I really need some help taming my vocals (HipHop)

[Killah_Trakz]

ummmm the chain is Rode Ntk to mackie 1202 vlz pro to Delta 44 @ 32bit 88.2khz to Samplitude 8. Its a rough mix. On lead vocals i used the Analog Suite, UltraFunk delay, Tc Native Reverb and The Blue Tubes FA 770. The addlibs have blockflish compressors.

The songs are on this site http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?songs=11749&T=9790<<<< the songs uploaded in 2006.

Also im so scared to touch eq's. I'm just looking for tips to enhance my mixing capabalities.

[lpuma]

Originally Posted by Killah_Trakz

Also im so scared to touch eq's. I'm just looking for tips to enhance my mixing capabalities.

try dat kinda eq usin ya ears to find da best settings for ya voice:

high pass 100 hz
+2 db 200 hz /
-2/4 db 350 hz /
+ 4/6 db 2 khz/
+ 2 (or more for mo air) 5 khz

[The Marrvel]

Dude, with the chain you're using, your vocals sound pretty damn good to me, especially using the preamps on the Mackie. What don't you like about them?

[Killah_Trakz]

thing is i dont want too over compress my vocals to where they sound squashed, and i have a few peaks here and their. Also when its time for me too touch an eq i freak out.

[The Marrvel]

Originally Posted by Killah_Trakz

thing is i dont want too over compress my vocals to where they sound squashed, and i have a few peaks here and their. Also when its time for me too touch an eq i freak out.

If you like the way that your vocals sound now, you can always manually bring individual peaks down without having to compress them.

You're doing something correctly because that's the best quality that I've heard on that kind of vocal chain.

As far as EQ, just use your ears and use it very sparingly. I tend to cut frequencies more than I boost them, but in general, I don't really mess with much eq on vocals.

[Killah_Trakz]

thanks i guess its not broken lol.

[Eager2Know]

Originally Posted by Killah_Trakz

ummmm the chain is Rode Ntk to mackie 1202 vlz pro to Delta 44 @ 32bit 88.2khz to Samplitude 8. Its a rough mix. On lead vocals i used the Analog Suite, UltraFunk delay, Tc Native Reverb and The Blue Tubes FA 770. The addlibs have blockflish compressors.

The songs are on this site http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?songs=11749&T=9790<<<< the songs uploaded in 2006.

Also im so scared to touch eq's. I'm just looking for tips to enhance my mixing capabalities.

Something that might help is a low-cut. I always use it and it helps awesome. The low-part of a voice is very minimal, most of the frequencies are in the mids and highs. Try a lowcut about 90-140 hz (depending on the voice), this should help to "clean up" at least the lows.

[The Marrvel]

Originally Posted by Eager2Know

Something that might help is a low-cut. I always use it and it helps awesome. The low-part of a voice is very minimal, most of the frequencies are in the mids and highs. Try a lowcut about 90-140 hz (depending on the voice), this should help to "clean up" at least the lows.

Co-sign on the lowcut fliter. Also, I'd eq after the vocals are recorded in software and not on the mixer because you can't fix it if you record it eq'ed.

[con?one]

Originally Posted by The Marrvel

If you like the way that your vocals sound now, you can always manually bring individual peaks down without having to compress them.

You're doing something correctly because that's the best quality that I've heard on that kind of vocal chain.

As far as EQ, just use your ears and use it very sparingly. I tend to cut frequencies more than I boost them, but in general, I don't really mess with much eq on vocals.

i agree... with automation, normalizing, etc, you can calm the peaks down without having to compress as much... i do it all the time, leave life in the vocal

[illacov]

I used to do strictly plug ins on vox and it was OK, but having a nice collection of character compressors for your voice or just one signal chain that you LOVE for vox is better than spending hours on tryin to find that one plug in.

Yes you dont want to squash your voice, BUT then again, we usually hear Digital compression and this is why we avoid squashed. However if you heard a nice hardware compressor with loads of gain reduction and your voice still sounds clear and now its just "punchier" and "phatter" then you've saved yourself some obvious steps in the DAW as well as some cpu usage. The only thing you need after a compressor for vocals is a limiter to catch the peaks the compressor cant.

You can use something like L2 (waves) for this or you can use something like George Yung's W1 limiter which is free. Do a search on it. The best part on some hardware compressors is they cost less than half the price of a plug in.

My dbx 163x only cost me 45 dollars man

check out my mp3 in the mp3 show and tell forum. Im not spamming, but you'll hear our vocal chain. Its a Rode NT1a to a Rane MS1B to a dbx 163x with the slider on the M in the word "More" yes its a HUGE amount of Gain Reduction so it should be SUPER Squashed, but its NOT. I love this sound on vocals, and if you notice so do most engineers. However, I have begun experimenting with different settings on my hardware compressor, but it also gives me a better vibe for experimenting with different mic distances and placement than before when i only had plug ins which would be after the fact.

Anyways
You should give it a shot, something like the dbx 163x can be found in places like Ebay for various prices as well as places like Daddys Junky Music and Music Go Round.

Peace
illumination

[Killah_Trakz]

thats next on my list after the rme fireface and the rode classic 2 hahaha.

[illacov]

My mans at work he was strictly on some why buy hardware when you got plug ins that sound good too? Then he heard the difference that dbx made on our vocals and he startin shiftin his position on the whole gear issue.
Eventually he handed me some dollars and was like Please get me one of those dbx's.

Now Im no Gear Guru, I learned about the dbx 163x from Dave Pensado on this Website to be exact!

As much as he is a ITB guy he still gave one juicy piece of advice and damn was he ever right man!

I know you're going to get that new interface and microphone, but yo its only a 45 dollar purchase to cop that compressor man. Your recordings will definately sound clearer and cleaner with that RME, but damn Ive heard your recordings before and you are getting decent sound quality at the moment anyways, so I say improve your setup on the treatment side of things, which is to get your vocal chain sounding really good to match the caliber of your beats! Then when you get your RME, you dont have to worry about an old problem coming back to bite you. Especially when its an additional 45 bucks! Thats a week worth of smoking cigarettes or a weekend at the movies.

Think about it, now my mans is talkin about he wants a mixer. This is due to me starting a summing setup at my crib and he doesnt want to be left back in the stone ages.

Haha

Peace
Illumination

[Killah_Trakz]

'Decent is cool', but i want too know if i spent that kinda money and my ish sounds retarded then its my own fault for the f up. But i got that comp on lizzock. Anywho from yall point of view if the vocals are nice and all you guys r saying to fix it via locut then i might as well keep what i got n finish use it n upgrade l8tah, but only if you guys feel that the quiality of the vox are on a good point b4 the comps n stuff.

[The Marrvel]

yo Illumination,

u really like that dbx comp huh? seems like it might be a little harsh on the vox. in your opinion, does it sound better than say...the waves rcomp?

[illacov]

Sorry for the spam, but peep the vocals

Signal chain is a Rode NT1a -> Rane MS1B -> dbx 163x -> EMU 0404.

http://illacov.onlinestoragesolution...s/grownman.mp3

its an mp3, but it still shows you what things CAN sound like, BTW this is with at least 6db to 8 db of Gain Reduction so its pretty heavy compression, at least in digital terms, but when it comes to analog thats fine and dandy. You can ease up the compression on the dbx for a more "open" sound, but thats not always the ticket for every song. If you notice Kanye's vocals on Diamonds are Forever are pretty punchy, this is usually achieved with a good deal of compression on the vox.

In terms of how vocals sound compared to Ren Comp or Ren Vox in WAVES, I would say that I prefer the dbx over Waves, for the simple fact that unless you plan on getting the crack of Waves Bundle, which is FREE...you're going to be out at least 4 or 5 hundred dollars when you could spend 45 bucks and get classic hip hop compression. Plus, the dbx 16x whatever compressors work on more things than vocals, how about kicks, snares and bass?

Great all in one compressor with plenty of uses, not the only go to compressor in the book but if you followed it with a very fast limiter plug in or hardware limiter you got yourself one hell of a vocal chain!

I downloaded those new songs of yours. I like what you did with the music, but I think that some of your vocals on the track all sound very clear very open, which works in SOME situations, but in others you may want to be able to have that nice compressed vocal sound so that you can sort of sit your vocals back in the mix and still have them present themselves nicely. Also your choruses are very similar in sound quality to how your verses sound which is something I try to avoid.

The verse is supposed to have a distinct sound compared to the chorus, this helps the listener to differentiate between the two. If you listen to most of the Aftermath stuff Dre is pretty good at maintaining this formula. Wu Tang Clan has this idea pretty straight too.. Most times it can be as simple as having Reverb on the verse and none on the chorus or simply put, having some of the highs cut down moreso on the verses and then having the chorus be a little bright compared to the verse.

I hope you dont think Im nuts for saying so, but those are some basics.

Either way you may or may not like the vocal sound we have going on this track, but the dbx does a good deal to warm up some of the newer Hyped cardiod mics like Rodes and Marshalls that are easily obtained. That NTK does have a VERY good sound to it, so now its just a matter of you experimenting with the compression you're applying on it to see what results you can get.

Peace
Illumination

[The Marrvel]

Ohhhh, now I hear it...

Ill, at first I wasn't sure what you were sayin about Killah_Trakz's vocals being 'open' but now I do hear it. I actually like open vocals like his for those breakbeat type of tracks, maybe that's why I praised them so much.

I guess if he eased up on the dbx compression a bit then it could work pretty well. That dbx is an old school comp dude! What, 1986? Might have to check it out. It seems to color the vocals alot though, which I'm not sure if I like. It seems like it could hinder the clarity of my vocals.

I'm a big post compression guy myself. How do you judge the amount of pre-compression for the vocal to fit the track? Do you just keep doing takes at different comp levels through trial and error and keep the one you like?

[illacov]

I just set it once and forget it. To be honest I usually try to smooth out things with heavy limiting if that makes any sense or if the vocal needs to be more OPEN then I can use an Expansion setting on a vst compressor which would be the opposite of a compression setting, it sort of opens things up a bit.

To touch on the whole coloring thing. Transparent compression is a flavor just like colored compression is a flavor. To prefer one over the other for everything is like only eating chocolate all the time. Thats not to say chocolate aint the bomb cuz I love chocolate. However...Its best to have an assortment of flavors to choose from if you can help it. That being said. Alot of records that we grew up listening to if you're into hip hop music, were not big on totally transparent compression for vocals.

And as far as Im concerned when you consider how uncolored audio can sound when its digital in nature IE sounds coming from the computer and not being recorded, you kind of dont want transparent everything like transparent vocals with transparent drums with transparent guitars blah blah blah.

Nothing will stick out and you get 1 dimensional songs.

I have a very bright mike (NT1a) and no amount of eqing is going to give me the results that the dbx does. I have a very IMHO Preamp, the Rane MS1B and the only saving grace I have is the dbx. I personally feel that there is yet to be a plug in that imparts this amount of warmth damn did I just say that? For 45 bucks.

Try 4 to 900 dollars and you've got UAD plug ins. So far Im feeling the colored vocals and to remark on the whole break beat thing, I dont remember too many transparent vocals on breakbeat songs from back in the days. If anything the vocals were more colored than the music so that they kind of edged their way through.

Remember Summertime by Will Smith? His voice was indeed EQed to sit well in the mix, but its pretty colored.

Another song like that is Know the Ledge by Rakim. Theres a bright quality, but its got this punchy colored vibe on his vocals.

I mean go figure hip hop is what you make it, but its cool just to see how much those vintage sounds will further make your voice musically fit into the sonic envelope. Especially if you are going for that sort of organic feel that we get when we hear a dope sample or a hot keyboard riff only wishing for that further boost of authenticity when it comes to our vocals.

I say use the dbx for when you want that gooey punchy feel to your vocals, btw if you turn the compression all the way down the components are STILL doing something to the audio, I A/Bed the vocals with the dbx and without and the dbx is way better at warming shit up than Vintage Warmer or any of those other plugs out there that claim to do the trick. You could just record vocals thru the dbx without compression and have some warmer vocals in the process.

I plan on getting another "Character" compressor in the near future, however so far I cant find anything quite as cheap as the dbx, but I think Im leaning towards a joe meek type opto.

I have a feeling that opto compression was used alot on the vocals on Nas's Godson album and you know how incredible his vocals sounded on some of those songs. Almost like it still was punchy but it smeared the peaks a bit and preserved some of the open feel.


It is worth noting that on Grown Men Talk, this was a close miked recording and not with a big distance between performer and mike.

If we had recorded the same vocals from 6 to 12 inches away it would definately have a different sound. Like I said, mike technique becomes even more of a reality when have a nice hardware compressor at your disposal because it immediately illustrates any changes that positioning makes.

Marrvel, if anything I leave the compressor set the way it is and move the mike around, cuz that definately changes how much compression is applied simply by sheer volume going into the compressor. Think about it.

Either way, get a hardware compressor, Im sure even a Comp 16 from Presonus would give you immediate results transparent or not and convince you that maybe you should get a little low end sluttery on with some cheap compressors that do the trick.

Maybe have a stable of one trick ponies?

Thats what Im shooting for.

Peace
Illumination

[The Marrvel]

Wow Illumination, you've been a great help on these compression tips. Thanks alot. I'll let you know what happens when I grab that dbx. Hell, $45. I'll skip the bar on Friday

[Killah_Trakz]

i see extactly whut your talkin bout since ya first post. Well Rode Mics have always had a bright shine tooo them regardless, and second compression (more so colored ones) add a distinctive sound to tracks that running through them. I'mm one of those i hate too much tube dudes. If i have tubes on mi9c then gimme solid state pre's and vice versa ya know. But all i wasaskin is if the gear that im working with is enuff to pass me to the next grade.

[The Marrvel]

Yo killah, i hear u on that tube mic/tube preamp thing. i had my ntk (which ive since sold) going through an ART MPA Gold. that joint sounded straight buttery, but it didnt really work for the rap thing. right now, i dont even have a condenser. i've just been selling beats and getting very reaquainted with my sm57. i'm looking into grabbing one of those adk mics, either the hamburg or vienna, but we'll see...

how's your room? any type of acoustic treatment?, that might help...

P.S.--Illumination,

I copped that 163x today for 25 bones off ebay. first hardware comp and i'm pretty excited. if it sucks then i guess i can use it as a paperweight

peace,

marrvel

[illacov]

That compressor is good for drums, bass and vocals you cant go wrong with that one!

My big thing right now is settling on which console Im gonna cop next year.

Either a Ramsa or a Toft board or something like that