how do i get punchy kicks

[affinitysound]

i keep listenin to all these jay dilla tracks and he has the punchiest kick ive ever heard on any song. its do deep and bassy its crazy. everytime i try to bass up my kicks in pro tools they always just start cracklin and soundin like crap.how do i get my kicks extremely punchy and in your chest. i want em to really blow the shit out of my speakers.help me out.

[bigwillz24]

Originally Posted by affinitysound

i keep listenin to all these jay dilla tracks and he has the punchiest kick ive ever heard on any song. its do deep and bassy its crazy. everytime i try to bass up my kicks in pro tools they always just start cracklin and soundin like crap.how do i get my kicks extremely punchy and in your chest. i want em to really blow the shit out of my speakers.help me out.

Learn how to use a compressor...

[msolay]

i think it is a bit more complicated than that

[Maddstone]

Ideal guy to break down the kick aspect for you is Sirocco.Send him a PM.Sirocco kicks gonna shake up the industry soon.

As for Dilla, I think it has a lot to do with compression, but even more so with EQ.The way he uses the EQ and filters........think that could be the key to that sound he was able to bring about.I do agree with u, he had some of the best kicks around.I just love listening to his track.The bass and all of that.Another producer who's got mean kicks is Hi-Tek.When he wants to, he can really make them knock.

I also luv a producer by the name of Nyambz.The way he puts together his kicks and bass.........he's moving right up there to the Hi-Tek's and the Dilla's.Young dude, but u'd think him an old vet the way he commands those tracks.

[dshay]

start out with a really good condensor microphone that can capture the nuances and transients of a membrane (kick drum). Something that can really hug the acoustic soundwave. This kick drum must be made of good resonant material, not warped, and tuned well. Or, even mic a band bass drum. Those big things.

Power that with a preamp that compliments that quality microphone.(neither of these are probably going to be cheap). You can do this, or sample somebody that has already done this, which is more cost effective. The important part is you have to start out with quality source material. You can't eq in stuff that ain't really there.

run that through a compressor, just barely clip the peaks and get a controlled output.

Take that to two inch tape, for just the right amount of tape saturation, or a really good analog to digital converter.

EQ/filter to taste.

If you don't have the money to do all that, take the snap of a kick sound, layer it by running a deep bass sine wave with a low pass filter beneath that, and add the sound of somebody kicking a trash can and/or a dumpster. (edit: not really jdillas sound, more like neptunes)

and if you're using the digi002, try spdif from your akai if you have that option.

[dshay]

I by the way, have the resources to do none of what I just described. My sound is garage for sure. I'd kill for sound treated walls right about now.

[illynoise]

Sample as loud as you can without killin it. Then compress with RMS Hard, not peak.

Eq with a tight q setting and boost at around 60hz and 120hz. This is the most basic thing to get rap kiks going. Cut off the bass at around 40hz and you will get a tighter kik sound. That will let the bassline join the party.

There's more, but this should get someone going.

BaseJase
Illynoise

[breakbeat-cafe]

Originally Posted by affinitysound

i keep listenin to all these jay dilla tracks and he has the punchiest kick ive ever heard on any song. its do deep and bassy its crazy. everytime i try to bass up my kicks in pro tools they always just start cracklin and soundin like crap.how do i get my kicks extremely punchy and in your chest. i want em to really blow the shit out of my speakers.help me out.

i think the way you learn about these things is by doing them bro, try a few different things, see if your feelin it. you could change the sound, maybe source some new kicks, see if you can locate where the main frequency is, if you turn up the gain on your eq quite high (turn your speakers down first) then sweep through the frequencies and you'll find the meat of the sound.

I do think it's worth remembering that when your listening to these records they have all been mastered by world class engineers, and that does give the song alot more balls it it's done right.

[rjx]

Getting big kicks is easy. Getting them to sit well in the mix is the tricky part.

If you are after big kicks, look into the Jomox drum machines. They even have a cheap $ kick module. They have the BIGGEST kicks of any drum machine.

Its not all about drum machines though, or samples off of vinyl. Yes, you want to start with great sounds, but the kicks start to take shape later with layering, synth bass, other sounds, processing, etc.

You would probably be surprised of how close your sound is to people like Jay Dee before they go through the mixing process. Lots of things happen from when you have your sounds sequenced in pro tools or the MPC to when you hear the sounds on CD.

You can get dope results ITB if you have good mixing skills, but lots of outboard with character is used on Jay Dee, Madlib, etc.

Start with tracking your sounds into the computer using good cables, good DI, AD/DA.

I am assuming that you are primarily a producer. Every dope producer is teamed up with a very good engineer.

[Methlab]

why do people say you should compress samples? that makes no sense to me. a sample has the same dynamic each time it hits. I don't really compress kicks at all.

for a huge kick like an 808, its all about layering. to make it REALLY sick, the ones that are run through tape will sound nice and warm..thats the way to do it.

take a sample that has a lot of attack..take a sample with some midrange knock, and then take a sub..put them together..adjust the attack and release until they all align into one kick. EQ each sample so it brings out it's sound..like for the attacky sample..boost that quality and cut the rest of the frequencies out. same with the other 2.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by rjx

Every dope producer is teamed up with a very good engineer.

I keep telling people that..but they don't listen.

[cynic one]

methlab i could be off base but i think the theory behind compressing drum hits is that you compress only the attack portion of the drum hit, making it louder

i compress all my drums except perhaps really boomy kicks, but you definitely need to cut/boost the right frequencies before doing so

spl transient designer on my creamware card does wonders as well

the more i mix (and i suck at mixing) i find out that clearing space around your drum hits makes them appear louder and punchier. if you have all that sonic stuff going on when your drums are hitting the impact is lessened.

[Methlab]

yeah, you can do that for sure..but people hear to compress and go and do the entire kick.they cant hear what that does to the low subs because they dont have the proper monitoring, and they end up with a bad mix.

[msolay]

Bop Powers has worked with Jay Dee and Tribe. He is a master engineer and was the originator of the low end theory. He showed them how to do those type of punchy thud bassy warm ass kicks. But he has never said how he does it publicly, or i might not just have found it. Does anybody know what he does to the kicks. Because everybody on this post has an opinion on how to do it, but there is his way which is the best way becasue that is the sound I am going after.

[con?one]

step one... start with a dope kick.

[KevWest]

tho its not technically correct the way i do it is boost the kick frequencies with eq then run that thru a compressor to balance the level so that way it doesnt clip

[Sirocco]

im @ school now but when i get home imma hit this thread up with some info @ 10:30 est

-sirocco

[Sirocco]

Originally Posted by Maddstone

Ideal guy to break down the kick aspect for you is Sirocco.Send him a PM.Sirocco kicks gonna shake up the industry soon.

As for Dilla, I think it has a lot to do with compression, but even more so with EQ.The way he uses the EQ and filters........think that could be the key to that sound he was able to bring about.I do agree with u, he had some of the best kicks around.I just love listening to his track.The bass and all of that.Another producer who's got mean kicks is Hi-Tek.When he wants to, he can really make them knock.

I also luv a producer by the name of Nyambz.The way he puts together his kicks and bass.........he's moving right up there to the Hi-Tek's and the Dilla's.Young dude, but u'd think him an old vet the way he commands those tracks.

hitek is so sick man....his live feel just brings out the velocity of hs kicks bigtme!
and thanks for the comments

[Methlab]

"punchy thud bassy warm"

all those words scream "tape" to me.

[blayz2002]

I'm ashamed to say pre his death I didn't really know who J Dilla was...but after listening to 2 HOURS of his tracks here:

http://www.hiphopmusic.com/archives/001505.html

(Dude was mad consistent)

I realise he has made some of my favourite tracks..the kicks are defo layers, eq and good analouge compression, with some type of saturation going on. You can not get your kicks this big with that thump without good compresion to control them. One other thing also is a lot of his tracks is a lot of sub bas going on.

affinitysound ...the best way to work your kicks is to experiment when your not making a track...just try the techiques mentioned untill you get a kick you just have to use.

[msolay]

i will post up a bunch of kick samples from jay dee to analyze by Sirocco if he would take the time. Other than kicks Jay Dee was a master with snares and claps and all types of percussion.

[Dopamine]

I too think it had a lot to do with Bob Power. Have you guys seen his credits: Roots, DeLa, Common, D'Angelo, India Arie + of course all the Tribe records. This guy is the SHIT!

[Sirocco]

check this thread with my reply at the bottom

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=58615

[msolay]

hey Sirocco, I have uploaded 25 Jay Dee tracks for you to look at. It is the entire Fantastic Vol. 1 album plus some other good tracks to look at. All you do is click on the link and then scroll down to the page where it say's free and click it. Wait for the download time to finish and enter the code so you can download the file. Here is the link: http://rapidshare.de/files/15209578/...cks_2.zip.html

I would like you to also take a look at his snares as well. He has the best snares of all time and i don't know how he does it man. Please use your knowledge to enlighten us. Thanks for your time.

[filterayok]

look at it this way.... with samples of any sort, some engineer took the time to teeeeeeediously eq and compress that sample to perfection---he listened to it probably a million times and decided that the final sound was the best ----- which is why 9 times out of ten, i end up hitting "bypass" after eqing and compressing for hours... i gotta say conone is right, you just gotta finda a good kik----my new thing is i wont start processing ANYTHING untill my ears decide"the attack is too low" or "it needs more bottom"-----that way you dont compress just to compress, and you don't start eqing things just to change the sound... ASSESS first, then process...jay dillas sounds work for HIS records---i'd bet the farm your (or anybodys ) tracks are COMPLETELY different, so you gotta ask, SHOULD my kik sound like jay dillas?

[C Heat]

Originally Posted by filterayok

jay dillas sounds work for HIS records---i'd bet the farm your (or anybodys ) tracks are COMPLETELY different, so you gotta ask, SHOULD my kik sound like jay dillas?

THAT is THE best thing I've read in a LONGGGGGGG time.

Word.

Thanks filterayok.

[dshay]

Originally Posted by msolay

Bop Powers has worked with Jay Dee and Tribe. He is a master engineer and was the originator of the low end theory. He showed them how to do those type of punchy thud bassy warm ass kicks. But he has never said how he does it publicly, or i might not just have found it. Does anybody know what he does to the kicks. Because everybody on this post has an opinion on how to do it, but there is his way which is the best way becasue that is the sound I am going after.

I'm thinking one or two inch tape is involved, with money preamps and compressors.

Madlib 'n J Dilla definately all about analog tape distortion/saturation.

[Arka]

Some Dilla stuff sounds pretty mediocre engineering wise (more like straight from the MPC to DAT really), like the **** the police 12", his Jaylib tracks etc... so I guess his engineers played a big part in his fat sounding major releases.

With Jaylib I guess I guess it was the only reasonable thing to do to get a homogenic sound on the album since Madlib apparently refuses to deliver his beats in any other format than a DAT 2-track straight from his little Boss sampler.

Man, have I cursed over the crappy sonics of that otherwise amazing album, sounds ok on a nice home stereo, but dropped in the club its all mud. I just don´t buy that "Its underground, its supposed to sound that way" talk... Its definitely possible to keep a gritty sound and still make the mix pound.

peace /Arka

[msolay]

but you have to understand the jay dee's kicks are usualy the basic thud bassy kicks that will work with most samples. So obviously some samples dont need that type of kicks but most of them would be perfect with that thumpy bassy kicks.

[Maddstone]

Originally Posted by Sirocco

hitek is so sick man....his live feel just brings out the velocity of hs kicks bigtme!
and thanks for the comments

Hey cuz, always a pleasure.But come now........u know its the truth.Ur the next industry shaker on the drums front son.And I dont think I'm over doing it.

I can just see it now:"Scratch Mag:So Dre, what kinda kits do u find urself using these days?
Dre: Well, as u know I used to create a new kit every time but now with the upped workload, we had to become more resourceful and save time.So we heard rumours bout the next level ish.We hit a cat named Sirocco up.Young dude just joined the camp cause we just luv his drums man.So yeah, we just do SiroccoMath kits nowadays.........."