Ok, back to this.... MPC TRACKING FOR PROS ATTN: TONY BELMONT!
Old 5th January 2006
  #1
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Ok, back to this.... MPC TRACKING FOR PROS ATTN: TONY BELMONT!

....Ok, So in the last couple of weeks I have gone a little mental, I have read all the DA/AD threads, done the research on preamps and balanced DIs for MPCs, and ultimately am at the same spot where I was a few weeks back... which is just confused.

Here is my thing. I have a very nice mix bus. I love the way 10 outputs from my MPC sound through the API 8200 (usually 6 channels of softer electronic/atmospheric sounds) / (2)7600s (stereo drums/bass) / Summed at 7800 through the 2500 bus compressor. This is a professional level mixer, with a professional level coming out of the MPC4000... it sounds great.

I track each instrument separately into Protools through the direct outs of the 8200/7200s straight into protools... I have eveything set to a +4 environment. Track it with decent level.... play it back... and sounds okay, but not nearly as nice as before... even using the Rosetta 200 for the DA conversion.

Ok, I was maybe bagging (a bit prematurely) on the 002 Mix bus, and in peticular what it does to the dimension of a mix. To me it does sound choked as soon as I get it into ProTools... and have found that playing back the same mixes in Logic feel less choked... and so I switched this week.

I think my problem here is in the tracking of these levels from the MPC... although when I plug my MPC into the balanced ins on the 8200s, if I check the metering levels, everything seems kosher professional level, sitting at around +6 hitting the tape (my meters on my compressor outputs are calibrated the same as my tape machine...) and it sounds really good (although in some instances could use EQ or FX.... which is why I usually put these tracks into the workstation).

So here is my deal.
I want to track multi-outs from my MPC into Logic (I sold my 002) and I want them to play out through a good 2 channel DA, midi sync'd to my outputs on my MPC, for summing at the API... back to Digital or to Tape, and have it sound every bit as good as when I am monitoring the MPC through the APIs alone... which sound great!

Is adding a few more line level to mic level DIs of some sort really gonna make that difference (am I crazy? the MPC is a professional balanced level, right?) or am I doing something wrong here?

For now I will be tracking through my old 828mk2 (with the Rosetta 200 via Spdif...) instead of the 002.

I would love to add a few of the Auroras, but just cant afford them right now.
Tony: can you break this down for the dumbasses out here?
Old 5th January 2006
  #2
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No4PCs's Avatar
 

question

Hi friend, i like to research about audio.I have a question about tracking.
I always read ppl telling about the damn ad/da apogee converter..My stupid question. Why i need to buy this unit if in the digital recorders or in the sound cards have their own converter. I mean. If a certain audio card claim 96khz converter, why we need to buy another converter?
Bests.

Last edited by No4PCs; 5th January 2006 at 03:15 AM.. Reason: better diagram
Old 5th January 2006
  #3
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sixtoo?!...crazy man. your music played an important part in my life for like a year or two so it's dope to see you on here. I still bump that "songs I hate" cd...also I tryed to contact you about getting some art done for a tatoo a while back but lost touch of your email so if you'd still be interested I have a couple things I'd like to talk to you about....

sorry for thread hijack
Old 5th January 2006
  #4
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hey sixtoo-
i dont think you are doing anything wrong here. to me it sounds like digital summing might be muddying up your mix. (let me stress 'might')

i'll just give you my 2 cents as i am doing something something similiar as you. sorry if i stray off topic. i'm doing primarily hiphop music here btw. assuming you are using mpcs and what not i would guess you are doing the same (hiphop or electronic). i have 24 channels of apogee da, 8 outs on an mpc, 8 outs on an akai s950(for lofi goodness), and 6 stereo channels outs from an SE Omega8 synth summed together through SPECK XSUMS. with the synths and samplers synced to midi its like having a 50 channel console. (although a little more cumbersome to mix with). i'm telling you though before this i was doing everything through an apogee psx-100 using digital summing and my mixes never come close to what they are now. and i'm not just talking about the analog synths that stay in the analog realm the whole way. thats obvious it will sound better. i'm talking about the stuff thats been tracked into the pc. my drums sampled off vinyl sound HUGE again! i honestly believe its very difficult to get as big and clear of a mix with digital summing as you can with analog. i know there are plenty of people out there that mix way better than i do who use all digital. for some reason my ears like the analog summing better. now i also use analog outboard but i have mixes that are all digital plugs summed through the XSUM that still are just as bangin.

therefore my advice would be to try adding more stems to your mix situation. (ie add 16 more channels of da out and mix with 8 outs on the mpc synced via midi). my personal opinion is that analog summing sounds WAY better than digital for hiphop/electronic music. the key is to have all of you audio stems set to unity at their digital outputs. chris muth explained this in a white paper thats on the dangerous audio website. according to his theory you loose resolution with the digtal faders set below unity and summing additional tracks. once i started doing it my mixes instantly improved. i build my beats from scratch on mpc and then track into seperate tracks into the pc via either apogee ad-16 or through a great river DI into lavry 4496. the only reason i go through the great river sometimes is that it gives the sonic signature of the DI to whats going through it. (sometimes it does nice things...many times it does little to nothing). also hitting good class a or ab discrete amps (ie neve/api) before you hit the analog mix bus can do nice things sometimes (drums). your api probably shines here.

if you are tracking things at good levels when printing to digital that should be fine. a DI in my opionion is nice but not essential if you already have a good ad-converter. to me it can simply be used like a plug for an effect. maybe others would think hitting a DI before the ad to be important. i dont know. my advice would be to get the following (used if possible):


-apogee da-16 (street price 1300)
-soundcard for da-16 (used rme $250)
-folcrum 16 channel passive mix bus (used 600)
-great river or aurora stereo mic pre (for class a makeup gain on folcrom plus 2 kick arse DI's (used 1700))
----------------
total 3850.00 OUCH!!!

yeah its expensive but i think your sound would jump to a higher level. plus doing it this way gets you a nice stereo mic pre that you will love and you can experiement with tracking mpc with good DI's. plus if you buy all the stuff used and you decide it sucks you can turn around and sell it for what you paid for it. (or close to it)

good luck with it.

electric
Old 5th January 2006
  #5
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Have you tried coming out(D/A) into the 8200 and 7600s and 7800? It seems like you should be summing with this sweet mixer as well and not just going in with it. Maybe you could pick up another 8 channels of nice D/A and then run 16 into the API mixer. I would imagine that should sound nice.

Also, Black Lion Audio offers a mod for the 828 that supposedly improves the sound(I believe for both the A/D and the D/A), though I have not heard it myself.
Old 5th January 2006
  #6
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Also, not sure what your level is coming in, but you may want to try hitting digital at lower volumes. You may be getting overs that your digital metering doesn't show.

Personally, peaking around -6 to -8 seems to work well for me.
Old 5th January 2006
  #7
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To my understanding the MPC4000 is the only MPC which puts out a balanced signal.. But, just because the connector is balanced isn't the whole story... We need to find out a couple of things.

Is the MPC putting out a balanced line level signal, or high impedance instrument level on a balanced connector?

It's most likely putting out a +4 balanced line level signal. Technically there is no need for any additional DI's, etc on the way to your API 8200. The API is seeing the level and impedance which it wants. The only reason you may want to use something like a DI or Aurora GTQ is to get the tone from that particular piece of gear.

So, honestly if it sounds good now, then you are good. I think the Rosetta 200 and 828mkII will be fine.

If you want to talk more about your setup, you can give me a call tomorrow afternoon.
Old 6th January 2006
  #8
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what about coming out from an unblalanced signal? I've never thought about it until this post but all my outs are unbalanced (mpc 60 and s950), I'm using balanced cables and going into the firebox which is balanced or unbalanced?

or going into my MG614 with the same setup and cables and running the monitor outs into the firebox

is either of these setups affecting my sound?
Old 6th January 2006
  #9
no ssl yet
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Tony, I started to post that the MPC4k has balanced outs and does not need a DI because there is no impedance mismatch, but I wasnt sure if the multi outs are balanced as well.. Are they??
Old 6th January 2006
  #10
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Thread Starter
Thanks...

Hey Guys, thanks for the feedback and comments.


The thing is this...

I have been making records this way for some time now, and to my ears they sound perfectly acceptable... I have my own sound that I am quite confortable with, but of course and always trying to make it sound bigger and better. I really cant afford another 8 7600's or some GTQs (although i will be adding a second 8200 this week) or another fancy multichannel DA/AD right now.

I got this API summing setup hoping that it would make my digital setup it sound as "real/upfront" as when I grab a bunch of neve strips and put them between the MPC and summing mixer, for whatever reason, tracking to that digital realm only deminishes the spacial quality in the music. I want to know if there is specifically a proven method for making it loud as **** and still have the dynamics and space. I am not talking about the sound of the Neptunes or JayZ (although I think they are good producers, and the Rick Rubin track could slide here...)... I am talking about Bomb Squad P.E. productions and shit that sounds like a tank just dropped in a studio, and that the shit caught fire!

What is the tracking proceedure is when someone like JayZ is tracking off a Scott Stoch beat? Are they doing thier tracking at home? They have nice front ends on cheaper consumer systems? Are the tracking individuals through the SSLs into Apogees? Coming to the studio to mix with a 24 MIX system? off thier shit tracked on 002s and just running it through enough outboard that it actually polishes turds? I think the music itself has something to do with it, as the fact that most pop-rap has a very stripped down sound now.... 4 notes, some drums, a sub bass, 4 virus pads... I don't give a shit about this music, really, but I do want to know how guys using presets and crappy digital synths are making it sound big.

Anyways, back to my point.

The outputs on the 4K are balanced line level, not hi-z level... and are running into balanced channels on the 8200 (en route from the direct outs into the MOTU or 002). I am convinced I am tracking these outputs in the best way possible, that the impedences are matched, and that I am not pushing overs or anything like that.

I think perhaps just adding the sound of some pre's here might make a difference, although generally I find that regardless of what is on the front end, that as soon as it gets into the digital realm I lose the width and depth.

I might just say **** it, and start tracking eveything into the MPC and renting a bunch of extra 7600s when I am ready to mix my next record, do it straight to tape and not worry about any of this shit.

I mean, seriously, I cannot see it getting much better than that, especially slamming it hard to a well calibrated tape and then taking the 1/4" reel to a good mastering house, and saying screw the workstation for anything other than editing and adding effects and whatnot, which is a pretty fatal outlook for someone who has been making music with a computer for a while now.

I know some people are making really good sounding records on Apogees and Logic, what is the tracking process for those records?

ps: electric, Im not discounting your suggestions here, I have considered adding more stems from my system, and I am doing that slowly. I already have some really good pre's and analog EQs which I like and use in the mixes, and that my problem doesn't lie in the API summing, but in the way that digital workstations change the spacial qualities of the mix. I am going to try leaving all faders at unity though.... I always through this idea was specifically for bounces.

Get at me guys.
Not ready to jump to a mix system yet.
Old 6th January 2006
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixtoo
HI have been making records this way for some time now, and to my ears they sound perfectly acceptable... I have my own sound that I am quite confortable with, but of course and always trying to make it sound bigger and better. I really cant afford another 8 7600's or some GTQs (although i will be adding a second 8200 this week) or another fancy multichannel DA/AD right now.

I got this API summing setup hoping that it would make my digital setup it sound as "real/upfront" as when I grab a bunch of neve strips and put them between the MPC and summing mixer, for whatever reason, tracking to that digital realm only deminishes the spacial quality in the music. I want to know if there is specifically a proven method for making it loud as **** and still have the dynamics and space. I am not talking about the sound of the Neptunes or JayZ (although I think they are good producers, and the Rick Rubin track could slide here...)... I am talking about Bomb Squad P.E. productions and shit that sounds like a tank just dropped in a studio, and that the shit caught fire!

What is the tracking proceedure is when someone like JayZ is tracking off a Scott Stoch beat? Are they doing thier tracking at home? They have nice front ends on cheaper consumer systems? Are the tracking individuals through the SSLs into Apogees? Coming to the studio to mix with a 24 MIX system? off thier shit tracked on 002s and just running it through enough outboard that it actually polishes turds? I think the music itself has something to do with it, as the fact that most pop-rap has a very stripped down sound now.... 4 notes, some drums, a sub bass, 4 virus pads... I don't give a shit about this music, really, but I do want to know how guys using presets and crappy digital synths are making it sound big.
.
Most of these guys are just using the standard PT 192 I/O... Oftentimes, their keys are tracked with a couple Countryman DI's into say an SSL 9k or a Neve module, etc. The Timbaland's and Scott Storch's are recording in nice rooms with SSL's and Pro Tools. They've got instruments everywhere mic'ed with the best mics for the specific application into the best pre's and also the best musicians. Also, they have experienced engineers who are capable of taking all of this and making it that radio ready sound. Also, mention 2" machines and people will ask you where you've been.... Simply no one is using tape in these circles.

As for the middle tier producers? Most of these guys are tracking their beats with 002's at home or in the B rooms of various studios. They typically will have a couple pre's for tracking and the stock Digi 002 converters... Those beats are then polished at the mixing stage.

Like I always tell people though... The Recording Engineer's Degree doesn't come in the box. It's very likely that you could have the exact same gear as someone else and never get it to sound the same.
Old 6th January 2006
  #12
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Not sure I can really offer too much here other than to provide another perspective because sometimes when you think about things too much you can get your head in a knot and end up in a void.

Firstly, and I don't mean to sound sarcastic, but lets remember that the MPC is all digital so why would the analogue summing of the converted signals from the MPC sound any different to that which has been tracked(and you say you have done everything correctly), but if it is, the difference would most likely be the result of the frontend converters.

Why don't you get better converters and simply use Logic as a mixer so you have access to the plugins that software offers. Logic now has plugin compensation. You don't have to do any summing in logic. You can have every track sent to its own out and use a combination of converters if you are using Tiger. Core Audio rules.

There are great mixes that have every track first emerging 'in the box'. Both commercial and underground stuff. So it is possible.

I had a 002 and thought it was ok. I moved to a muliface anthought it was better and then went to a fireface and thought they were another step u but these are by no means the number one converters. 'You can do it '

Just offering a different perspective.
Old 6th January 2006
  #13
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Thread Starter
Hey Tony and Tengu:
Yeah, I mean, really, this isin't about me, or insecurity about my sound. It's more about getting stuff into the box without it making my hard work sound like relative ass. I think I might have to dump some dough on a better multichannel DA, and keep my 200 for the mix. Generally, I am happy with this stuff, but its getting that extra 5% out of your mixes is what can cost a damn fortune, and make you want to pull your hair out. I think I might have to sit humbe for a while though.

Ahh perfectionists.
Old 6th January 2006
  #14
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If you just want to get your MPC4k sounds into the box, buy the ADAT expansion card and the S/Pdif expansion for your MPC. That way you have 10 channels with no loss (and no gain) in sound quality. You can leave the rest to the mixing engineer of your trust :-)

Dussel
Old 6th January 2006
  #15
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I think you should run some tests, try tracking and comparing separately a piano sound a bass and a drum break into Logic. Try with and without any other hardware in the chain. Then do some direct comparisons, (try resampling and playing back through the MPC, to give you the same signal path to see where the difference is)

You should be able to get an equivalent signal in Logic, as compared with the live sound. Without any ITB processing the digital domain should not be mangling your stuf that much!

I don't have a high end system, but when I track my midi stuff into Logic via TLA Fatman (to warm stuff up), everything comes out sounding better or at least the same.

You could also try posting this on the Logic Users Group (yahoo forum) There are cats here that should be able to advise you about what might be going wrong.
Old 6th January 2006
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electric
-apogee da-16 (street price 1300)
-soundcard for da-16 (used rme $250)
-folcrum 16 channel passive mix bus (used 600)
-great river or aurora stereo mic pre (for class a makeup gain on folcrom plus 2 kick arse DI's (used 1700))
----------------
total 3850.00 OUCH!!!
I think the Phoenix Audio "Nice DI" has enough gain to power a folcrom and it's only $650... so save $1050 right there.

http://www.phoenixaudio.net/pages/nicedi.html
Old 6th January 2006
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd world order
I think the Phoenix Audio "Nice DI" has enough gain to power a folcrom and it's only $650... so save $1050 right there.
Do you have a link for where you saw the Pheonix Audio stereo DI for $650?
Old 6th January 2006
  #18
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So, Sixtoo, have you tried coming out of Logic into the API for summing? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you situation, but it seems like this could possibly improve the sound if you could prioritize what to sum in Logic and what to send individually to the 8 inputs.
Old 6th January 2006
  #19
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Thread Starter
It isin't so much a stemming/summing problem, I am having the same depth issues even when running a stemmed mix from Logic or ProTools... its more like, when I do a transfer from a module to digital some undefinable thing gets lost, and it isint one specifical quality that doesnt translate... The bass isint as bassy as when it is playing straight out of the module/synth/sampler and the overall tightness gets a little loose.

Dussel: the thing is this, I like the punch of the DA converters on the MPC, and I want to caputer that sound as accurately as possible.

I am sure there are other people having the same problems, I have tried good DA/AD and while it has solved some of it, it hasn't solved other parts.
Old 7th January 2006
  #20
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Is the signal path for your MPC playing live, the same as the signal path for the recorded audio? are they using the same D/A?

What sample rate and bit depth are you recording at?

Are you recording in mono or stero?

Do you still hear huge differences in recorded audio if you don't run it through the API's..(i.e. is the API's making the sh%t sound so good and your AD's can't capture the detail)?

Have you tried direct monitring the signal to be recorded from your interface, and then direct from the record enabled chanel in the DAW? Does it sound the same as the signal comming from the API's

Have you checked that all your interfaces are clocked correctly?

Is your DAW clocked the same as the interfaces?

Which is the master clock?

Any of the above could affect the quality of the recording or what you are hearing as the recorded audio.

You sound experienced enough to know all this (so no offense if it sounds patronising)
Old 7th January 2006
  #21
Gear nut
 

if you like the sound of the mpc's d/a, why don't you get it into the computer via adat, edit it the way you want, send it back to the mpc via adat and send it through the mpc's d/a only then ?
Old 7th January 2006
  #22
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Thread Starter
Is the signal path for your MPC playing live, the same as the signal path for the recorded audio? are they using the same D/A?

They are, yes. Any stems from the MPC or Logic are being sent to the APIs via multi channels first and are played back through the same number of channels... although generally, because I dont have enough outputs, I find that it makes more sense to just do the summing of Logic through the Rosetta 200 than multi stems from the MOTU, as the sound of the converters are that much better.

What sample rate and bit depth are you recording at?

Always 24 bit 44k, and only 44 because so much of it gets dithered down for CD.

Are you recording in mono or stero?

Mono if the channels are mono, stereo is they are stereo.

Do you still hear huge differences in recorded audio if you don't run it through the API's..(i.e. is the API's making the sh%t sound so good and your AD's can't capture the detail)?

Yes, I have tried moitoring direct through the APIs and without, and find the signal to be somewhat altered regardless of the front end.

Have you tried direct monitring the signal to be recorded from your interface, and then direct from the record enabled chanel in the DAW? Does it sound the same as the signal comming from the API's

Yes, I have tried this, and this is where the real comparison comes down... its just not quite the same when you run it through the DA.

Have you checked that all your interfaces are clocked correctly?

Yes, everything except the MPC is clocked via the Rosetta.

Is your DAW clocked the same as the interfaces?

Hmmm. never thought about that as I have always just assumed that Logic and Protools clock to whatever interface they at the end of the firewire bus... I will check that, and really, this might be a really big party of the equasion.

Which is the master clock?

Rosetta.
Old 7th January 2006
  #23
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonyme
if you like the sound of the mpc's d/a, why don't you get it into the computer via adat, edit it the way you want, send it back to the mpc via adat and send it through the mpc's d/a only then ?
still need the computer for editing and live play syncd tracks....
Old 7th January 2006
  #24
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Old 7th January 2006
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
Tony, I started to post that the MPC4k has balanced outs and does not need a DI because there is no impedance mismatch, but I wasnt sure if the multi outs are balanced as well.. Are they??

They are.

the 2500 has the balanced I/0 via 1/4" jacks
Old 7th January 2006
  #26
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abit's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixtoo
its more like, when I do a transfer from a module to digital some undefinable thing gets lost, and it isint one specifical quality that doesn't translate... The bass isint as bassy as when it is playing straight out of the module/synth/sampler and the overall tightness gets a little loose.
I know exactly what do you mean.
Sure U loose fat at the front.
It's just less lively..
It's different.
One day, if U'll get a budget and go to neve or ssl room, and send your MPC and all other MIDI(not digital outs) strait to those pres..
Then U'll say - man, this what I was talking about my whole life.


Meanwhile we have to do our job as best as we can.
And it's possible to make stuff sound pretty damn good.

As for me 24/96 makes it noticeably better(if CPU will let U)
Expensive pres and expensive AD at the front.
1/4" in the end.

Motu DA's are just killing everything your're fighting for.
Old 7th January 2006
  #27
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i think you never ever will feel like what you originally played out of the mpc is what it sounded like, but to solve this problem, I monitor THRU pro tools so I actually hear what I will be getting and I don't ever listen to the MPC outputs raw. Also, if I were you, I'd get a FATSO instead of another 8200 it will add the meat you feel like you are missing. I just track my shit direct into Pro Tools, no fancy nothing going in. I have a Gaines line leveler instead of DIs for my synths in NYC but here in Brasil I don't have that shit so evertyhing is going straight into the digi 96i/o unbalanced with the interface set in the -10 position. The shit in my Fatso demo was tracked that way straight out of the MPC 1000. I do a lot of stuff people wouldn't expect, like using the ADAT outputs on my MPC 4000. Honestly I don't notice enough of a difference when I track like this or when I track thru the SSL at Westlake in LA to justify spending that kind of rediculous money on a front end. Just like with record contracts, it's your back end that counts the most
Old 7th January 2006
  #28
Gear nut
 

Hi Disco D,

what's the ‘Gaines line leveler', couldn't find any info on the web. I think your approach is right, listening back after the convertors so you won't have any bad surprises when you're listening back. Really liked what the Fatso did to the lowend on your Fatso-Demo!
cheers
shapemod
Old 7th January 2006
  #29
Gear addict
 

it's an 8 channel unbalanced to balanced converter - not a DI but sounds great. I got one used on here for $175, i have no idea where you buy them new.
Old 7th January 2006
  #30
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yo Six,
this Aaron from the OPUS, how have you been?
I just wanted to add my two sense which doesn’t mean a whole lot but....
I've been going through similar situation as your self for some time now.
As you know I'm an old analogue underground hip hop cat like your self, we did that whole Rubberoom record on two inch and mixed it on a Neve. That still my favorite sounding record that I have done after all these years.

If you're like me, I think until you can afford some high end AD/DA convertors, a great clock for the whole studio, a high quality console or a summing buss(particular to your tastes) etc, etc... You wont be totally satisfied with your end results.

What makes me say this?
to me nothing sounds like good analogue, and I've stayed out of big studios for a while now...so ever since then I've always been "fighting the sound" so to speak. After the Rubberoom lp, the Last single "Black Box" was recorded on a pro tools mix system, it was then mixed through an SSL console, and thought it sounded great! So the DAW situation worked for us in that situation.

I would say
every great piece you buy will help a little, unless you got a ton of cash, it's all baby steps my man. Just keep building until all the angles are covered, don’t stress it so much. Maybe pick one area at a time to attack.

Or, go with the best AD you can possibly get, track every thing at home get your mix together and go to a bigger facility with a nice console and make minute changes there...that might work for you for now.

only my thoughts
peace,
Aaron
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