how do you guys work with R&B singer??

[jazzy655]

Hey i've got a question for some of the more experienced producers on the forum.
We've been starting to get into projects with R&B singers, and we're running into an issue.
The process of making a song from the ground up with a singer is TOTALLY different from working with
a rapper. I'm a little lost on the whole process.

I've noticed that singers almost need to hear the song recorded before they can go back and record it themselves.
How are you cats communicating your ideas with these singers?? It's funny cause the people we work with have
great voices and talent but are really really musically dumb. They really need to be babied along it seems.

Also, does it take you guys multiple tracking sessions to get things where you like? ie. leads one day, then BG vox another.

Whats the typical process for you guys on an R&B project?

thanks...

[Teacher]

I give them the beat, they write a song, I let them "do what it do" but if something is disgustingly off key I'll tell them re do it. Mix it give it to them so they can hear themselves and make adjustments from there.

[con?one]

Originally Posted by jazzy655

I've noticed that singers almost need to hear the song recorded before they can go back and record it themselves.

if they're recording a song they didn't write, it's easiest to have a reference vocal for them to hear. i like to record as much as possible for the demo/ reference. we'll even do ad libs, f it... it makes the idea more complete for the artist recording the song (and makes your life easier)

Originally Posted by jazzy655

How are you cats communicating your ideas with these singers?? It's funny cause the people we work with have
great voices and talent but are really really musically dumb. They really need to be babied along it seems.

musically dumb how? explain it however you need to in order to get the performance you need.

[jazzy655]

con?one

are you saying YOU personally record ref vocals and then give it to the artist??

[con?one]

nooooooooo

[themaestro]

its an art...i've recorded songs with multiplatinum r&b vocalists and its always basically the same....listen up! i work with writers who demo the songs and come up with the arrangements...we record the verses, the hooks, the harmonies, the backgrounds, the adlibs, everything! mix it down...give it to the artist so they can learn it...then when they come to record you redo all of the vocal parts that the writer or demo singer laid down. the vocalist may even request (or it may be necessary) for you to keep the pre-recorded vocals in the final mix. unless the singer is a songwriter as well, or has a writing partner, or you are a songwriter, it will be impossible to come up with a complete song. I've worked with super-talented/super-successful artists that can do runs and riffs and send chills down your spine...BUT CAN'T HEAR HARMONY!!!!! in essence, recording good r&b music requires a team of people who can bring the song to life, or it requires you as the producer/engineer to know how to properly format and build a song because trust me....most artists cant do it on their own!

[jazzy655]

Originally Posted by themaestro

its an art...i've recorded songs with multiplatinum r&b vocalists and its always basically the same....listen up! i work with writers who demo the songs and come up with the arrangements...we record the verses, the hooks, the harmonies, the backgrounds, the adlibs, everything! mix it down...give it to the artist so they can learn it...then when they come to record you redo all of the vocal parts that the writer or demo singer laid down. the vocalist may even request (or it may be necessary) for you to keep the pre-recorded vocals in the final mix. unless the singer is a songwriter as well, or has a writing partner, or you are a songwriter, it will be impossible to come up with a complete song. I've worked with super-talented/super-successful artists that can do runs and riffs and send chills down your spine...BUT CAN'T HEAR HARMONY!!!!! in essence, recording good r&b music requires a team of people who can bring the song to life, or it requires you as the producer/engineer to know how to properly format and build a song because trust me....most artists cant do it on their own!

perfect. exactly the kind of info i was looking for. thanks man!
gotta find some songwriters who can sing. a lot of times the artist we work with THINK they're songwriters. but they ain't!

[automatedUK]

Originally Posted by con?one

nooooooooo

Who do you get to sing it? It it always the writer?

You can also use a vocal coach/producer. I've seen cases where the vocal arranger will stand by the talkback mic, sing a line, then have the singer record it. Then sing the next line, and have the singer record it

Maestro I feel u, I've been in a session with a VERY well known songstress who absolutesly couldnt sing with headphones on

[themaestro]

Originally Posted by automatedUK

Who do you get to sing it? It it always the writer?

this may help a bit more...one of my production partners is a super talented writer named chris henderson...he wrote and produced the platinum single 'happily ever after' for case, which was sampled for 'the greatest sex' on r kelly's platinum album, which was sampled for g unit's platinum album for the song 'I smell pu$$y'.....anyway, he is the truth when it comes to songwriting and arrangement. he is not a great singer, but he will write a song and record a scratch of all the parts including all of the harmonies and any adlibs he can screech out...he then calls in a demo singer, who is an excellent singer in their own rite, they listen to the scratch and resing all of the parts that chris already laid. at this point, the song already sounds like a finished piece! (sometimes our demo singer sounds better than the final singer!) THEN, the artist comes in and relays the whole song...there is no guess work in what it is supposed to sound like...chris or i dont have to burst blood vessels trying to hit notes for the artist, our demo guy/girl has already done a superb job of it...so you see...a song may be recorded up to 3 or more times before it is finished! and changes or additions are made at every step of the way until the song is done and placed on an album.....

[jazzy655]

Originally Posted by themaestro

this may help a bit more...one of my production partners is a super talented writer named chris henderson...he wrote and produced the platinum single 'happily ever after' for case, which was sampled for 'the greatest sex' on r kelly's platinum album, which was sampled for g unit's platinum album for the song 'I smell pu$$y'.....anyway, he is the truth when it comes to songwriting and arrangement. he is not a great singer, but he will write a song and record a scratch of all the parts including all of the harmonies and any adlibs he can screech out...he then calls in a demo singer, who is an excellent singer in their own rite, they listen to the scratch and resing all of the parts that chris already laid. at this point, the song already sounds like a finished piece! (sometimes our demo singer sounds better than the final singer!) THEN, the artist comes in and relays the whole song...there is no guess work in what it is supposed to sound like...chris or i dont have to burst blood vessels trying to hit notes for the artist, our demo guy/girl has already done a superb job of it...so you see...a song may be recorded up to 3 or more times before it is finished! and changes or additions are made at every step of the way until the song is done and placed on an album.....

gotcha. thats awesome

Maestro, have u talked to Lavell lately?

[themaestro]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

You can also use a vocal coach/producer. I've seen cases where the vocal arranger will stand by the talkback mic, sing a line, then have the singer record it. Then sing the next line, and have the singer record it

Maestro I feel u, I've been in a session with a VERY well known songstress who absolutesly couldnt sing with headphones on

i feel you brother...i was in la at will smith's studio recording with a VERY well known female trio and one of the group members couldn't hit a certain part with the headphones on. her pitch was fairly good but she could not manage to get the part recorded...i had to rock from side to side hard as hell to the beat in the control room just so she could watch me to match the tempo! that was crazy

[themaestro]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

Maestro, have u talked to Lavell lately?

i talked to him last week, i think he's here in the A so i'm gonna link with him this week...i think he's on the new remy ma album and working on a couple other things as well

[Musiclab]

If I'm producing and I wrote the song I prefer to teach them the melody and have them sing it. Sometimes you get lucky and something great can happen in that process and then I have it recorded. If not I find it clicks a little better in the singers head to hear themselves sing the melody. If the singer has chops then I won't have to worry much about giving them riffs but if need be I can. I'll also give them harmony parts if they can't hear parts, I'll also make sure that the parts that they come up with don't rub up against the chords. If its a song that they wrote, which usually means they have an idea for a melody and lyrics I'll come up with the chords and the groove, have them sing a ref, work on harmony. Recently I worked with a singer/songwriter named Asiah Lewis on a demo of hers, she had the arrangements for her background vocals, had excellent pitch and time, doubled herself great, she was a pleasure to work with, but she is definetly not the norm. Years ago I worked with the late great Keith Diamond, Keith would often have another singer do a reference guide vocal for the artist, his cousin Tony would be in constantly doing this, he was such an amazing singer they would even use him sometimes for the guides on female tracks.

[filterayok]

where are you located---i know a lot of demo singers in Ny----they cost anywhere from 200-300 bucks a song, but look at it this way---they'll arrange all the harmonies themselves, and in almost every case, you could probably leave their bgvs on the final record---that way, if you get an artist thats not on point, you could have em just sing the lead, and maybe just the root note of the bgv's---all you're sweet harmony parts are taken care of...to me thats the best way, cause then if you pitch a demo, and it ends up being cut, the artist can only **** up the song so much...at least the bgv's can stay somewhat like the a&r's and the artist remember them...


SO MANY times a song sounds great with the demo singer, but then the artist screws it up by not giving it the right performance---this at least marginalizes that

[con?one]

Originally Posted by automatedUK

Who do you get to sing it? It it always the writer?

it depends... and it's not a regular thing for me. sometimes (most times) the singer/ writer i primarily work with does the whole song and we give it to the singer and go from there... also because if we don't wind up placing the song,we may wanna use it for her project, etc...
in some cases, to help sell the idea, we might use a male singer if the song's going to a guy (we only did that once, a couple weeks ago for a c. thomas record)

[funkynuts]

Personally i just use a big stick and beat them until they hit the right note.
Applying the stick to the genitals gives a sharper pitch and applying it to shoulders a flatter one.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by filterayok

where are you located---i know a lot of demo singers in Ny----they cost anywhere from 200-300 bucks a song, but look at it this way---they'll arrange all the harmonies themselves, and in almost every case, you could probably leave their bgvs on the final record---that way, if you get an artist thats not on point, you could have em just sing the lead, and maybe just the root note of the bgv's---all you're sweet harmony parts are taken care of...to me thats the best way, cause then if you pitch a demo, and it ends up being cut, the artist can only **** up the song so much...at least the bgv's can stay somewhat like the a&r's and the artist remember them...


SO MANY times a song sounds great with the demo singer, but then the artist screws it up by not giving it the right performance---this at least marginalizes that

If there is a budget for it I prefer to use different singers for the backgrounds.
As nice as it is for singers to come up with their own parts I still need to check them against the changes to make sure there are no bad rubs. Unfortunatly there are more singers out there who have riffs but can only stack thirds regardless of the chord changes ala Beyonce and Crazy In Love

[nd33]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

Maestro I feel u, I've been in a session with a VERY well known songstress who absolutesly couldnt sing with headphones on

What do you do in dealing with singers who are no good with headphones on?






Nate

[con?one]

Originally Posted by nd33

What do you do in dealing with singers who are no good with headphones on?

as in no headphones at all?? do you give them a metronome or something??
i've dealt with people wh don't want to hear themseles... but that's pretty common

[AlphaDingo]

Use a mic in figure of 8 pattern, set up a speaker in the null spot of the mic, revese the phase of the mic, and play a track (guitar, piano) that is the final and will be used in the song and hit record. Be sure to keep the volume as low as possible through the speaker. Since the phase is reversed, you won't hear the piano or guitar through the vox part while the mix is playing. If you also cut out the parts where there is no singing, you should be OK.

That's pretty much how they did it. She records in the control room sometimes as well with the monitors on low level.

I guess its a case of them being used to singing live or something


It's a rare case but it happens

[babyface_finsta]

Does anyone have a link with possibly a diagram for achieving this?

Originally Posted by AlphaDingo

Use a mic in figure of 8 pattern, set up a speaker in the null spot of the mic, revese the phase of the mic, and play a track (guitar, piano) that is the final and will be used in the song and hit record. Be sure to keep the volume as low as possible through the speaker. Since the phase is reversed, you won't hear the piano or guitar through the vox part while the mix is playing. If you also cut out the parts where there is no singing, you should be OK.

[Flymax]

I think it's important to realize who you're dealing with and where they're at that particular moment. I record/produce a lot of singers, R n B, Rock mostly. You might get one day or night when the singer is in the zone and they's drop all the vx in in a very short time.

[illynoise]

Dummy track for main vocal, do the backgrounds, get them right, go back over the main get that right......do the chorus (sometimes do this first, because it takes longer) with the same process.

I portion out the song in pieces and then at the end I would suggest going over the whole song and do adlibs on a couple of tracks.

If something needs to be sung a certain way I will go in the booth and sing it with them. It helps people sometimes when they know the producer/engineer knows what they are telling them is absolutely wrong or right.

I work with a lot of very bad singers, and some of them actually make it out of the studio with a decent track, but it is frustrating that people think that they sound great in their head, but horrible on the mic.

BaseJase
Illynoise

[AlphaDingo]

Here you go. Fresh from the Photoshop.

[Zacchino]

I've heard Jamiroquai was recording this way alot.
I still didn't get how you guys do this magical trick, but this sounds really tricky ^^

Maestro, have you ever recorded artists this way ?
BTW, just an OT question, what are the best headphones for singers in your opinion ?

TIA

[themaestro]

Originally Posted by Zacchino

I've heard Jamiroquai was recording this way alot.
I still didn't get how you guys do this magical trick, but this sounds really tricky ^^

Maestro, have you ever recorded artists this way ?
BTW, just an OT question, what are the best headphones for singers in your opinion ?

TIA

nope...just the thought of music playing out loud while i'm recording sends chills down my spine!!! im just blessed that i havent worked with anyone who i would have to employ that technique with!

[con?one]

Originally Posted by Zacchino

BTW, just an OT question, what are the best headphones for singers in your opinion ?

TIA

i TRY to get some people on DJ headphones (like the Technics) because they hug the shit outta thier head and there's no leakage... but most times i use the Fostex T20RP. good headphones, and the cord's replacable