Just another way to make beats - drums in the seq. arrange window

[RyanR]

When it comes to making beats, it seems a lot of people are using a MPC, Reason or Fruity Loops, or a controller connected to a soft sampler. These are all great tools for making beats. But I rarely read about people importing the drum hits right onto tracks in the arrangement window and programming the beat right there (i.e. in Cubase, Logic, etc.).

So, first . . . I was wondering if anyone else uses this method?

Second, this is just one of many ways to make a beat, but IMO not as discussed as much as alternative approaches. I use this approach often, so I thought I'd share some of the possible advantages to doing it this way (some of this is just general food for production thought as well):

1. Instant access to your entire sample library on HD - and any sample just takes the import command to get in the track.

2. Similar to #1, having all your drum samples on one HD allows you to organize them as a whole, and get to know them over time, allowing quick reference when you know what you want - and since loading time is minimal, you can easily test out different samples quickly (or use something like Drumagog) . . .

3. . . . For example, say your kick has a nice thump, but no knock - so, you pull up a BD with a nice knock and blend it in. But wait - samples whack . . . so import new sample. Oh damn, need to nudge it in time - no problem, double click the hit, adjust the starting marker, close window, move hit until blends good. And it took less than 30 seconds . . . to bring up any hit in your library.

4. Can turn off snap and quickly move samples around for timing changes, selecting groups at a time. Also, adjustable snap point within sample, so that it's possible to leave the beginning of a sample, say the predelay of a snare, and still have the SN lock right on the "5" and "13" when moving it around with snap on.

5. Adjustable amp envelope graphically on screen, for each individual hit. Also quick crossfading options if needed.

6. Can start adjusting sounds (adding effects, EQ, Comp, etc.) instantly. Maybe that BD would be perfect if it was just a little less boxy - or maybe once you throw on a drum buss compressor you don't like the tail of that snare hit anymore - or maybe the sample with the low end rumble (which you keep trying to convince yourself will be fine in the mix) really loses all it's mojo when you start to HPF it. Some people wait to start the mixing process, but I like the results much better when it's considered from step one.

7. Can add effects to any individual hit, then bounce it directly into the project, and put it back onto the same track.

8. Say there is a track you're trying to learn from, so you decide to try and ghost it. (Note: I'm not talking about trying to steal someones style . . . but instead developing your production skills, your ears, and your attention to detail through really breakin down someone elses track). You can import the track into the project, put it above your drums, zoom in and have a great view of where the drum hits are, then try to dup it directly below with your own drum hits. You can also really zoom in to see where those drum hits are actually hitting (and line up your drums sample acurately by turning off snap). Was it what you thought you heard?

9. Groove Templates. Say you find a loop with timing you really like - (in Cubase SX) you can match the track BPM to that of the loop, calculate the hit points of the loop, then create a quantize template from that. Then change back the tempo and snap your drum parts into place. You can take this one step further and create quantize templates for each drum part in the loop (BD, SN, HH, etc.), and build a library over time.

10. The general ability to do all of the above stuff, and common functions, uber fast with custom keycommands.

11. Once you program your drums, if you really like the set you came up with, you can make a pool (in SX) of the audio files for easy recall.


It's a different approach . . . another tool in the arsenal. I've never owned a MPC, but I've played with one quite a few times and liked the pads. I've almost bought one a couple times . . . it would also be handy for live stuff - the method being discussed is primarily studio use.

But the "drum hits straight into the arrangement window" method is very fast and flexible - particularly if you know what you want. If you come up with an idea in your head and you know what you want, you can just program it into the sequencer straight away, without need to play it in.

Now, some may say it will have no feel if you do that . . . but that depends.

One thing is no one said snap has to be on when you program the drum hits. IMO, the more you program with snap off, the better you get at it, and more you notice how to create subtle timing that sounds good. Attention to detail is very important . . . pay attention to what you're hearing in your head, and what that actually looks like in a sequencer window. Once the two are connected, you should be able to program beats very quickly with just a mouse and keycommands - or how about a mouse with keycommands on it, like a Logitech MX518?

Another thing is that a lot of times the drums are actually quantized and the bass, melody parts are not. This gives the illusion that the drums may be jumping around slightly, but it's actually the non-drum parts that were played by hand that create the effect.

Lastly, it allows for experimentation with blends and layers quicker because you don't have to load the sample into anything, just import. I find that all the functions I need to edit the sample are pretty much available right there, and if I need some juice I can always slap on a plugin and add automation. If I know exactly what I want in my drum pattern, IME anything more than this method just adds to the process and takes up more time.


But, having not owned a MPC, perhaps I just don't fully realize what I'm missing out on? I am curious about the timing . . . maybe we could try our own forum test where people try to recreate the famous MPC swing using the same samples? Just an idea . . .


Anyway, this thread isn't meant to be a seq. A vs. seq. B thing - just thought I'd give some tips about one of the lesser mentioned ways of making beats, and hopefully just keep those beat making ideas swirling in my fellow slutz headz!

[blayz2002]

I have in the past used this method and it can work okay with quite straight patterns however I did find it difficult to move stuff around timing wise...but didn't think to turn the snap to grid of..so maybey might give it another go.

[Methlab]

I started off that way. Basicly by putting hits in each channel and moving them around by hand. But I hated it. I prefer to play the drums live on a drum pad. Mostly everything you mention can be done with Battery and a Piano roll..unless I'm missing something?

[PhonoquO]

excellent post dude. i used to program house music drums like that, but now that i'm doing hip hop i think i'll give this method a try, cause i hate the midi sloppiness in sx-even if the beats are quantised and shifted nice in midi, there seems to be way to much slop, so maybe by doing them in audio things will tighten things up a bit. i think i',m going to cop an mpc just for doing drums, cause the feel u get out of them boxes is str8 right off the bat, shit is bouncy.

peace

[derker]

You really should try Guru. You can do most all those things easily in guru with a graphical/sequencer approach. My favorite thing about Guru is that I can make my drum patterns in Guru's standalone platform, and then bring it into ProTools as a plugin. Then I can sequence the patterns using MIDI inside protools, and route out the Kick/Snare/Hat/Perc through seperate 'virtual' outputs into the audio tracks, and bounce it down to actual audio.

Guru's engine seems to be super stable. I've never experienced any drift, its always been rock hard, a la MPC, and the feel is great. If I set the buffer size to be low (when making the patterns) there is no noticeable latency at all. I'm using an Akai MPD along with it to assist in having the 'feel' of a standalone piece of hardware.

Your method, while it might work for you, seems like its alot of work, at least if I understood it correctly. With Guru you have instant access to all the samples on your HD. If you're feeling extra lucky you can even import binary files to experiment with whacked out sounds. Make sure you give the manual a nice read before you dismiss it, because there are lots and lots of features that blow every drum-pattern-making software (and hardware) away, IMO.

[RyanR]

Originally Posted by Methlab

Mostly everything you mention can be done with Battery and a Piano roll..unless I'm missing something?

Well, mostly - It's true using the midi editor for drums is much like editing audio in the arrangement window. But there are some differences . . .

When you program drums via midi you can't see the waveforms of all the hits at the same time. But, I use the waveform information to determine where I want to nudge hits - there can be a large difference in sound when blending two BDs, SNs, etc. just by moving one by milliseconds. Sure, the same thing can be done by ear just by nudging tracks around in the midi editor, but I find its quicker, and I like the results better, with visual feedback.

I dunno . . . . it's really all about speed. I find I can program the drums in about 5-10 minutes everytime using this method . . . and then they are done - I don't need to bounce, I don't need to record them in, they are done. I never had to load up a sampler, I never had to load a kit into the sampler, and my computer resources aren't being consumed by a sampler.

I guess one major reason this is effective for me is because when I walk into my studio to make a beat, I usually know what I want to do. I don't sit down and say "I'm gonna make a beat" - it's more like "I'm gonna make a dirty south beat with a slow tempo, maybe in the 70-75 BPM range, and get that Twista vibe going. I need some 808 drums, a 808-type drop (off the G note probably), and a short clicky 808 HH. Also, how about some tubular bells, a short pizz riff, and maybe another bass part that has some movement, maybe some portomento."

So, before I even start the track, I usually have a good idea of exactly what sounds are going to be used in the track. Thing is, many times the idea in my head is not ready in soft sampler form . . . meaning I don't have all the sounds I will want loaded up into one kit. So, I'd have to load it up, then play it in by hand, and that just takes too much time . . . IME, I will have finished programming the entire drums (5-10 minutes) before I can finish making a soft sampler program with all the hits I want, with the envelopes I want, on the correct keys/pads for playing.


I guess I'm curious as to what advantages people think they gain by using a soft sampler? (besides the fact you can then actually play the drums, which I agree is nice) IME, I found I wasn't doing anything in soft samplers that I couldn't do just as good, and much quicker, in the arrangement window.

[Methlab]

well, for me what you just described i can do in under 2 minutes. I have an 808 tweaked out how I like it preset as a kit in Battery. If I want to use different percussion then what I have loaded, I simply grab another sound from my samples Hard drive and replace. I get the basic idea then when I mix, I will change filters or sounds a little if need be.

I don't think the same way though..like I get my tempo by whats in my head and tapping it out in the tempo track. I never think that Im going to make such and such style beat using such and such sounds in a specific tempo..i just fire up my shit after i either think of a nice bassline, or synth part or drum part, and then write the beat around the main idea.

so that is probably why that works for you and not me, we approach beatmaking differently.

[RyanR]

Originally Posted by derker

You really should try Guru. You can do most all those things easily in guru with a graphical/sequencer approach. My favorite thing about Guru is that I can make my drum patterns in Guru's standalone platform, and then bring it into ProTools as a plugin. Then I can sequence the patterns using MIDI inside protools, and route out the Kick/Snare/Hat/Perc through seperate 'virtual' outputs into the audio tracks, and bounce it down to actual audio.

I have tried Guru . . . it's pretty cool, and I agree, it does a lot of things. But I found most of what it does I can do faster with the other method. I mean, how long does just the above bouncing process take? After you make the drums in Guru, you then need to open up Guru in PT, then recreate the midi for each track, then bounce each track down to audio? I rather bypass that whole process and program the drums exactly in the place they are going to end up anyway.

Originally Posted by derker

Guru's engine seems to be super stable. I've never experienced any drift, its always been rock hard, a la MPC, and the feel is great. If I set the buffer size to be low (when making the patterns) there is no noticeable latency at all. I'm using an Akai MPD along with it to assist in having the 'feel' of a standalone piece of hardware.

I agree - when working with Guru it feels pretty solid to me as well. However, I don't have a MPD to control it . . . I've been thinking about picking one up at Guitar Center and really trying out Guru the way it was meant to be played. But everytime I think about it, I'm afraid it will only slow me down.

Originally Posted by derker

Your method, while it might work for you, seems like its alot of work, at least if I understood it correctly. With Guru you have instant access to all the samples on your HD. If you're feeling extra lucky you can even import binary files to experiment with whacked out sounds. Make sure you give the manual a nice read before you dismiss it, because there are lots and lots of features that blow every drum-pattern-making software (and hardware) away, IMO.

Oh, I'm not dismissing Guru, or any other tool for that matter. I have experience with Reason, Fruity Loops, Guru (kinda), SX (main seq.), PTLE (a little bit), Logic (kinda - spent 5 months learning it then they annouced their perm. switch to mac - bastards), many soft samplers (I use Kontakt 2 A LOT), and many soft synths (IK stuff, EWQL stuff, Stylus RMX, Plugsound, etc., etc.) just to name some. They all have their place and are useful tools. I have my preferences, but I don't discount any of them.

The reason I continue to use the said method (I woudn't really call it "my" method, as it's just one method I use, although the most common), is because nothing else is as fast from start to finish for programming drums (usually 5 to 15 minutes). I use the method because it requires the least amount of work, and maintains the best sound quality throughout the process, until the track is done. Heh, I guess thats what makes the world go round . . . for you it "seems like its alot of work", for me it's the method which requires the least amount of work.

I admit I am not an expert at Guru, and did not master all the features. So, I was wondering if you could fill me in on the features you feel "blow every drum-pattern-making software (and hardware) away". What are the specific things it does that make you feel it is unique? Specifically, what things can Guru do that can not be done by the method in question?

This is an honest question . . . one reason I posted this thread was because I actually want someone to convince me of the advantages of programming drums another way. I hear a lot of talk about MPCs timing, but that's just about the only thing that really makes me want to get a MPC (besides having the pads).

[derker]

Originally Posted by RyanR

I mean, how long does just the above bouncing process take? After you make the drums in Guru, you then need to open up Guru in PT, then recreate the midi for each track, then bounce each track down to audio?

Nope! I just open PT in my new session, enter in the tempo into PT, open up the plugin and assign the K/S/H/P to individual audio tracks, and bounce! If I want to sequence different patterns all I have to to is make a MIDI track, and enter in the notes that correspond to the pattern. All the MIDI data that need to be entered is 1 note per pattern change. I have customized my Guru so I couldn't tell you which notes are the defaults but they are all in the manual and really really easy to do.

I admit I am not an expert at Guru, and did not master all the features. So, I was wondering if you could fill me in on the features you feel "blow every drum-pattern-making software (and hardware) away". What are the specific things it does that make you feel it is unique? Specifically, what things can Guru do that can not be done by the method in question?

Honest question, honest answer The only other software platform that I could compare this to would be PT/Battery/Sampletank, which is the setup I was using before I converted to Guru. (Tried Cubase, Nuendo, Logic, etc) Main reason I switched was because Guru was that much more 'beat making' oriented. So many features that are available (and not) on an MPC are available in Guru; rhythm shifting, filtering, FX, EQ, Dynamics, loop/sample manipulation, pitching/tuning, envelopes, etc. They are all there...granted the FX aren't the best, but I prefer to use FX during mixdown. Its nice to have them while making the beats so I can get my idea down though. The graph view and pad edits are your best friends! Not to mention most everything is drag/droppable, and the stability is top knotch.

There are plenty of other features, such as the automatic loop cutter; you can import a breakbeat (for example) and it will cut them up into individual hits for you, which you can then drop onto the pads as you wish. Not a feature that I use all too often, but a cool one nevertheless.

I'm not trying to push Guru on you by any means. What ever works for you, works, and keep doing it! Thats how you get creative, is by creating your own workflow, not necessarily the applications you use. However, Guru has sped up my drum-making workflow significantly, and made it easier to get better results, in my opinion.

[PhonoquO]

here's a time saver for cubase, if u want to lace the midi drum parts that are recorded:

put your snares/claps on beat 2 on one track
put your snares/claps on beat 4 on another track

now use the timeshift control located in the info pane on the left (looks like a clock), and freak that to create your grooves

u could apply this technique to kicks on different beats as well

it's quick and efficient and will keep u out of nudging in piano roll, and u will have a visual millesecond readout of how much ahead or behind ur placing ur hits

so basically if u do this to all your drums/percussion that are laid out on tracks, u can create your own quantise feel for all the tracks, with all your midi hits hard quantized to 16's for simplicity

FREAK THIS TRICK, works

[SampleMan]

good tips keepem coming

[wcb123]

Hey i use VST32 for my sequencing. This is where i do all of my drum programming and wouldnt have it any other way, its a personal preference but i cant stand making beats elsewhere, in particular Pro Tools and even more so the SX line.

Cubase VST is the way forward, tie that with the bundles stated in my signature and you have a dream machine.

[MYAMS]

I absolutely need to play the stuff in. You can maybe program a kick and snare but how are you gonna program in complex percussion? And you gotta use the groove you played in yourself.

I have heard of hip hop guys doing it your way- but it is mainly the techno guys who use the same pattern every time

[beat you down]

been doing this for years.
works for me.

[T. Gundersen]

I don't see the the reason to do it this way.. There's nothing a, say, Battery 3 in Multi-Channel mode can't do easier for my style of work. When I make beats, it very rarely take more than half an hour before the drums are on lock, breaks included - and I very, very rarely have any compression activated before the mixing stage. Just enveloping, stacking, some EQ and the right playing/programming.

[Phiktion]

I make beats in Acid pro (dont hate, lol) and I have always prefered this method. I just like to 'SEE" everything in the timeline. It's not as convienent to swap out drums sounds and things as it is in reason, but I just feel like I have more control with the sequencing. Been gettin into using guru as a vst and freakin the piano roll tho lately, just for the ease of auditioning sounds on the pads, maybe even lay something down on the pads, freeze the track to a wav. and bring it into the timeline and chop it up some more! Plus im just a nerd, and an mpc dont have dual 22" monitors

[T. Gundersen]

Originally Posted by Phiktion

Been gettin into using guru as a vst and freakin the piano roll tho lately, just for the ease of auditioning sounds on the pads, maybe even lay something down on the pads, freeze the track to a wav. and bring it into the timeline and chop it up some more!

That's not a bad point. Though I use MIDI for drums, I often bounce down to .wav for little glitches and other freaky editing.

[timbreman]

Originally Posted by Phiktion

It's not as convienent to swap out drums sounds and things as it is in reason,

I've been using this method for years in Acid Pro. If I want intricate drums I just loop a few bars and zoom in to the 32nd note view and paste hits until I find the groove and then copy and paste variations. But then I've always used grid styles for beat making since back when I got my first drum machine....the ry20.

Oh and it is very conienent to swap out drum one shots in Acid Pro. Just make sure you have your drive access in the lower window and drag a drum one shot straight to the track on the left. Make sure you drag it into the name of that track....otherwise it wont take.

[Phiktion]

Originally Posted by timbreman

Oh and it is very conienent to swap out drum one shots in Acid Pro. Just make sure you have your drive access in the lower window and drag a drum one shot straight to the track on the left. Make sure you drag it into the name of that track....otherwise it wont take.

Ive been using Acid for 8 Years and didn't know you could replace the files this way, I thought you had to use the replace file option. THANK YOU!!!!!!!

[JaeOne3345]

Half (or more) of the fun in music is PLAYING it. I dunno. I have rhythm, I use it. Of course I may go back and do deep editing, but triggering samples, playing instruments, etc, IS THE FUN PART...for me anyways.

[voicegenius]

Originally Posted by JaeOne3345

Half (or more) of the fun in music is PLAYING it. I dunno. I have rhythm, I use it. Of course I may go back and do deep editing, but triggering samples, playing instruments, etc, IS THE FUN PART...for me anyways.

+1 thumbsup.

[trilblitz]

To RyanR, I have seen other people use that method. It's quite impressive especially if the person is fast. However for me it comes down to work flow and not having to think so much and just feeling the vibe as I go. Being able to make adjustments with out totally undoing and checking the vibe immediately. I use Guru and Battery the best of both worlds at my fingertips.

But to be honest man what ever method you use to capture your madness (has long as it works)it's all good!
Just keep it bangin!

[gmonrr]

I have came from an mpc background but now I do it this way but in Acid 4.0
at first it took time but now i can do it quickly. i can process (eq compress, pitch etc) each drum sound right there and then.

i got my mpc back and ended up selling it. now i find it easier to do it like this.
If i want swing i can turn the snap off and nudge things for taste.

i then export the loop as a 2track and put that loop in cubase to sequence the track.