Do you get the Feel....

[Philly Stress]

... ing that the bottom might be getting ready to fall out of the Rap game?? The marketplace is overcrowded with half talents pushing mixtapes that didn't start getting into rap until they got locked up. Every other dude with a Trition (Whether
he can point to the middle C or Not!) is a hot producer and gets an article in the back of XXL. And saddest thing is if you saying anything about it, people think your crazy! I think soon that most people will lose there interest in hip hop, like they did with jazz . It also seems like Whites are taking over the genre artistically speaking. Atmosphere, Sage Francis and of course Enimem get acolodes from fans and selling out shows (and the stores in many cases) on a regular basis. I don't think even that a Platinum Artist like say a Nas or Jada could pull in the numbers to the shows like say an Atmosphere. My point is Because of the garbage that is being pushed off as hip hop, market oversaturation and the stigma associated with the genre the bubble could and (probably will) burst soon.

My 2 bits,
Philly Stress

[filterayok]

no---but the audience will change-----conventional rap will become more appealing to those with less intellectual taste, who are entertained by the most primitive things---shiny jewels, wwf style feuding, explosions, car chases, you know what i mean.... those who actually want some kind of artistic quality in their music, will go alternative ways----and right now, its becoming more interesting to see a white dude's take on what has become at this point, over saturated and campy.... at the very least it SOUNDS different----and it doesn't hurt that a large portion of their audience is white-------of course, color has nothing to do with it, just that i feel that if its true that most whites can't really pull of a gangster image, or in many cases, even LOOK cool rapping, it may work in their favor when people start looking around for ANYTHING that sounds different.... to me, guys like ludacris, nelly, snoop and busta are the tru masters---they deliver rap in its truest form, and maintain a high level of creativity and uniqueness---i can BARELY see the difference between game, 50, loyd banks, and the 80000 rappers who sound like all of em----they just sound "plain" to me

[Rand0mRoll77]

As much I would like the bottom to fall out of hip hop I really don't see it happening anytime soon.

The main reason is they are not marketable to the target audience in hip hop right now. Atmosphere has 2 music videos that got very little airplay. Although they sell out shows in good sized venues and are probably the biggest indie hip hop group nowadays, commercial radio still shows them little love. This may be because they don't have that inner city mentality or thug appeal that is so commonly associated with hip hop. Most teenagers watch MTV and eat up whatever new videos or gimmicky artists are released, they aren't skeptical of their economic agendas or realize their music is incredibly monotonous and misogynistinic.

I don't intend to offend anybody but I think a large portion of the commercial hip hop audience is too ignorant to understand music by the likes of Sage Francis and they dismiss it as nerd rap. I for one think Sage is probably the best lyricist in hip hop period but if you play his songs for someone who regularly bumps Game, 50, or Paul Wall and they will be like WTF is this. Not that Sage's music is incredibly cryptic, much of his subject matter is pretty straight forward, but it is so different than what people are hearing I have seen many close minded people dismiss it without giving it an honest listen.

Eminems lyrics were very good but I think part of the reason he got so big is the controversey surrounding the content in his songs...and the obvious support from Dr. Dre

There is a very small crowd of people in the hip hop industry who acknowledge of this garbage topping the charts and and even smaller crowd who are taking action to change it.

Here is an interesting article I read on Sage Francis' board yesterday


-------
Universal Zulu Nation Calls Emergency Meeting to Recapture Hip-Hop
By Chris Richburg
Date: 2/17/2006 3:40 pm



The Supreme World Council of the Universal Zulu Nation will hold an emergency meeting Feb. 22 to address what the group feels is an imbalance of Hip-Hop played on radio and TV stations.

Expected to appear at the meeting to support the Universal Zulu Nation and founder Afrika Bambataa include Hip-Hop activists Kevin Powell, Davey D, Rosa Clemente and April Silver; rapper KRS-One; the Temple of Hip-Hop, educator and filmmaker Martha Diaz; Public Enemy frontman Chuck D; photographer Ernie Paniccioli; Rock Steady Crew member Crazy Legs.

According to representatives for the Universal Zulu Nation, Bambaataa hopes steps will be taken to bring consciousness back to Hip-Hop.

"We are not saying to stop playing what you are playing on the air or showing on the TV, but to have balance and play it all, old-school to new-school to be true school," representatives for Bambaataa said in a statement.

The group hopes a plan of action will be devised to curtail "death and destruction playing on radio and TV music video shows."

The coalition of artists and activists hope to stop being scared to expose "record labels, radio stations, TV Hip-Hop shows or whatever shows that show us in a BS vision of just being pimps, playas, gangsters and hoes, straight up niggers, wiggers or any other derogatory words that they use and we use to call ourselves."

The emergency meeting starts at 6 p.m. at the National Black Theater, 125th Street and Fifth Ave. in New York City.

The Universal Zulu Nation was formed in the 1970's by Africa Bambaataa.
------

This is a good start but is there anybody representing the tv media or radio at this meeting? No.

[filterayok]

good luck with that Zulu nation----but the stations are playing what they're playing to attract a specific listener----the target consumer of the stations sponsers---if Budweiser drinkers were also known to love concious hiphop, then theyd play more of it----the music is just the bait for the advertisements...

[Big 3rd]

First, I want it to be known that if you are a talented rap artist and you so happened to be white, which I'm sure that there a many out there( I personally know of one here in Detroit that could slightly compete with Em), then welcome....do your thang.

But, and there is a but...........the industry and this country(for that matter) has a tendency to crack the door open a little wider for those that are white but in a field dominated mostly by blacks.

I remember when Em was reaching that "big time" status and this one particular day I was watching TRL on MTV. Em was the guest and they were outside talking with some of the fans. The host asked this one white guy what he liked about Em and he LITERALLY replied, "He's white, I'm white, it's just great man...woooooweee yeah baby!(yelling)"
To some, this may not mean much, but to me....this speaks millions on why Em is where he is and how a lot of white America thinks (secretly of course).
There is no doubt in my mind at all that Eminem is one of the greatest to EVER spit on the mic... hell I had him as the over greatest in another thread. But a ton of his fans are fans that never liked rap music before him. Is Em that much more greater than say a JayZ or a Nas that he will bring millions from a "I hate rap" point of view to a "rap is great" point of view? I think not. So all in all...if you combine the snakelike moves that the industry pulls with the stupidity of many ordinary American citizens, you get one big pool of Bulls***.

[filterayok]

you're right---its easier to package a white boy to the masses

[PhonoquO]

Em became what he did because he had a gimmick, and something new to put on the table. He could be extremely funny and maliciously angry in the same song. He played on pop culture like no other rapper had done before. The icing on the cake was Dre and his production ability. Em sold rap to white america. The bonus is that those white kids that never liked rap till Em hit, are feeling the good black artists that are out now, and were big in the past. Em's a catalyst man, and has had a greater impact on the modern hip hop industry than most will ever know!

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by filterayok

you're right---its easier to package a white boy to the masses

Actually, I think it has turned around and it is much more difficult at this point.

But, honestly let's stay on track and avoid the black/white debate... It's been talked about before.

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

.
But, honestly let's stay on track and avoid the black/white debate... It's been talked about before.

tony, seriously man, what hasn't been talked about before in this forum. Whether it's true or not( which in this case...it is), as long as it's about rap and it's not getting derogatory or obscene, then everthing should be all good. If you can't keep it real in the hiphop forum, where can you? Rap was founded and is based on talking about what the fake won't. Yes, I know there are forums for political discussions but this forum has a certain type of homeyness to it...a certain comfort to it. We're family man. We gotta and should talk about the real ON THIS FORUM.

[Philly Stress]

Originally Posted by Rand0mRoll77

As much I would like the bottom to fall out of hip hop I really don't see it happening anytime soon.

The main reason is they are not marketable to the target audience in hip hop right now. Atmosphere has 2 music videos that got very little airplay. Although they sell out shows in good sized venues and are probably the biggest indie hip hop group nowadays, commercial radio still shows them little love. This may be because they don't have that inner city mentality or thug appeal that is so commonly associated with hip hop. Most teenagers watch MTV and eat up whatever new videos or gimmicky artists are released, they aren't skeptical of their economic agendas or realize their music is incredibly monotonous and misogynistinic.

Atmosphere and Sage Francis are realy White bread groups.Think a rock station would have more success with there Music than say an "urban station". But the reall issue here is will the public get bored with the genre because of mediocacy??
Will hip hop go the same way of jazz or rock even?? It would be a fall worst because of the Stigma that still surrounds hip hop?

[nukmusic]

Originally Posted by PhonoquO

Em became what he did because he had a gimmick, and something new to put on the table. He could be extremely funny and maliciously angry in the same song. He played on pop culture like no other rapper had done before. The icing on the cake was Dre and his production ability. Em sold rap to white america. The bonus is that those white kids that never liked rap till Em hit, are feeling the good black artists that are out now, and were big in the past. Em's a catalyst man, and has had a greater impact on the modern hip hop industry than most will ever know!

more nails...LOL you hitting it just right man. in the words of Dr Dre from an interview....."Oh shit, he's white"

But Rap's here to stay, no matter what race the artist is. Sales drop, ya. but a lot of that also has to do with technology. I wish there were more talent on the mainstream, REALLY. There dam sure is talent on the underground. And this can be said about the whole music industry. It's funny how radio stations play the same songs over and over even though artists have a whole albums of songs that can be presented to the public. Bring back the real DJ's

[Philly Stress]

Originally Posted by nukmusic

more nails...LOL you hitting it just right man. in the words of Dr Dre from an interview....."Oh shit, he's white"

But Rap's here to stay, no matter what race the artist is. Sales drop, ya. but a lot of that also has to do with technology. I wish there were more talent on the mainstream, REALLY. There dam sure is talent on the underground. And this can be said about the whole music industry. It's funny how radio stations play the same songs over and over even though artists have a whole albums of songs that can be presented to the public. Bring back the real DJ's

How long will it stay on top, though??

[jlotto]

no matter what. Hip Hop is built in the hood. The hood is who co-signs and amd says who is hot and who is not. That's why i laugh when i hear that 50 lost the hood. No rapper could lose the hood and sell 5million albums. the hood dictates whats gonna pop off. If not vanilla ice would still be a huge star cause he had the suburbs on lock. Eminem because Dr. Dre co-signed and Paul Wall (swisha house co-signed) are the exceptions to the rule.

i'm from NYC and never heard of sage francis and atmosphere but they aint gonna be no bigger than they r now unless the hood- the real hood co-signs and that aint gonna happen unless they get hooked into a powerful crew.

hip hop's foundation is the urban inner city and the suburbs take their cue from us. suburbs buy almost all of the records and merchandise but that's still after we co-sign.

hip hop aint going no where. It's getting larger and larger and it's participants are becoming full fledged entertainers. Along w/ country music it's the biggest selling genre.

mp3 downlaods have hurt all records sales across the board

[Philly Stress]

Originally Posted by jlotto

no matter what. Hip Hop is built in the hood. The hood is who co-signs and amd says who is hot and who is not. That's why i laugh when i hear that 50 lost the hood. No rapper could lose the hood and sell 5million albums. the hood dictates whats gonna pop off. If not vanilla ice would still be a huge star cause he had the suburbs on lock. Eminem because Dr. Dre co-signed and Paul Wall (swisha house co-signed) are the exceptions to the rule.

i'm from NYC and never heard of sage francis and atmosphere but they aint gonna be no bigger than they r now unless the hood- the real hood co-signs and that aint gonna happen unless they get hooked into a powerful crew.

hip hop's foundation is the urban inner city and the suburbs take their cue from us. suburbs buy almost all of the records and merchandise but that's still after we co-sign.

hip hop aint going no where. It's getting larger and larger and it's participants are becoming full fledged entertainers. Along w/ country music it's the biggest selling genre.

mp3 downlaods have hurt all records sales across the board

You can't say the "hood" co-signed Kanye, though.

[nukmusic]

don't know how long P.S. but It'll be here for a minute.

and last time I checked. Country still out sells everything? correct me if I'm wrong. And evern some of those videos are starting to look like rap video's girls looking good in boots mannnnn.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Philly Stress

You can't say the "hood" co-signed Kanye, though.

By association with Jay-Z and the Roc...?

[alpha80]

I can vouch for that. Not one dude in the Chicago streets made heads or tails of Kanye, until "Thru the Wire" had a video, and honestly, the Consensus is still...

"Dude Soft"

I'd like to see him care less about awards though.

As far as feeling like the bottom is gonna fall out of the Rap game...

NEVER !!!!!!

Almost every point Philly Stress made has merit, but, still, NEVER...not even close.

Well when the hell did the HOOD cosign Vanilla Ice?

or Young MC

I think the "hood" is less important than we think (blacks blow money just not on music)

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by jlotto

no matter what. Hip Hop is built in the hood. The hood is who co-signs and amd says who is hot and who is not. That's why i laugh when i hear that 50 lost the hood. No rapper could lose the hood and sell 5million albums. the hood dictates whats gonna pop off. If not vanilla ice would still be a huge star cause he had the suburbs on lock. Eminem because Dr. Dre co-signed and Paul Wall (swisha house co-signed) are the exceptions to the rule.

i'm from NYC and never heard of sage francis and atmosphere but they aint gonna be no bigger than they r now unless the hood- the real hood co-signs and that aint gonna happen unless they get hooked into a powerful crew.

hip hop's foundation is the urban inner city and the suburbs take their cue from us. suburbs buy almost all of the records and merchandise but that's still after we co-sign.

hip hop aint going no where. It's getting larger and larger and it's participants are becoming full fledged entertainers. Along w/ country music it's the biggest selling genre.

mp3 downlaods have hurt all records sales across the board

you'll hear of atmosphere soon, trust me-----he's got EVERYTHING in place except the right song----he hasn't written a hooky enough song to blow up for real yet...he's like the anti-hood rap----once these groups---ATmosphere, Fort Minor, Sage Francis, Styles of Beyond, all these alterna-rap groups break thru to mainstream, its gonna be like when Nirvana changed rock----and somebody said it, but yea it'll probably be more geared towards the rock stations...they'll always be a place for gangsta rap, but its inevitable, these groups WILL blow up....

[Rand0mRoll77]

Hey jlotto,

You say mp3 downloads have hurt record sales all around??

Well MP3 downloads have actually helped and sprouted the career of many underground rap artists. If they aren't on the radio or tv how else would people hear them?

You should really try to look into artists that aren't on TV or the radio, there is some great talent out there.

You say you're from NYC. I hope you've heard of Tonedeff. He IS the fastest rapper in the world (if you're into that type of stuff) and he doesn't just tongue twist nonsense. He has very intricate rhyme patterns and wild multi's. He doesn't just tongue twist either he raps at a regular pace on many of his songs. He also sings. Check him out www.myspace.com/tonedeff
www.qn5.com

He's had tons of meetings with A&Rs at major labels...guess what they all what him to do, rap about jewlery/money/cars/hoes.

I have a good feeling that many of the rappers you think are from the "streets" or "hood" are in fact not. They are just packaged by their record companies that way and given an image to make them sell more records.

Also, Atmosphere isn't a HE. It is a duo. Ant = The Producer, Slug = The rapper. They compliment eachother well, slug's lyrics aren't top notch but still better than almost all of the stuff thats on the radio today. I don't really see them blowing up in the urban/inner city hip hop scene. I agree they appeal more to suburban kids...and teenage girls.

Though you'd be suprised how many people told me "Wait a second, Slug is white?!?!?!?" after never having seen him before....haha

[jlotto]

I work in the industry, not guessing about it.

Never heard of Tone deff. I been in the game for a bit. I'm one of the better known mixtape dj's in the country and have a show on sirius as well. We just got us 2 label situations- one w/ uni and one w/ jive. There's a reason why artists r underground and it has alot to do with the artists material and character than the "establishment" that everyone who is not in wants to blame.

Kanye been co-signed from his affiliations and beats for BIG, Jay-Z, rocafella, etc. whoever said Kanye wasnt co-signed by the hood needs the turn in the rap listening membership. Co-signed by the hood way before the burbs saw him on a video. Way before he even let us know he was a rapper. when he was puttin out his own mixtapes on the street here.

Alternative rap will never make it in the inner city. And the inner city controls the foundation and direction of hip hop. Just that simple. U cant just steal that and bring it to the burbs. Like I said b4- The burbs take their cue from the inner city. If that wasnt the case vanilla ice would still be killin' it because he had the burbs on lock. Vanilla Ice was a catchy one hit wonder like oomp there it is. That dont have to be co-signed by the hood. But he would have survived if the suburbs were able to sustain him.

If u wanna do alternative rap like linkin park then u hittin the rock arena more than the rap arena. inner city kids dont play linkin park w/ jadakiss, nas, red cafe, young jeezy, dipset, g-unit, etc. Jay-Z did an album with them and we still didnt rock it here. But they did their sales with the rock fans.

I'm talking mp3 downloads of established artists or new artists on labels. mp3 downloads have hurt sales of artists who were already moving major units. Back in 93/94 snop dogg came out first week at 1.2mill. If that was 2005 he may have done 700k first week.

As far as the dude who said "I think the "hood" is less important than we think (blacks blow money just not on music)" You dont have a clue. And that statement is some clown nonsense. But imma take it in stride. It's not about us BLACKS buying the music it's about the image we project. The artists that we have out. The visuals that have every surburban/trailer park kid wanting to be like us BLACKS in this hip hop way of life. Look around at ur teens and young adults and look at the hip hop influence.

It is true that the suburbs buy 80% of hip hop in the USA. So why isn't easy for a suburban rapper kid to take off with ease? because u cannot bypass the hood co-sign that all the suburban rap fans take their cue from. You cant steal our hip hop like that. IE: Smilez and Southstar (anybody remember them). Label thought they could bypass the hood and just put out a video, and put money behind that and get it on MTV/BET all day long and lock down the internet. Song also got major BDS spins across the country. They didn't do jack. We laughed every time we saw the video and heard the song.

[filterayok]

smilez and southstar---i actually kinda liked that song.... but again the problem there?? their style was straight down the middle.. i agree the hood needs to sign off on THAT kind of rap... but i think your gonna see these alternative rap groups start selling ALOT of records in the near future,,, no, the hood wont like em, but i think in due time, those kinds of acts will easily outsell a jadakiss, or a lloyd banks.. dont confuse your suburbanites----yes there are the die hard rap loving white kids, who stay tru to REAL rap, and dismiss anything not "official".... but there is a LARGE number of kids, who just like edgy, good, tough music.... they like 50 cent, but they'll BUY the linkin park album... they'll buy atmosphere, three-eleven, slipknot... anything good and new.... THATS the kids that are starving for something new, that the record labels aren't acknowledging... they say its RAP, so its gotta be hood---no just cause your rapping, doesnt mean it's "hiphop"---there's a niche waiting to be filled by thoses types of artists...

[Umlaaat]

Originally Posted by filterayok

smilez and southstar---i actually kinda liked that song.... but again the problem there?? their style was straight down the middle.. i agree the hood needs to sign off on THAT kind of rap... but i think your gonna see these alternative rap groups start selling ALOT of records in the near future,,, no, the hood wont like em, but i think in due time, those kinds of acts will easily outsell a jadakiss, or a lloyd banks.. dont confuse your suburbanites----yes there are the die hard rap loving white kids, who stay tru to REAL rap, and dismiss anything not "official".... but there is a LARGE number of kids, who just like edgy, good, tough music.... they like 50 cent, but they'll BUY the linkin park album... they'll buy atmosphere, three-eleven, slipknot... anything good and new.... THATS the kids that are starving for something new, that the record labels aren't acknowledging... they say its RAP, so its gotta be hood---no just cause your rapping, doesnt mean it's "hiphop"---there's a niche waiting to be filled by thoses types of artists...

yup.

its time for some change.

actually to play ALL the avenues is the smartest thing you can do.

[TWC]

Originally Posted by filterayok

smilez and southstar---i actually kinda liked that song.... but again the problem there?? their style was straight down the middle.. i agree the hood needs to sign off on THAT kind of rap... but i think your gonna see these alternative rap groups start selling ALOT of records in the near future,,, no, the hood wont like em, but i think in due time, those kinds of acts will easily outsell a jadakiss, or a lloyd banks.. dont confuse your suburbanites----yes there are the die hard rap loving white kids, who stay tru to REAL rap, and dismiss anything not "official".... but there is a LARGE number of kids, who just like edgy, good, tough music.... they like 50 cent, but they'll BUY the linkin park album... they'll buy atmosphere, three-eleven, slipknot... anything good and new.... THATS the kids that are starving for something new, that the record labels aren't acknowledging... they say its RAP, so its gotta be hood---no just cause your rapping, doesnt mean it's "hiphop"---there's a niche waiting to be filled by thoses types of artists...

no offense or anything, but that plan sounds like a marketing disaster in terms of whats cool in highschools and colleges right now (I'm not speaking on the quality of music at all, just the trends). "edgy, good, tough music" is "so 90's". Edgy tough music is just not cool right now. Indie/emo is huge thanks to (in my theory) the O.C. and its soundtrack, and its the direct opposite of edgy and tough. Its cool to be ultra-white, conservative, privileged (yet always refer to yourself as "middle class") and effeminate .. dark rap rock type stuff like that bands you mentioned is the epitome of uncool these days. Seriousness, darkness, agression is looked down upon, its too trailer trash... no cool kids want to listen to anything that sounds remotely like evenesence or limp bizkit.

How does rap fit into that mindset? IRONICALLY. Its a joke to these kids, its novelty music. They love paul wall cause they think he's hilarious, not cause of his music. Same for pretty much all the rap around. Its lame to be into underground rap cause it means your a wigger, but its cool to rock a dipset shirt or buy an $50 grill to wear for one party cause its a novelty. Its cool to get drunk and dance to hip hop.. its not cool to go buy the albums.
Right now the biggest market a hip hop artist can aim for is the novelty market. example: laffy taffy, grillz
Thats where the money is at.. all those drunken iTunes downloads

[Teacher]

Originally Posted by filterayok

you'll hear of atmosphere soon, trust me-----he's got EVERYTHING in place except the right song----he hasn't written a hooky enough song to blow up for real yet...he's like the anti-hood rap----once these groups---ATmosphere, Fort Minor, Sage Francis, Styles of Beyond, all these alterna-rap groups break thru to mainstream, its gonna be like when Nirvana changed rock----and somebody said it, but yea it'll probably be more geared towards the rock stations...they'll always be a place for gangsta rap, but its inevitable, these groups WILL blow up....

I dunno if its inevitable cuz atmoshphere has been around for almost a DECADE now....i heard about them in 97-98 and i'm pretty sure they were out before I heard of them....it would be nice to have a change though... and slug is a beast when he doesn't get to "EMOed" out