Other than guitars and basses, when is it absolutely necessary to use a D.I.?

[Big 3rd]

About to track a song and I've always been hung up on when a D.I. is absolutely necessary, that is other than guitars and the such. I specifically want to know if you NEED a D.I. for a tracking from an MPC 2000 or a motif? And will the difference be obvious as hell?

[Big 3rd]

Is there anybody out there that can help me?

[nukmusic]

ya it makes the sound bigger. try it and see for yourself. what DI's are you using? Make sure that the outputs are balanced going into your recorder.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

About to track a song and I've always been hung up on when a D.I. is absolutely necessary, that is other than guitars and the such. I specifically want to know if you NEED a D.I. for a tracking from an MPC 2000 or a motif? And will the difference be obvious as hell?

Yes.... try it for yourself.

I would use a DI whenever coming out of a keyboard, drum machine or sampler with an unbalanced output.

[con?one]

haha, i wish i was that smart or motivated... i come right out of the MP, e4 and Fantom into the patchbay (and right into my AI)

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Yes.... try it for yourself.

I would use a DI whenever coming out of a keyboard, drum machine or sampler with an unbalanced output.

That is what I'm hearing but I've looked on my manuals and I'm not finding where it says it is or isn't balanced outputs. This would be my chain: D.I.s(on the control 24)-->1073-->Destressor-->ad16x-->hd2.

Now, does anyone know if the control 24s D.I.s are decent or not?
Thanks guys. I appreciate it.

[nukmusic]

Big 3rd. I know for sure that the Motif, Motif ES, and MPC2000 has unbalanced outputs. The mpc4000, and 2500 has balanced outputs. I have the Motif es & the 2500. DI's works.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

That is what I'm hearing but I've looked on my manuals and I'm not finding where it says it is or isn't balanced outputs. This would be my chain: D.I.s(on the control 24)-->1073-->Destressor-->ad16x-->hd2.

No that's not the way you want to do it.

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Now, does anyone know if the control 24s D.I.s are decent or not?
Thanks guys. I appreciate it.

They suck.


My friend not to pick on you but if you are not that tech savyy why not hire or find and engineer to do your tech stuff so you can focus on the productions?

I mean where is it written in stone around here that everyone has to do or know everything?

There are benefits to working with other people that are experts or better than us in certain things.

That's how we learn and get better.

I think these kind of collaborations usually yield the best results.

You know like a Team(or Crew).

Everyone focuses on what they do best and you as the head give the directions.

Heck it works for guys like Dre, The Neptunes and Quincy Jones.

Anyway that's just an opinion.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

That is what I'm hearing but I've looked on my manuals and I'm not finding where it says it is or isn't balanced outputs. This would be my chain: D.I.s(on the control 24)-->1073-->Destressor-->ad16x-->hd2.

Now, does anyone know if the control 24s D.I.s are decent or not?
Thanks guys. I appreciate it.

Skip those and get one of these...

http://www.countryman.com/html_data_sheets/t85data.html

or these...

http://www.bssaudio.com/includes/pro...?product_id=15

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

No that's not the way you want to do it.



They suck.


My friend not to pick on you but if you are not that tech savyy why not hire or find and engineer to do your tech stuff so you can focus on the productions?

I mean where is it written in stone around here that everyone has to do or know everything?

There are benefits to working with other people that are experts or better than us in certain things.

That's how we learn and get better.

I think these kind of collaborations usually yield the best results.

You know like a Team(or Crew).

Everyone focuses on what they do best and you as the head give the directions.

Heck it works for guys like Dre, The Neptunes and Quincy Jones.

Anyway that's just an opinion.

It has been a long time since someone kinda pissed me off with what I think is a very unintelligient statement, especially when I view them as someone of respectable intellect and experience.
Thrill, you get major respect for your experience and knowledge in this forum and I'm sure anytime you go elsewhere and there are people that do music such as yourself, you receive a certain amount of respect.
Having said that, I'm pretty sure you didn't wake up one day and just know all of what you know about engineering and producing music, at least not all at once. It takes many trials and errors, many hours of just experimenting, reading, listening, and any other way that the knowledge and experience can embed itself into your brain and become second nature.

I am not a genius nor are you. But just because you know that your mind isn't perfect, I'm pretty damn sure that that doesn't keep you from trying to know more than you already know.
I asked a simple question....maybe YOU feel that it's stupid...maybe YOU feel that it's out of my league... maybe you just feel that it's a waste of your time trying to explain it to me....nevertheless, one thing is for sure....YOU DID NOT HAVE TO REPLY AT ALL. I'm a grown a** man. I know when I've reached something that I either, can't learn, don't want to learn, or when I'm just ready to pay someonelse for their knowledge. Being the "smart" individual that YOU are, you should have realized that by me putting this thread together...I was asking ...and by me asking...that I wanted to learn it for myself with the intensions of implementing the knowledge into action, for MYSELF.
I'm not rich. I don't have the luxury of having many different pres, comps, eqs, and etcs to choose from when I'm recording.
Now.... you just replied with a "no, they suck" and a good ole fashion, "that's not the way to do it." Just curious...did it every occur to you to maybe, just maybe, to say, "no, that's not how you do it, this is how you do it, ...."
Did it ever make sense to you to say, " Man, those D.I.s suck because....."

I don't know. Maybe it's just me and my dumb a** logic again.

[(DC)]

Man, one thing I have learned about online forums:

If they don't tell you anything you feel is worth paying attention to... then don't pay any attention to it.

[Big 3rd]

Anyway,

So is it fair to say that when recording keyboards, drum machines, and etc, you should record through D.I.s all the time...just in case you're not sure.

Also Tony, these D.I.s are my only ones right now. And yes, I know that there are better options out there. But, what about them do you not like? I mean...it's not like I'm running them from d.i. straight to the recorder. I am running them through good stuff after the signal is brought to "line" level. Do you think the d.i.s could actually downgrade the sound?

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by (DC)

Man, one thing I have learned about online forums:

If they don't tell you anything you feel is worth paying attention to... then don't pay any attention to it.

Yeah, I see. I just now know how to label people like that . dfegad fuuck

[Paul David]

Well I agree with the fact that we're all here to learn, I also agree with the fact that teamwork will take a production to the next level... Maybe I should be a politician

Back to the subject...

Hey Big 3rd, Does your 1073 have a 1/4 input? If so, with your setup, I would first try going direct into the 1073 and then into the apogee... I am a short signal path fiend! I cleary remember how the DI's on a BA racked original 1272 sound but I can't for the life of me remember ever using the DI on a 1073... If they're similar than it will yeild a warm, bigger than source sound at the cost of a little high end clarity.

Do you have any other preamps? Most preamps have a di on them. If not then there are about 40 different makes and models of Di's out there... The cheapest that I've really liked are the radials and some of the more ethereal ones are Millenia TD-1, Evil Twin, V71.


http://www.radialeng.com/di-jdi.htm

http://www.mil-media.com/docs/products/td1.shtml

http://www.mercenary.com/tabfunkenwerk.html

Fletcher says that these are cool... And they're cheap. http://www.mercenary.com/axmax.html

Good luck

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Anyway,

So is it fair to say that when recording keyboards, drum machines, and etc, you should record through D.I.s all the time...just in case you're not sure.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Also Tony, these D.I.s are my only ones right now. And yes, I know that there are better options out there. But, what about them do you not like? I mean...it's not like I'm running them from d.i. straight to the recorder. I am running them through good stuff after the signal is brought to "line" level. Do you think the d.i.s could actually downgrade the sound?

They could certainly degrade your sound... I personally wouldn't use those pre's or DI's for anything, considering that DI is a 5 cent IC...Experiment with them though... you might like them. If you don't like the sound then grab one of the units I pointed you towards, the BSS units are around $150 and worth it. Plug that into your 1073 mic in and you'll have a nice thick tone.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

It has been a long time since someone kinda pissed me off with what I think is a very unintelligient statement, especially when I view them as someone of respectable intellect and experience.

First of all try not to take it personally...

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Thrill, you get major respect for your experience and knowledge in this forum and I'm sure anytime you go elsewhere and there are people that do music such as yourself, you receive a certain amount of respect.

Ok thanks....

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Having said that, I'm pretty sure you didn't wake up one day and just know all of what you know about engineering and producing music,

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

at least not all at once.

Again agreed,

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

It takes many trials and errors, many hours of just experimenting, reading, listening, and any other way that the knowledge and experience can embed itself into your brain and become second nature.

Totally agreed and understood.

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

I am not a genius nor are you.

Sorry got to disagree here.

I have an IQ of 170.

Just kidding man!!!

(Insert laughter here)

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

But just because you know that your mind isn't perfect, I'm pretty damn sure that that doesn't keep you from trying to know more than you already know.
I asked a simple question....maybe YOU feel that it's stupid...maybe YOU feel that it's out of my league... maybe you just feel that it's a waste of your time trying to explain it to me....nevertheless, one thing is for sure....YOU DID NOT HAVE TO REPLY AT ALL.

Whoa Big hold on and relax.

I never said it was stupid.

And your right i did not have to reply.

And no i don't feel that its out of your league.

I have read in the past that you said you had sh*t that was starting to happen so my suggestion was more as a piece of advice so you won't have to worry about things like DI's and so you can focus more of your mind power making hot tracks,shopping them or developing artists.

I also feel and believe that collaborations where people focus on their strengths yields the best results.

I work with Hiphop/rap artists,producers,beatmakers and managers and i am happy just being the engineer because i feel that's where my strengths serve them best.

Yeah i can produce tracks and shop them to labels but i know my best bet these days is filling the gaps where my clients come up short.

And my clients appreciate that so they can focus on doing there things.

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

I'm a grown a** man. I know when I've reached something that I either, can't learn, don't want to learn, or when I'm just ready to pay someonelse for their knowledge. Being the "smart" individual that YOU are, you should have realized that by me putting this thread together...I was asking ...and by me asking...that I wanted to learn it for myself with the intensions of implementing the knowledge into action, for MYSELF.

Ok.

I don't know how to answer this one.

But i will say as for me i did study electronic technology,music,acoustics and recording engineering.

And this was before there were any real schools that were teaching recording engineering.

Does this really mean anything...who knows?

(It does look good on my resume).

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

I'm not rich. I don't have the luxury of having many different pres, comps, eqs, and etcs to choose from when I'm recording.

You could have access if instead of buying the gear and setting up the personal studio you spent the funds to record at a professional studio with the best engineer you could find, but hey that's a whole other thread in itself.

Here in NYC Hiphop/rap was the main thing keeping the bigger studios open.

When alot of the producers decided to pull out and do everything at home it hurt the industry in different ways.

One way that has nothing to do with the gear or money is the knowledge and inspiration you get from working with different people.

Sometimes it was people doing another session who just happen to walk by and was digging your sh*t!!!

Maybe it was rock band, a reggae group or a jazz group whose talent and advice you could snatch on the spot.

Or maybe the hotshot engineer who was just chillin and could give you some pointers.

Now its like everyone is locked up in their houses looking to the faceless internet for help and answers(some of which just can't be explained with words but has to be shown).

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Now.... you just replied with a "no, they suck" and a good ole fashion, "that's not the way to do it." Just curious...did it every occur to you to maybe, just maybe, to say, "no, that's not how you do it, this is how you do it, ...."
Did it ever make sense to you to say, " Man, those D.I.s suck because....."

I don't know. Maybe it's just me and my dumb a** logic again.

Yeah i could worded it different, but most people that know me by now know that i just shoot from the hip and its never personal.

I got nothing to gain by making it that.

This is a gear forumn.

And my comments are always directed to the gear.

Look man no disrepect was meant by it.

The DI's as well as the Focusrite mic pres and monitor section on the C24 were throw ins to sell as many as possible.

You could do better in a lot of respects on each.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by (DC)

Man, one thing I have learned about online forums:

If they don't tell you anything you feel is worth paying attention to... then don't pay any attention to it.

Also i never say(or type) something i wouldn't say to someone face to face.

I've always tried to pride myself on that.

[babyface_finsta]

I'm looking in my project studio shaking my head... thinking damn... more $$$... and imagining all these lil DI boxes all over the place... I'm losing count... so I'll just list my most used gear... and maybe someone can map out a solution...

MPC4k
SP1200
MPC2KXL
Korg DSS-1
V-Synth
Motif
General Music S2
Korg Triton
Rhodes 73
Novation Bass Station
Couple of Racks

I'm a little lazy when it comes to pulling plugs... HELP!!!

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by babyface_finsta

I'm looking in my project studio shaking my head... thinking damn... more $$$... and imagining all these lil DI boxes all over the place... I'm losing count... so I'll just list my most used gear... and maybe someone can map out a solution...

MPC4k
SP1200
MPC2KXL
Korg DSS-1
V-Synth
Motif
General Music S2
Korg Triton
Rhodes 73
Novation Bass Station
Couple of Racks

I'm a little lazy when it comes to pulling plugs... HELP!!!

Here you go.... only one box needed.

http://highprofileaudio.com/wst_page7.html

Plus, this brings it up to +4/line level, rather than dropping it to mic level.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by babyface_finsta

I'm looking in my project studio shaking my head... thinking damn... more $$$... and imagining all these lil DI boxes all over the place... I'm losing count... so I'll just list my most used gear... and maybe someone can map out a solution...

MPC4k
SP1200
MPC2KXL
Korg DSS-1
V-Synth
Motif
General Music S2
Korg Triton
Rhodes 73
Novation Bass Station
Couple of Racks

I'm a little lazy when it comes to pulling plugs... HELP!!!

Here you go.... only one box needed.

http://highprofileaudio.com/wst_page7.html

Plus, this brings it up to +4/line level, rather than dropping it to mic level.

[tonymite]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Here you go.... only one box needed.

http://highprofileaudio.com/wst_page7.html

Plus, this brings it up to +4/line level, rather than dropping it to mic level.

How would a D.I be of any adavantage if you were ti go straight into the instrument in or Direct in os say ... for arguments sake ... an Aurora GTQ ??

and I'm not talking situations where the keyboard is 500m away ... strictly studio situations... not Gunners Live at Calder Park '93

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by tonymite

How would a D.I be of any adavantage if you were ti go straight into the instrument in or Direct in os say ... for arguments sake ... an Aurora GTQ ??

and I'm not talking situations where the keyboard is 500m away ... strictly studio situations... not Gunners Live at Calder Park '93

It wouldn't really....

Although, it could change the sound in a different way that you may or may not like. It would also probably add more noise, etc.

Simple rule: If a preamp has an Instrument In on the front, it's probably the best way to go, or at least try first.

[shikawkee]

I partially designed this for guitars and for my MPC:

http://www.edpettersen.com/edpettersen/Coileq.html

It's great for carving samples on the way in.
The 600ohm tranny's don't hurt either.

[Big 3rd]

Maybe it's just me, but with today's use of electronic equipment being used more and more as the instrument vs. natural instruments being miked up, I think that the D.I. is one of the most overlooked pieces in the recording process. Whenever you talk about the front end chain, rarely do you hear about a D.I. being included.
Has anyone used that Avalon D.I.?

Also, should you only use unbalanced cables up to the D.I., then balanced thereafter?

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Also, should you only use unbalanced cables up to the D.I., then balanced thereafter?

Yes.

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Yes.

Ok, what if you used balanced the whole way, what is the result in comparison?

[Flymax]

Avalon U5...have it, love it, wish to have a pair for synths...
-PC

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Ok, what if you used balanced the whole way, what is the result in comparison?

problems....

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

problems....

Come on Tony, what kinda answer is that?

I guess you and Thrillfactor hang out alot.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Come on Tony, what kinda answer is that?

Well what happens when you plug in a balanced 1/4"cable into an unbalanced 1/4" jack?

Basically only the tip and sleeve will make contact.

Having the ring not making contact is not best.

You really want to short it to the ground.

On certain jacks/circuits it happens automatically and the signal is fine.

On others it doesn't and the signal is low(cold os floating).

Your best bet is to use unbalanced cables for the inputs.

On a patchbay you can configure it how you want.

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

I guess you and Thrillfactor hang out alot.

I wish.

If we did maybe i could get him to give me one of those Aurora mic pres for free.