented?


D

Dor, It's pretty hard to determine which "feels" better according to swing with all of these other variables contributing to differences. We would only be inclined to pick the one that feels best overall but decay and gate time has a HUGE effect on feel, so does mono vs stereo. You gotta give us more to go off. Plus as I said before if you post the samples I'll put them in the 4k and post the same beat.

THis way you can line up the hits in ptools (or your DAW of choice) and see exactly what the swing is

[illbeats]

GREAT POST,Dam I want a mpc2500

[Dor]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

Dor, It's pretty hard to determine which "feels" better according to swing with all of these other variables contributing to differences. We would only be inclined to pick the one that feels best overall but decay and gate time has a HUGE effect on feel, so does mono vs stereo. You gotta give us more to go off. Plus as I said before if you post the samples I'll put them in the 4k and post the same beat.

THis way you can line up the hits in ptools (or your DAW of choice) and see exactly what the swing is

I'll run another test as soon as i get a chance and hit you with the samples to run the same beat in your 4k. I can line up the tracks in DP and post screenshots of the waveforms so we can see the swing.

probably will get around to it tomorrow night ... stay tuned.

D

[Dor]

I used some stock sounds from my fantom-s triggered via midi. I threw both in dp and they line up practically perfect. Not sure if i'm flipping the phase right but i didn't hear total cancellation. I do hear the phase you usually hear when you play two of the same records tho.


http://www.boomspot.com/mpc60vs2500/...t_3_File_1.wav
http://www.boomspot.com/mpc60vs2500/...t_3_File_2.wav
http://www.boomspot.com/mpc60vs2500/Drum_Phase.wav

Originally Posted by Dor

I used some stock sounds from my fantom-s triggered via midi. I threw both in dp and they line up practically perfect. Not sure if i'm flipping the phase right but i didn't hear total cancellation. I do hear the phase you usually hear when you play two of the same records tho.


http://www.boomspot.com/mpc60vs2500/...t_3_File_1.wav
http://www.boomspot.com/mpc60vs2500/...t_3_File_2.wav
http://www.boomspot.com/mpc60vs2500/Drum_Phase.wav

You're still not testing what you want tested though.
1. Sample some mono sounds in your 60
2. Sample the same sounds from the 60 into your 2.5 (this way they hav the same 12bit type sound)

Record with the exact same quantization/swing settings a sequence in each

Then compare.

What you are comparing now is how well they each sequence and trigger midi info, not the internal samplers, which is what it sounds like you want to know about

Or if you really want to compare quantize. use something like a closed hat with short lenth and record holding down the note repeat.
Place a hat on EVERY tick of the quantize/swing setting

Record one from each machine and once you compare in your daw you will know if there are any differences.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

You're still not testing what you want tested though.

I wanted to test the timing & swing of the two machines playing a sequence. I think i've accomplished that. Sampling into the 60 and then the 2500 isn't too effectve because then everyone is concentrating on which sample sounds better and not the feel of the groove.

I would think that the timing is going to be the same whether i'm triggering a module or triggering samples. Do you agree?

D