Engineering Hip Hop, why do they sound....

[deuc647]

Why do hip hop and rap engineers push vocals so far in front of the track, when i mix vocals i like them to sit flush in the track sort of like rock or alternative tracks, any comments about this?

[themaestro]

i think its because many rappers feel like they have to battle the track rather than peacefully coexist with it....engineers, producers, and artists of other genres realize this, so they find a good balance between the music and the vox, and it ends up giving the music a more professional and polished sound. dre knows, some other guys know, but when the producer drops off the track and leaves, then its up to a dumb ass artist and a pushover engineer...and it almost always ends in disaster

[con?one]

one one hand, the vocal should shine... because without the vocal, what do you have? (i'll tell u... a beat cd)
on the other hand, the dude is right.... unfortunately, alot of producers don't get final mix... it is what it is

Actually I dont think we can make a comparison to other Genres. In rap, (depending on the type of song) It's about Edginess. IT's about the agression of the kick/snr/ and RAPPER.

Think of LL and Rock The Bells. The song was about LL's rough delivery since the Moment it started

[Big 3rd]

It's probably that way because no other genre demands so many lyrics. With that being said, having the main vocals be heard is the PRIMARY goal. In rock and alternative music, the vocals are like one of the other instruments in the mix. In rap, the main vocals are like the meat on a typical plate of food. It is the main dish that dictates what the sides should be. Rock and alternative vocals are like having all vegetables for dinner. The main idea in putting together a plate of vegetables for dinner is making sure the foods are of different color. This makes the whole plate look more appetizing.

Damn...getting hungry....let me go make a sandwich.

[The_Phoenix]

I always wondered why the hell vocals are mixed louder than the song's instrumental. Sometimes the beat can be off the chain, vocals-okay-but the truth is, the mix ruins it. It takes away the energy of the song, as a whole. Although in some cases it's a plus for the artist. It's giving you an idea of their style and sound..

Have you ever thought about it as bad mixing skills?

[Paul David]

Originally Posted by I.N.s

I always wondered why the hell vocals are mixed louder than the song's instrumental. Sometimes the beat can be off the chain, vocals-okay-but the truth is, the mix ruins it. It takes away the energy of the song, as a whole. Although in some cases it's a plus for the artist. It's giving you an idea of their style and sound..

Have you ever thought about it as bad mixing skills?

It's either bad mixing skills or bad direction from the ncukle heads at the label. For instance, I think Dave Pensado is the master of loud vocal radio mixes because you can still hear the beat on pretty much any speakers at any angle, dudes got a lot of game.

I won't mention some of my least favorite radio mixers (Masserati) because they are very well respected in the industry (Phil Tan) and it would probably cause a stupid internet debate that I'm not willing to get into. So they shall remain nameless.

Still, al of those jokers are better mixers than me so I guess I can't be too hard on em.

[nickp]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

It's probably that way because no other genre demands so many lyrics. With that being said, having the main vocals be heard is the PRIMARY goal. In rock and alternative music, the vocals are like one of the other instruments in the mix. In rap, the main vocals are like the meat on a typical plate of food. It is the main dish that dictates what the sides should be. Rock and alternative vocals are like having all vegetables for dinner. The main idea in putting together a plate of vegetables for dinner is making sure the foods are of different color. This makes the whole plate look more appetizing.

Damn...getting hungry....let me go make a sandwich.

Opera is on-par or above hip-hop with emphasis on vocals/vocals.
-Nick

[Mitch Lowen]

Originally Posted by Paul David

I think Dave Pensado is the master of loud vocal radio mixes because you can still hear the beat on pretty much any speakers at any angle, dudes got a lot of game.

Paul u just said it homie Dave 'Hard Drive' Pensado. Check his resumé. The fact you name Tony Maserati AND Phil Tan says enough -> we feelin' the same engineers.

I always use Tony Maserati as an example when talking about engineering and talking about the level I want to reach.

Got some music I can hear?

[deuc647]

Thats my whole point. i know the artist has to be heard but its crazy to have for example 50 all above the tracks, honestly i would fire the engineer who would mix my album like that, and no its not dre because if you listen to the obie trice oh or the watcher 2 , all the vocals sit in between the song, i know he boosts in the upper midrange but the mix is balanced, i dont think hip hop is drum snare vocals, its gotta be a balance.

Originally Posted by Mitch Lowen

Paul u just said it homie Dave 'Hard Drive' Pensado. Check his resumé. The fact you name Tony Maserati AND Phil Tan says enough -> we feelin' the same engineers.

I always use Tony Maserati as an example when talking about engineering and talking about the level I want to reach.

Got some music I can hear?

I think u should read his post again with regard to maserati and Phil Tan

[grahluk]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

It's probably that way because no other genre demands so many lyrics. With that being said, having the main vocals be heard is the PRIMARY goal. In rock and alternative music, the vocals are like one of the other instruments in the mix. In rap, the main vocals are like the meat on a typical plate of food. It is the main dish that dictates what the sides should be. Rock and alternative vocals are like having all vegetables for dinner. The main idea in putting together a plate of vegetables for dinner is making sure the foods are of different color. This makes the whole plate look more appetizing.

Damn...getting hungry....let me go make a sandwich.

Also Folk music. Pretty heavy emphasis on voice there too. Hmmm? If I cared we could probably come up with another couple hundred genres of music that places as much emphasis on the voice.

Now genres composed of ignorant and self important participants. There's many there too. Rap included.

[blayz2002]

deuc647...while there may be some examples of bad mixes with Hip Hop, I think the reason you have to have the vocal sitting slightly above every thing else is to with the fact that as apposed to singing where the melodies and harmonies can at the same time gel into the track and still cut through. With Rap your talking about about rythym, and not so much melody which I find unless you make it lead (bearing in mind the rest of the track is likely to be pretty rythmic) the vocal just sounds almost like a weak performance, partly because a lot of tracks are about energy, and if the rapper isn't loud you don't have the energy. I tend to set my drums > bass > then vocals > everything else is support.

[jonnyclueless]

I think it's due to record label weezels often using the vocal up version fo the songs thinking it will somehow ell more records cause people only want to hear the vocals (so they think). I KD won't give the labels a vocal up pass, he keeps it to himself so as to make it more difficult to use (In other words it has to be a thought out decision). He said he got tired of his mixes being ruined on radio from weeels contantly using the vocal up passes when they weren't needed.

It's also not just a hiphop issue, it happens in all music (well, maybe not instrumental or a cappella stuff).

I retract my earlier reason, I listened to Rock the bells and the vocal is not loud at all

[breakbeat-cafe]

Originally Posted by deuc647

Thats my whole point. i know the artist has to be heard but its crazy to have for example 50 all above the tracks, honestly i would fire the engineer who would mix my album like that, and no its not dre because if you listen to the obie trice oh or the watcher 2 , all the vocals sit in between the song, i know he boosts in the upper midrange but the mix is balanced, i dont think hip hop is drum snare vocals, its gotta be a balance.

I agree, for me it's about balance, it's about the whole thing as a peice of music, I think vox that's mixed up to much can feel detatched from the rest of the track. If the song is well composed and produced there should be room for everything to breathe.

[Phunkeman]

I believe it depends on the artist voice. Some people have no commanding presence in their voice. So you have to put them on top to understand them. Others with great voices belong on a mic and sit quite well in a mix and you don't have to push it out to get what is going on in the track.

[deuc647]

I feel ya on the artist performance and voice in general, cuz my voice sux in between tracks but i can mix my friends voice nice, but to me thats what an engineer is paid to do , if EQ is needed then add or subtract a lil, boost in the 8 to 12khz if needed, run a high pass filter to take out boominess, add more compression, I sometimes use a plug with 8:1 and it works fine sometimes. Its a big dissapointment when i hear great tracks that are, for a lack of better words, dimmed by the vocal performance. Its crazy cuz i get a lot of newbies that say they want the vocals louder in the mix , and i think its already over the track by a couple dbs, it seems that they want to show everyone that they are on a song.I mix all my sh-- evenly, if it doesnt fit flush in the mix, i make them redo the performance.

[Paul David]

Originally Posted by Mitch Lowen

Paul u just said it homie Dave 'Hard Drive' Pensado. Check his resumé. The fact you name Tony Maserati AND Phil Tan says enough -> we feelin' the same engineers.

I always use Tony Maserati as an example when talking about engineering and talking about the level I want to reach.

Got some music I can hear?

Yeah, No SSL is right. I'm actually not feeling T.M and P.T. Don't get me wrong, they ARE VERY TALENTED, but I just think Pensado's on another level sonically. Over the radio it's hard to tell what's really good. but when I put their mixes up in a hifi system I just don't like how crowded and 2 dimensional they sound compared to Pensado's mixes. In all fairness it could have a lot to do with the mastering process, since Pensado doesn't really use a mastering engineer he can make sure that his final mixes aren't squashed to piss, which is a lot of what I don't like about most current mixes. Check Brian McKnight's Gemini to hear some of my favorite mixes of 2005.

You can hear very very low fi examples of my work on Myspace... If you'd like to hear something better quality I'll send you some WMA's or high bitrate MP3's... If you're offended and don't want to hear anything of mine then well... I'll understand.


Peace

[mattssons]

I´m familiar with this problem, in my country Sweden. Its very common for people to put all music low, vocals way load, then squash everything dynamic away, then add lots of 5 k and cut most of the bass to make it loud.

I pay my bills by playing records in clubs and these records do not move any air at all but probably sound loud and punchy on computer style speakers most people listen to these days. I cant say they are wrong but the make my life hell.

Whats wrong with cutting vox frequencies in the backing track so you can have both loud vox and loud music? When you are on it cut away everything that clashes and free up some space, bandwidth.

Use paralell more so it kicks butt without feeling squashed to death.
Can only agree with the above posters, Tony, Dave and Bob !!