Difference in sound between the MPC60 and MPC4000?

[RIZ Records]

I tried searching but i cant really find a direct comparison between the two. Im thinking of grabbing either a MPC60 or MPC4000 or both and i was wondering what the difference is on the sound they give drums? Also the difference in sequencer feel.

Would it be a cool idea to use the 60 to process drums through them load them back up in the 4000 once processed?

[dtheone]

Originally Posted by RIZ Records

I tried searching but i cant really find a direct comparison between the two. Im thinking of grabbing either a MPC60 or MPC4000 or both and i was wondering what the difference is on the sound they give drums? Also the difference in sequencer feel.

Would it be a cool idea to use the 60 to process drums through them load them back up in the 4000 once processed?

The Mpc 60 is a dated machine; it was great for it's time; the MPC 4000 exceeds all specs as well as sound quality from the mpc 60. Go with the 4000.

[electric]

the ad converter on each unit puts its own sonic "signature" on what you put through it. the 4000 will be much more transparent as it is modern adc. however the mpc60 is 12 bit and around 40khz sampling rate. (actually cant remember exact samp rate). this will put a more obvious lo-fi color to what you put into it. its really like an effect. can make material sound like old vinyl. problem is you cant reverse it. my suggestion is to pick up an akai s900 or s950 (plus they have a variable sample rate from like 10k to 40k or something like that which gives you more control how much you want to "dirty up" the drums )on the cheap just so you can get the lofi sound when you want it and also get a modern box like the 2500/1000/4000/2000xl for more hifi sampling. this gives you best of both worlds.

you can get the mpc60 sound without buying the mpc60(a la s950). however some drum programmers swear by the sequencer in the 60 also. if you dont care about the sequencer i would do what i suggested above.

good luck

electric

[RIZ Records]

Thanks guys for the advice. Actually i really do care about the sequencer as its goign to play a major part in my sound. Also i dont sample. Im not saying there's anything wrong with it but at this point im trying to fully compose my beats and get paid. Does the mpc 60 really give a lo-fi type of "effect" sound on drums? I plan to start with clean clear drum samples in the first place but id like some nice colour to my drums. I kinda like the clean vintage sound. Not too clean but not too dirty. Some attitude. I should also state that im most likely going to be using an Aurora Audio GTQ2mk3 DI Pre/EQ, and stereo distressors. Which box would compliment the outboard gear more? I just dont want the sequencer to sound too stiff. Also like my drums pretty open, not muddy and closed.

Thx!

[electric]

hmmm....imo if you want drums that have attitude (and by attitude i mean different or unique that also really stand out in an arrangement) you are going to have to either

1) sample (find nice hits on old records and combine them with others to make your own)
or
2) record live drums through the audio chain you mentioned. (good mic pre/mic/compressor)

you can get drums that have attitude with either box this way. (60/4000 or any sampler). the key ingredient is the sounds you are working with in the first place. the outboard chain you mentioned will serve you really well. sounds like you are totally on the right path.

i also dont get too caught up in the sequencer hype stuff. the sequencers in all of the akai units are great. i use manual timing for my drums quite a bit and dont rely on the timing algorithms to make them push/pull the beat. they all have real time samplers that are rock solid. period.

again my suggestion would be a modern sampler/sequencer and then purchase an older sampler for some lo-fi goodness when you need it. i think this is more versatile for your $$$. if $$$ aint a factor then get both . if you try the mpc60 and dont like it you should be able to resell for about what you paid for unless you pay way too much.

other ways to get crunchy old school sound is the old ensoniq samplers/emu samplers or effect boxes like a yamaha psx-100. (which doesnt go for more than 150.00 or so used. ) i run tracks in the mix through a psx sometimes just to "darken" them up a bit. works great. plus you get all the other effects that it has built in too.

again all my opinion. sounds like you'll be fine whatever you do. make a decision and start making music.

peace.
electric

[Relax]

Originally Posted by RIZ Records

I tried searching but i cant really find a direct comparison between the two. Im thinking of grabbing either a MPC60 or MPC4000 or both and i was wondering what the difference is on the sound they give drums? Also the difference in sequencer feel.

Would it be a cool idea to use the 60 to process drums through them load them back up in the 4000 once processed?

BOTH!!!! for drums and sequencing only i would definately go with the 60. makes the drums bang and has a dope sequencer. the 4000 will make your drums cleaner and is also a dope sequencer. the downside of the 60 is the limited sample time which wont effect you cause you dont sample.

[dtheone]

There is a huge misconception about the sequencer; it is not different. The mpc 4000 sequencer is the same; if you tweak the swing setting 55-65 percent (this is a real good setting at normal tempos 90bpm - 125bpm) you will get an even more amazing swing than the mpc 60 and 3000.

The MPC 60, 60II and the 3000 were designed in conjunction with Roger Linn (akai is the other half) Because they abandoned putting his signature on the machine (all it is is a signature) for the 2000 and on; people swear something happened to the sequencer; What actually happened is the programming and how close the sequencer shifted the notes to perfection when quantizing. This is what people consider to be the change but can't put their finger on what it is (so in essence it did change because they perfected the quantization) If you don't quantize your drum patterns the issue is moot; no quantize is no quantize; it's live playing; your notes don't get shifted to 16ths or triplets etc....

So what happened is that the sequencers perfected the quantized notes to the grid; if you take a track you did on the mpc 60 or 3000 and sample the whole sequence as a wav file in your computer; truncate it to a loop in recycle and save the midi data; then re-programm (play) the same on your 4000; record it as wav into pc and also truncate to loop in recycle and save the midi data; you will see a difference in midi/drum edit mode (in any sequencer) and how the notes were shifted. (even if both were played with 16th note quantize setting) The 4000 will be dead on the grid and the 60 or 3000 will be close but not dead on the grid.
This is why programs like recycle became so popular because you can steal the groove from any loop - sequence and save it; use it for a template. I have the mpc 60 groove templates for cubase; honestly I don't use them. I know how to work the cubase sequencer (and now pro tools 7) to get the same swing as I got on my mpc. Reason 3 is especially good with this as well.

If you're only in love with the sequencer and must have it; then get the Akai ASQ10 (this was the spin-off sequencer only section of the mpc with no pads) The ASQ10 is very hard to find used.

My advice is to just sit and get acquainted with any sequencer you work with; look at the swing settings; mess around with the percentages; I found the 55 - 65 percent setting on all akai sequencers after the mpc 3000 to be 100 percent identical and even exceed the mpc 60 and 3000. The swing setting on Reason gives you the same result. I love toyng with the grooves and experimenting with rex files.

Also you gotta make sure your rex files are rexed properly; sometimes you have to draw or re-draw certain attack points that recycle doesn't catch. If you miss one of those points or get lazy just to have a complete loop; u will definitley notice a poorly rexed file when you try to sequence it in another program.
Recycle or Beat Detective (pro tools) are a must!
Peace Dave

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by dtheone

The Mpc 60 is a dated machine; it was great for it's time; the MPC 4000 exceeds all specs as well as sound quality from the mpc 60. Go with the 4000.

Well, it depends on what you are going for sound quality wise. If you are one of those people who are going for the most pristine sounds possible...get the 4000. If you like your drums to sound a bit lo-fi...which is a good thing at times...get the MPC60. IMHO...for the price of a 4000...you can get the 60 and the 2500.

[dtheone]

You can dirty up a sound real good in the mpc4000. There are settings for it.

If you sample in a dirty sound str8 into the 4000; you'll get an ass cracking boosted up sample of that same sound. Trust me; the 4000 sound engine is incredible.

[RIZ Records]

Sup Ya'll? Thanks for the participation in this thread so far. I dont think i want my drums to sound lo-fi. I think mabye the MPC 4000 would be a nice combo along with the outboard gear i mentioned because the 4000 has a nice clean sound engine from what you guys are saying and the outboard gear i mentioned can acheive a nice warm clean kinda vintage sound if i handle them right. The only thing that im still kind of worried about is the 4000's sequencer. I really dont like my stuff exactly on the grid %100 and sounding stiff, i like it a bit loose but still on time. Can any more 4000 user's elaborate and confirm on this? Cant i always note shift the notes a few numbers back?


Thx!

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by dtheone

You can dirty up a sound real good in the mpc4000. There are settings for it.

If you sample in a dirty sound str8 into the 4000; you'll get an ass cracking boosted up sample of that same sound. Trust me; the 4000 sound engine is incredible.

Yes, I understand...but it is still different than older machines like the SP-1200 and the MPC60. Why dod you think these machines are still going for alot today? It is there particular sound that cannot be duplicated. It sure is hell ain't do to the amount of sampling time.

I own both the 4000 and the MPC60II. My MPC 60II was caught in hurricane katrina and damaged. I will not be replacing it or having it repaired (which would basically be replacing).

THE 4000 is by far the best drum machine that Akai has released thus far.

Use it along with a mac running aksys and bias peak and you will be in drum heaven. IT does almost everything one would need in a drum machine EVER
And it sounds great!

[dtheone]

Originally Posted by jsrockit

Yes, I understand...but it is still different than older machines like the SP-1200 and the MPC60. Why dod you think these machines are still going for alot today? It is there particular sound that cannot be duplicated. It sure is hell ain't do to the amount of sampling time.

on the sp1200 and mpc 60;
The reason is because of the lack of knowledge. Why do you think more and more of them turn up used?

To answer the other question; the mpc 4000 has the swing feature where it shifts the notes off grid. DUDE TRUST ME. Go to your local music dealer and mess with it.
I would describe the sound of the MPC 4000 as Strong more than clean. It is clean sounding but the quality of the sound is tremendous and very phatt and thick sounding.

[RIZ Records]

Thanks for the further info guys i appreciate it.

Damn no ssl yet, sorry to hear about your 60! Atleast you're alright though.


dtheone, i will definetly take your advice on the 4000 aswell. Its sounds like a great peice of gear and there's a lot of flexibility too, plus it sounds great.


I think i've made my decision and im going to go with the 4000. Im going to try to pick up a used blue version off of ebay.

You guys can still comment if you want and i appreciate it, but im going to go ahead with the 4000. Thanks a lot guys for your help and wise words! Peace!

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by dtheone

on the sp1200 and mpc 60;
The reason is because of the lack of knowledge. Why do you think more and more of them turn up used?

To answer the other question; the mpc 4000 has the swing feature where it shifts the notes off grid. DUDE TRUST ME. Go to your local music dealer and mess with it.
I would describe the sound of the MPC 4000 as Strong more than clean. It is clean sounding but the quality of the sound is tremendous and very phatt and thick sounding.

I'm not arguing the merits of the 4000...believe me. I'm just saying that some people prefer a lo-fi sound...and it isn't due to lack of knowledge. I use a 1000 personally...so I'm not using an older machine.

[WideawakE]

I don't think the 4K sounds that good at all man, I mean it's dope because it's is an all in one type deal, kind of a computer in itself...but it's no 60

[RIZ Records]

WideawakE, so u dont think the 4000 sounds good eh?

Damn, can i ask u guys one more question? Sorry, but how does the MPC 3000 sound compared to the 4000? Just your guys opinions. What i find with the 3000 is that it sounds great but to my ears its lacking a bit of top end. Mabye its my room or the way i have my monitors set. But yeah i was hoping the 4000 was going to sound as good as the 3000 but with a lil more top end. I know its has a lot to do with the way i eq/compress/process,ect my drums, but im just trying to get an idea and again sorry for the wack questions. I currently own a 3000. Should i keep it instead of getting a 4000? Im going to go to Long & McQaude and bring my 3000 in and do an A/B test between the 3000 and 4000 and hear for myself. What i dig about the 4000 is i can load my whole custom drum library in there and i can preview the sounds while my sequence is playing. I can do that right with the push of a button without having to load them in the pads right? Can someone post a beat they did with the 4000?

[kingofswing]

Originally Posted by WideawakE

I don't think the 4K sounds that good at all man, I mean it's dope because it's is an all in one type deal, kind of a computer in itself...but it's no 60

I have owned 3 mpc 1000's (since Dec 2003), 2 MPC 4000's (White, and New Blue which i currently own), and also own the MPC 2000XL MCD. I have also hired an MPC 3000 LE from a UK hire shop for 1 night. I am an MPC Fanatic.

In short, this is what I think:

MPC 1000 - Nice little Blue Box, clean punchy sound, and can be quite crisp. The let down for me after going through 3 of these, was the pads not being reliable or inspiring as the traditional mpc's.

MPC 2000-XL - a standard 96 ppqn MPC with all the great things that makes an mpc famous...the swing, the nice bouncy pads and its aggressive sound. I love the sound of the XL. It had this rugged sound, with a pikey midrange and cuts thru mixes quite well, with out any muddyness on the bottom end. Its not a crisp sound, but different to the others in the MPC range. I picked this one up a year ago and love it as an alternative to the mpc 1000 (which i ended up selling after 3 swaps over a 3 month period).

The MPC 4000 - The Daddy. This beast is lovely in all aspects. I owned a white model back in 2002 (when it launched), but sold it after a year due to bugs, and moved onto software samplers instead.

I then missed the swing and the high resolution of the 4000 that i had to get it back. So last year i bought the new 'plus' version in blue (which also looks cool). This machine has to be the best MPC ever IMO. The timing is super tight and it has never crashed on me once (OS 1.71).

The timing for me is its best feature, i love it for its accuracy and mechanical timing when using 1/16th without swing. With various swings settings suited to varying tempos, i get the perfect feel with the 4k. I have also owned an MV 8000, which i returned, for many reasons (but im not going to mention them).

The sound of the 4k is super crisp and clean (nothing like the other mpcs, although the MPC 1000 and 2005 may not be far off). Its has a stunning dynamic range compared to the old skool mpcs, and it certainly makes your drums stand out. In my opinion the MPC 4000 is ideal for clynical drum programming, and sounds very professional.

Also, the sequencer feel is also a little different IMO compared to all the MPC's. Without getting too complex, the 4000 proccessor and resolution is alot more powerful than the others, which makes up for this subtle subjective difference (again IMO). I have also tested this (like somebody above has already mentioned using rex files), by creating my own groove templates in Logic (via 2 bar MPC sequenced drum loops) to analyse each waveform to where individual hits fall (early, on spot or later) with the same swing (on and off / 1/16th) settings, with the same samples in each of my mpc's.

The MPC 3000 LE:

Found it very slow to use (not the machines fault, but i got spoilt by the modern mpc's). The pads felt the same as my 2000XL. The sound was lovely, but not better IMO then the mpc's. They all have a difference in sound, no doubt, and the 3k had a smooth sound but not crisp. It was a bit lofi without being agressive, and didnt quite have the top end that my 4k gives me. The pad response is very good and the output is loud and definately knocks a little harder than the newer mpc's (including the 4k).

The 3k sequencer felt the same as my 2000xl to be all honest. But it did not sound the same (as mentioed above). the sequencer is tight and has a funky feel to it, just like the mpc 2000/xl, but IMO its not as tight as the 4k. The 4k is another level when it comes to tightness of drums (but thats my opinion).

Hope all this helps.

[RIZ Records]

kingofswing, thanks a LOT for taking all that time to break it down for me. That was mad cool of you.

Does the sequencer sound too stiff on the 4000 when quantizing at 1/16th notes with no swing? I dont want it to feel like stiff a standard software sequencer. I want that MPC magic feel. Cant i lower the ppqn resolution to 96 instead of 960 if i want on the 4000? The way it sounds i think the sound of the mpc4000 would go good with the outboard gear i want to purchase ( Aurora Audio GTQ2 & Distressors). This way i can try to acheive a clean/vintage sound. I guess the best way i can describe it is clean clear vintage, but that has all to do with me tweaken them knobs! Thanks again kingofswing that was cool!

[WideawakE]

cool, I'm just saying there is a reason why some of the best and most influential producers used and still use the 60 or 3000. I just got a 3000 LE and the disk drive is bad so I haven't had the time to mess with it and I'm by far not a professional. I just know what my ears tell me and there is something to be said about limiting your options and using your ears to make music. When I make music with my 60 I don't have the option of loading a 100 drum sounds at one time, so I listen to the music and say hey, what sound do I have that will work here. Try to find that sound and make it fit the way I envisioned it.

I dunno if this is making sense...it's like when I had fruity or my friends who have fruity, they throw all sorts of sounds together, all sorts of effects blah blah blah and don't tweak the shit they have so it sounds garbage. I guess i just love the method of making a beat on a 60 and love the sequencer, sound and layout...no menus, no BS. word is there will be a new OS for it too, (there is already a new 3.16 for the 3K) with sequencing down to 1/4 notes and up to some crazy number plus resampling and some other tidbits....gotta be great to still get new OS's for a machine that old

It has a great sound too, tons of punch, plus the build quality is nice...I'd love to work with a 4K for a month or so though and see what's up. I have friends who love them and those who sold it ASAP...the 2500 is crushing in the looks department though, it's just mean

[dtheone]

IMO; the next best MPC besides the 4000 is the MPC 3000. This machine had an earth shattering sound as well (the sound engine and quality of the outputs was definitley top notch)

FYI; using 16th note Quantize without swing on any machine is pretty much going to stick you mechanically to the grid. Most of the sequencers out in the mid 80's to mid 90's weren't perfect sequencers (the asr 10 being the worst; not in quality but in accuracy) Since the beginning of time; humans adapt and master lifes imperfections and proceed to evolve (let me close my bible; lol)
Shit; i was used to the sp1200, the the mpc 60 and the asr-x. When I got the mpc 2000/XL I scored two sp1200's (550 a piece) cause I thought i was missing something. And after sequencing one or two tracks; I got rid of both of them in less than a week (@ 850 a piece; one katt drove down from baltimore to pick the sp up)
That's when I realized how imperfect the sequencers were on 16th note quantize; and with the mpc 2000xl all i had to do was twist the swing to about 55 percent @ 16th note quantize and this is identical to both the sp1200 and mpc 60 at 16th note. Twist it up a bit higher to around 62 - 65 and you'll exceed the feel of both the 60 and the sp1200. The mpc 60 has a bit better than lo-fi sound (12bit 40khz) This seems to be the problem with everyone; the mpc 4000 along with most of the recording software out there can only do 8 bit 32khz (which is not even lo-fi; it's pretty much unusable) The sp 1200 whom the Hip Hop community constantly hails as the holy grail of hip hop and early house music and was only 12 bit 22khz. The akai in my opinion always had a devastating sound engine from the introduction of the mpc 60 and always set the standard in quality to be followed. The sequencer was much better than the sp1200 and the pads to this day are the one thing that has kept the machine so poplular; the sp1200's buttons were ****ing disturbing to me; good lord; it's like plastic on springs; the clickety clack noise they made drove me nuts.
The reason these machines were/are famous was because of the people that used them; which many forget were making music at the time these machines came out; as this was the latest technology available to them; they snatched them up and made hits; much like we are trying to do with the mpc 4000 that is now what (3 yrs old?) there is a competing drum box (the roland box) along with a multitude of software options. As far as hardware; it's the mpc 4000 hands down since it came into the market with all of it's OS flaws (which contradict all these so called old schoolers trying to keep it real; yeah ok; keep it real and bitch about a buggy OS lacking features that the old boxes would never have and could never even come close to)

I've spent a great deal of time defending the choice of the mpc 4000; I must confess though and tell you I no longer have it. The M-audio trigger finger has taken it's place along with Reason (re-wired to protools or cubase) and three of it's rack instruments (redrum, dr rex and nnxt) the possibilities are mind boggling!
I do miss the mpc 4000. The ability to do everything inside that box (aside from vocals) without touching the computer is heaven to me.

Peace
Dave

PS
I've got some serious sound libraries for the Akai Mpc 3000 and up that I took the time to build and also converted planet phatt, Mo Phatt and all the emu sound modules into mpc format (not the 60) and also halion, kontakt and reason nnxt formats. The planet phatt and mo phatt have the exact same sounds the original modules had along with the beats and demo presets.

[WideawakE]

I think that's what I'm saying, if you want a 4000, you'd be better off and probably save money by going with a soft sampler and sequencer. I can't really discern an mpc 4000 beat from a software beat...I can for the 1200, 60 (sometimes), 2000xl etc. most of the time because if you know how to sample on these things they'll give you a quaity not achievable as easily or quickly or at all with a computer program.

Man let's stop the MADNESS.

IF I made a beat on EVERY MPC and mixed them down to 2 tracks
You wouldnt be able to tell me which was which.

I used to be the biggest defender of softsynths and adamantly against the MPC4000. I felt like GURU had an amaziing sounding engine as a soft synth (because its engine didnt effect the sound) And I was gonna stay with GURU and sell my 2000xl because of the quickness of having my sounds on my mac HD. THEN I TRIED an MPC 4000.

For me it gave better integration with my computer
Great sounding engine
and The Workflow of not having to mouse around and reduce/select windows to make music

I wouldnt use a 4k with the older 0S. versions and I believed it to be buggy before I got it. BUT with the current OS. I have NEVER had a crash (knock on wood)

It prompted me to do a thread called

MPC 4000 IS THE SHIT.

[dtheone]

No SSL Yet:

Good shit man; good shit; I actually just got put on to Guru and i'm lovin it. For alot of different reasons (not just making beats) I do extreme audio edit remixes and chopping up grooves is all part of that.

The Mpc 4000 is definitley the shit. When the budget permits; I'm definitley getting another one. It's a great sequencer; the sound engine is incredible and as far as hardware spec it's up there with the best (software too)
The aksys software makes life so damn easy when building kitts.

This is the reason I consider the MPC 4000 the missing link (between hardware and software) if there is a piece of hardware to own (and I like the access virus as a harware piece to because of all the strange sounds you can make with that sucker and it has great presets too) it would be the mpc 4000. It would be great to see them develop a better software companion for it; I'd like to see an akai DAW software where you can run tons of VST plugins and instruments and use the MPC's sequencer engine. Have the Mpc act as a multi channel soundcard (with mic pre's; at least 8 minimum along with the excellent output options they already have) along with the midi;
The end all be all would be to create a software that will allow the mpc 4000 to be re-wired to any DAW.

I can freak my M-audio trigger finger with dr rex, redrum and the NNXT though; the programable knobs (eight of them) and sliders (4 of them) put me right at home as if I were using the mpc 4000. The Only thing is that I have to do a little extra work to get that thick meaty sound the 4000 gives your samples. The Pultec EQ plugin bundle for Pro Tools KICKS MAJOR ASS and adds that meat!

Peace
Dave