Question 4 Engineers?? Protools Recording VS 2-Inch Tape?

[Checkmate Muzik]

Engineers!! What do prefer to record on?? Protools Or 2inch Tapes??

Could you please give Pros & Cons of both!!

Sofar i have recorded my stuff on protools and i am thinking about tryin out the 2 inch tapes cause i like how Dre music sounds!!

[con?one]

Originally Posted by Checkmate Muzik

Engineers!! What do prefer to record on?? Protools Or 2inch Tapes??

Could you please give Pros & Cons of both!!

Sofar i have recorded my stuff on protools and i am thinking about tryin out the 2 inch tapes cause i like how Dre music sounds!!

Between the two, I'd take 2". I'm in the market for a machine now (I've been strictly digital since d&d closed).
I use Nuendo now... Sold the HD system last year.

[Checkmate Muzik]

Originally Posted by con?one

Between the two, I'd take 2". I'm in the market for a machine now (I've been strictly digital since d&d closed).
I use Nuendo now... Sold the HD system last year.

Why you sell the HD? We recently started recording on Protools 192khz and i like the sound so far.

[babyface_finsta]

Checkmate...

This is a little off topic... looks like we've worked with at least 2 of the same people... you should get in contact with Ski... he's been doing a lot of work with Dre lately... at least for the past 6-8 months... he can really help you out if you opt not to go the 2" route... I've seen him come really close to the sound with out reels... your only problem is to get him to slow down.... he's incredible fast... if you can get at him between his trips from the Bay to LA... have him do a hook, and sit in on the mixdown session... his input and add touches will be worth it.

[wwittman]

ProTools is more instantly flexible.

Tape sounds better.

Tape is more expensive than hard rive space.

that's it in a nutshell.

[Checkmate Muzik]

Originally Posted by babyface_finsta

Checkmate...

This is a little off topic... looks like we've worked with at least 2 of the same people... you should get in contact with Ski... he's been doing a lot of work with Dre lately... at least for the past 6-8 months... he can really help you out if you opt not to go the 2" route... I've seen him come really close to the sound with out reels... your only problem is to get him to slow down.... he's incredible fast... if you can get at him between his trips from the Bay to LA... have him do a hook, and sit in on the mixdown session... his input and add touches will be worth it.

check yo pm dog

[Checkmate Muzik]

Originally Posted by wwittman

ProTools is more instantly flexible.

Tape sounds better.

Tape is more expensive than hard rive space.

that's it in a nutshell.

why would you say tape sound better? does it have more punch? or is it the warmer feel to your music? how is it different from protools in your opinion?

[jcool]

I tend to think that the term "warmth", when paired with the act of using tape or tubes, is purely hype. Nasty marketing hype.
It is very true that great music can be made using both mediums. Think about it. . . Do you think Dre's fans are fans because he tracks to tape? People, in general, cannot hear a difference, and it doesn't necessarily sound better in my opinion.

James

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Checkmate Muzik

Engineers!! What do prefer to record on?? Protools Or 2inch Tapes??

Could you please give Pros & Cons of both!!

Sofar i have recorded my stuff on protools and i am thinking about tryin out the 2 inch tapes cause i like how Dre music sounds!!

Dre's sound is more than just tape vs. PTools.

To try to break it down to just these 2 elements is a little limited.

In some ways tape sounds nicer, but not all tape machines sound alike.

Also when mixing off tape you have to rewind and play for hours and over time this will wear out the tape.

ProTools is better for fiixng parts,copying choruses and such.

But again they are just 2 recording mediums.

Mixing is a whole other ball game.

Dre doesn't mix in a computer.

He mixes on an SSL with outboard gear.

This influences the sound as well.

Also having the right engineer with the right knowledge and skill to bring the best out of the tracks is crucial also.

If you have all of this already and feel you need to inch up that last 3% than yeah it maybe worth it to investigate tape.

But if you don't than you are in for a bunch of letdowns.

[Checkmate Muzik]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Dre's sound is more than just tape vs. PTools.

To try to break it down to just these 2 elements is a little limited.

In some ways tape sounds nicer, but not all tape machines sound alike.

Also when mixing off tape you have to rewind and play for hours and over time this will wear out the tape.

ProTools is better for fiixng parts,copying choruses and such.

But again they are just 2 recording mediums.

Mixing is a whole other ball game.

Dre doesn't mix in a computer.

He mixes on an SSL with outboard gear.

This influences the sound as well.

Also having the right engineer with the right knowledge and skill to bring the best out of the tracks is crucial also.

If you have all of this already and feel you need to inch up that last 3% than yeah it maybe worth it to investigate tape.

But if you don't than you are in for a bunch of letdowns.

Basically i am tryin to learn more about the different formats of recordings and how will it change my sound.

So youre saying different tape machine sounds different??

i was speaking quality aspect of Dres recording, how clear it sounds and how much of a low end punch his kicks have. and his drums (kicks, snares) sounds very fuller. and i am tryin to figure was he able to achieve all that punch recording on a 2inch tape? Or maybe his drums sounds just as good depending on how it was EQued, no matter what he records on? i dont know

I got access to top equipment/gear/mics. I am basically tryin to figure out how much different my beat would sound tracking it on a tape. But i always heard people say Dre records on tape so i want to see what the hype is all about. Is it really that different or not??

One of the engineers also told me that you can record a song a tape and dump the tracks on a protools and mix it like a protool session so you wont lose quality playing it over n over.

if youre saying it would be only 3% sound difference then i dont even think its really worth it for me to waste my $$

My engineer told me its a very different sound, you cant compare the 2. But he prefers the tape over protools

[con?one]

Originally Posted by Checkmate Muzik

Why you sell the HD? We recently started recording on Protools 192khz and i like the sound so far.

I switched because I liked nuendo better. There are a lot less sonic and technical limitations. It's a matter of preference. When I switched to digital, HD just came out, and my man at digi got me a good deal, so I went with it. When I got to actually use nuendo in a real time setting, it got me open.

[d.dot]

Dre is using pt HD now through an SSL.

[Checkmate Muzik]

Originally Posted by d.dot

Dre is using pt HD now through an SSL.

is that right?? no more 2Inch anymore huh??

[SYNCRECY]

As hard as this is to say.... Protools would be the better of the two at this time, the speed alone will save you money and with HD@192 you are getting a great sound.
with 2" you need a engineer that know how to work with it, you don't load a reel and run with it, it takes time to setup each reel and machine... PT is just the standard right now.

[Justice]

Checkmate

I think you have talked with my assitant, her name is Sarah/SubUrban Entertainment in Chicago... Anyway nuff respect. Hope to work with you soon!!!


yo my 2 cents is that if you have ever mixed on a SSL or a NEVE you understand the dynamics that are produced from the hardware inside of them. Tape is just a warmer and easier recording method. Plus most really true MC can do the whole track in one take so there is no need for editing. It comes down to the talent of the artist. If they are really talented and understand how to make a "RECORD" then they should get dropped on 2 inch. Anyone else do what you need to do. But 2 inch tapes are like $150-200 for 15-30 min reels. $200 bucks can get you a lot of harddrive space... Plus with tapes you have to deal with SMPTE and most "PRODUCERS" these day don't even know what that is..

I vote for 2inch, SSL/NEVE, and NS-10's thats all I need...

but I use Nuendo just like that!!!

Just my two cent. Holla at me mane....

BigJus

[Checkmate Muzik]

Yo thanks for sharing your opinions everyone.

For now, I think i am gona stick with HD192 instead of ****in with the old technology. But i will try out the tapes anyway on few songs to find out for myself how dat shit sounds. Doesnt hurt to try it out.

Appreciate all the responses. 1



Ps. Wuddup Justice? Its all good mayne, get at me.

[Igotsoul4u]

Tape is great, but it requires tons of knowledge that you can't get without working with someone who knows tape. You need to learn calibration, tape machine maintenence, speed choices, tape choices, tape sync (unless you mix off it), editing, and so on. Tape machines are beasts and require a lot of training to really know how to do it right. Its not as forgiving as protools. Its way more expensive overall. Tape itself is expensive. Overall i feel like it doesn't have a place in hip hop anymore. Maybe for mix down, but not tracking. Most artists don't have the patience to wait for you to rewind the tape. They most definetly will not be cool if you f up a punch and they have to spit a section over again. Most budgets can't afford tape. As far as what the pros are doing, its not tape. I think Dre has switched to in the box mixing. i don't think you are going to gain anything by switching to tape. i think it would be a better to check out something like a summing system or maybe tape emulation. These things will be user friendly and cheaper overall. check out the cranesong phoenix plugin, neve 8816 summing mixer, or the empiracal labs fatso.

[madjef]

I learned how to make records on tape, I remember what it was like working with
noise reduction (SR) remember tape Hiss. It was real man. Sometimes it was real loud. When digi entered the game, I jumped on Sound Designer the two track editor from back in the day, running on a powerful Mac IICI. I was the shit, i took my system in to show it to the biggest producers in the game who I was on staff with and they thought I was bugging. They couldnt see it replacing tape. Today I still get vibes when I see that sexy ass 2-inch machine in a studio. But do I have time to clean heads, align, load tape and sync to my MPC or whatever, Hell no. SSL and outboard with PTS HD is the only way to go.

madjef
producer/engineer

holla

[Checkmate Muzik]

It sounds like too much work and time consuming working on 2inch tapes. Protools HD it is!!

[HGK]

@Checkmate I noticed your pic (you are a siccness member) and thought I should reply to your question here. Many factors come into play regarding Dre's music and don't forget you are listening to the final product which has been mastered by the best mastering engineers who are running the tracks through the best converters. If you go the tape route prepare to not only spend money on the tape but be prepared to also spend money on head rental fees. If I were going to use tape I would mix to 2 track tape instead of multitrack tape, and I would also send a signal out from the board into another deck (like a masterlink) to compare the two.

Other alternatives would be the summing box (as suggested), and various plugins (McDSP plugins sound good.) What type of converters do you have access to?

:HGK:

[Checkmate Muzik]

I got access to all of it. Top gear. I am not sure about all the technical stuff such as 2 track vs multi track but i will ask my engineer how he does it. i guess i wont find out the difference till i try it out myself. thanks for tips though

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Checkmate Muzik

It sounds like too much work and time consuming working on 2inch tapes. Protools HD it is!!

It really depends on the machine.

A modern Studer will store the settings for certain tape types(and right now there aren't that many).

If this is for your production house once you get a system going its simple and you won't think about it really.

It becomes second nature like anything.

You'll only probably notice when you have to rewind or fast forward trying to do punch ins.

And you got some guy on the other side of the glass screaming what's taking so long.

And again tape is only a small percentage.

It can only do so much for samples.

If you hit too hard it will take the edge away.

To me it really comes down to the talent of your team.

Especially your engineers.

The gear only gets you so far.

After a while its all the same in the top studios anyway.

A really good engineer can do magic with badly recorded tracks, overly compressed vocals and samples that lack the "knock" or "bang".

And if you got a hit sonically he can help bring out.

I know lots of guys here want to do everything themselves, but sometimes having someone who specialty is just getting great sounds can take productions to the next level so the producer can focus on other aspects like the performances of the artists.

[HGK]

Originally Posted by Checkmate Muzik

I got access to all of it. Top gear. I am not sure about all the technical stuff such as 2 track vs multi track but i will ask my engineer how he does it. i guess i wont find out the difference till i try it out myself. thanks for tips though

You said you are pleased with the HD sound, but try to fine out if the engineer is using the HD converters or stand alone converter(s).

[Edge]

All in All my theroy is let the engineer use what he is good at, if you find a engineer who's sound is good to you and he says I mix on ADATS don't tell him to mix on pro-tools or 2" its the engineer not the gear most of the time

Oh those SSL plug ins are great by the way lol

[Polyphony]

hey check,
one thing you could try that we do all the time is after we mix via SSL4000 run the 2mix from the board to 1/2inch then back to protools. And a mix directly to pt's. Sometimes, depending on the song, 1/2" wins and sometimes directly to pt's wins. It depends on the mood/emotion of the song.
It would just give you an idea of what tape sounds like with out having to buy a $300 reel. In answer to you question tho I prefer 2" sound to pt's but would never use it based on modern day time restraints of record labels.
Good luck,
P.

[t.dizzle]

Originally Posted by Polyphony

It would just give you an idea of what tape sounds like with out having to buy a $300 reel.

Not really. There's a big difference between tracking on 2" and mixing to 1/2".

2" reels cost around $200 fyi.

[Checkmate Muzik]

My all time favorite mixed album is Biggy's Life After Death album. im guessin it was mixed on 2inch. It gota huge sound as far kicks n snares. thats the type of sound im gona try to achieve. im ready for it though to try the whole analog setup.

my engineer told me back then major label spend months on a record to make sure all the sounds were right. and there was a whole lot time spent on records to make each record as big as it sounds.

Our current record already sounds like Jay's 'Kingdom comes' or better and it was mixed entirely by Dre. I want that Chornic 2000 sound though.

[Polyphony]

Originally Posted by t.dizzle

Not really. There's a big difference between tracking on 2" and mixing to 1/2".

2" reels cost around $200 fyi.

I wasn't debating the 2. And you're right but tape does have a natural compression to it 1/2" or 2" and I'm talking about the 2mix to tape not tracking. Just suggesting and option....people like options...
As far as price....Depends what country you're in.....In Canada it's around $300 a reel. Excuse my Canadianess...lol

[adrianex]

Originally Posted by t.dizzle

2" reels cost around $200 fyi.

Plus is also for 24 tracks and about 30min of recording if you work 30ips or 15ips (I think...its been a while).

Also it depends on the machine your are working with, And also the maintence and replacement of the heads

Now, I couldn't say that Tape sound "better" than Protools (today), but I would surely say that It adds something to it.

If I was you I would give it a try, is an experience for sure. And if you going to buy a machine, be sure to have a Tech close, because they need to be taken care of alot.

Cheers

[primeminister]

tape machines sound great, but also are a hassle. If I were you Id just get a tape saturation emulator for pro tools. I bet you wont be able to tell the diffrence.