Login / Register
 
Limiter on master bus, before or after mixing?
New Reply
Subscribe
#31
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #31
Lives for gear
 
CJ Mastering's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2010
Location: South Florida
Posts: 2,771

CJ Mastering is offline
I was talking about Peak. I never said RMS in any of my post.

So I guess we can drop this and part as freinds.. Or I at least hope we can..
Have a good night,
Cj
__________________


Mixing And Mastering Studio -Professional Mixing & Mastering Studio Providing Online And Attended Sessions.
Mixed And Mastered Best Album Of The Year By En-Sound
#32
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #32
Gear Head
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 73

JimHigh is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
when we master mixes. we tell out clients to have no processing on the master bus (Mix bus). We cannot undo any damage that was done.

The mastering process is the step to when you make your mix loud, not during the mixing process. no limiters should be used on the master bus, if your having it mastered. That's the job of the mastering engineer
cj
True, when your sending in a track for another to master, but for me, after I a/b my mix away from home, many times I just decide to export with the L1 turned on and thats it! -Not the way your supposed to do it, but it seems to work for me. Deadmau5 and Prydz have done this numerous times as well.

I would imagine this simple approach probably only works well on heavily compressed dance music.
#33
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #33
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: Miami FL
Posts: 10,182

rickrock305 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
You get a way better master form a mix that is peaking between -6 to -3Db then one that is peaking at -1 to 0dB
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
You get just as loud of a master form a mix peaking between -6dB to -3db as you would having the mix peaking at -1dB to 0db.




You never answered my question. if its the exact same mix, just peaking at different levels, why would one result in a better master? and if that were truly the case, why not just turn the louder one down a bit and master from there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Mastering View Post
Never said throw away. I send them back with Instruction on what the criteria is. How can you properly master a track thats peaking at 0dB with no headroom?
So if one of the top mix engineers in the world sent you his mixes which routinely peak at 0dB, would you send them back to him and tell him he was wrong?
#34
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #34
Lives for gear
 
Realziment's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles / Dublin
Posts: 2,214

Realziment is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post


You never answered my question. if its the exact same mix, just peaking at different levels, why would one result in a better master? and if that were truly the case, why not just turn the louder one down a bit and master from there?
Also interested to know this, i also read about guys doing mixes peaking at -15db in a previous thread i opened in the mastering forum.
#35
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #35
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: Miami FL
Posts: 10,182

rickrock305 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realziment View Post
Also interested to know this, i also read about guys doing mixes peaking at -15db in a previous thread i opened in the mastering forum.

WTF?
#36
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #36
Lives for gear
 
Realziment's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles / Dublin
Posts: 2,214

Realziment is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
WTF?
Here check it out i started this thread but look at the posts where the guys are talking about sending the mix at -18db. And an ME confirms one the best mix engineers he knows sends his mixes at this level also! Crazy. Ive only became good at really pulling back, i use to mix hella hot.
#37
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #37
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: Miami FL
Posts: 10,182

rickrock305 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realziment View Post
Here check it out i started this thread but look at the posts where the guys are talking about sending the mix at -18db. And an ME confirms one the best mix engineers he knows sends his mixes at this level also! Crazy. Ive only became good at really pulling back, i use to mix hella hot.
I think you forgot to post the link?

-18 is just...weird. maybe they calibrate their converters way out of wack or something. i'd definitely be interested to know the whys and the hows of that.
#38
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #38
Lives for gear
 
Realziment's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles / Dublin
Posts: 2,214

Realziment is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
I think you forgot to post the link?

-18 is just...weird. maybe they calibrate their converters way out of wack or something. i'd definitely be interested to know the whys and the hows of that.
Wow yes i did forget to post it! here ya go

If you mastered my song what peaks would you prefer? Help Please
#39
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #39
Lives for gear
 
illacov's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 4,048

Send a message via AIM to illacov Send a message via Yahoo to illacov
illacov is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
I think you forgot to post the link?

-18 is just...weird. maybe they calibrate their converters way out of wack or something. i'd definitely be interested to know the whys and the hows of that.
I used to end up with mixes at this level after I came back from the console because I wouldn't be slamming the master buss on it and instead would crank my monitoring chain so I could listen loud but not have the actual mix chain clipping.

I used to have them at -21 db lol.

My ME would still do great things with these mixes btw, he'd make up the gain with 2 channels of Neve pres and then run it into his mastering chain. Later on, I just started sending him stuff that was at -6db, but at first capture they were still coming in at -20 to -18, because I never changed the way I monitored. I would just do a digital volume increase to -6db in Cool Edit.

But I wouldn't be shocked if some people didn't even bump it up to -6 and just sent it in that way.

Regarding the loud mixing thing, I think you gain alot more by the way you capture the sources in the first place and as well the way the song is arranged (HELLO PRODUCTION VALUES ANYONE!!), if you are going for loudness.

There is always a sacrifice of some kind when you have these gigantic super dense tracks that have to be 2010 radio station loud after mastering. You're either losing some low end or punch or both for the sake of brainless volume.

The sad part is it seems like the mastered versions of the commercial stuff is so loud that the broadcast limiters completely squash them to get them into spec.

So they sound QUIETER on the radio.

I'm always reaching to turn up the radio stations so I can hear whatever I'm listening to and then turning down the CDs in whatever car I'm driving because they are super loud compared to the radio.

And to answer the original question, I completely prefer to have a compressor in parallel on the 2 buss than on it directly. I used to do this on my Yamaha MG series mixer (before I went crazy with technology) and engaged a foldback mix (that was on a separate buss) that blended a seperate buss (for aux mixes etc) back into the main mix. I would route all the channels to both the master and the foldback buss and blend the foldback mix in parallel on a separate fader. It definitely phattened up the mix.

Now I'm looking for the perfect compressor for that duty and I have my eye on one.

I wouldn't dare touch a limiter on the 2 buss for mixing though.

I leave that to mastering.

If its just for rough listening purposes then I use Stillwell Event Horizon. Pretty sweet limiter/clipper.

Peace
Illumination
__________________
Langston Masingale
Sales and Customer Support @ JJ Audio Mics, USA

JJ Audio Mic on Facebook!
**JJ Audio Custom Mics and Mods!!**

JJ Audio Mics Email (Langston/Sales and Customer Support)

Artists recently recorded with JJ Audio Mics:
The Goonies (Hip Hop/Experimental)(My Band)
Ronnie Spector, Baby Bash, Paula DeAnda, Z-Ro, Slim Thug and the list continues to grow...

http://soundcloud.com/illacov/jj-cd-vo-demo
#40
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #40
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Orlando
Posts: 3,944
My Recordings/Credits

Methlab is offline
Rules are meant to be broken. I don't think there are rules anymore. Just good mixes and bad ones.
__________________
Professionally played Basslines starting at $35 a Track. www.professionalbassguitar.com
#41
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #41
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: Miami FL
Posts: 10,182

rickrock305 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by illacov View Post
I used to end up with mixes at this level after I came back from the console because I wouldn't be slamming the master buss on it and instead would crank my monitoring chain so I could listen loud but not have the actual mix chain clipping.

I used to have them at -21 db lol.


What console?

Because when I mix on SSLs the sweet spot of the console is pretty high, they like to be driven a bit, which puts the output of the board very close to if not over 0 dBfs. There are ways to trim it back, but I would never trim it back that far.
#42
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #42
Lives for gear
 
illacov's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 4,048

Send a message via AIM to illacov Send a message via Yahoo to illacov
illacov is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
What console?

Because when I mix on SSLs the sweet spot of the console is pretty high, they like to be driven a bit, which puts the output of the board very close to if not over 0 dBfs. There are ways to trim it back, but I would never trim it back that far.
Oh dude it was a POS Yamaha MG12/4. LOL

The sweet spot was pretty narrow and I used to play it safe due to the bullshit summing amp stage it had.

When I upgraded to my custom summing system, I had Cinemag transformers on the outputs after makeup gain so overdriving the buss is the POINT on my summing mixer system.

Whole different ball game at that point. The MG12 has since been regulated to cue mixes.

Which SSL did you mix on?

I've never really read up on their PSUs or schematics (if there are any). That's pretty sweet how you could overdrive it like that.

I recall reading that some of the SSL boards used Jensen input transformers. Maybe this was urban legend?

I think the master output buss was transformerless right?

Peace
Illumination
#43
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #43
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: Miami FL
Posts: 10,182

rickrock305 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by illacov View Post
Which SSL did you mix on?

The 4000 E/G is probably my favorite, but I mix on the 4000, the 9000 J/K, the C200, and the SSL AWS. I like them all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by illacov View Post
I've never really read up on their PSUs or schematics (if there are any). That's pretty sweet how you could overdrive it like that.
Yea, the 4000 really likes to be driven, thats really where the sweet spot lies. the 9000 tends to fall apart a little quicker but still likes to be pushed. i've found the AWS also sounds good when pushed pretty hard. and the c200, despite being a digital console, also takes to it pretty well, tons of headroom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by illacov View Post
I recall reading that some of the SSL boards used Jensen input transformers. Maybe this was urban legend?

I think the master output buss was transformerless right?
Yea, some of the E series consoles used Jensen transformers on the mic inputs. Other than that, all the other inputs and outputs are transformerless.
#44
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #44
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 522

J CraQ is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
What console?

Because when I mix on SSLs the sweet spot of the console is pretty high, they like to be driven a bit, which puts the output of the board very close to if not over 0 dBfs. There are ways to trim it back, but I would never trim it back that far.
=) not to say its a good or a bad thing but dayam! some of you guys mix really hot! thats like +20dbu coming out the lines... I know the SSLs have a higher load capacity before they hit total distortion but dang... they cap out at like +28dbu I think. No wonder where all this flavor is coming from that the digital guys can't make up for itb. I never have access to any console since I mix mostly itb.. but dang you guys are driving those consoles like mad.

My interface preamps actually clip at -2dbu (-20dbfs)... This is why I originally mix at these levels.. But once switched to line mode the interface can take on +18dbu with an external pre... Are there nominal levels to hit the SSL in the manual? My recommended settings on my interface preamps "Yamaha i88x" are -16dbu... That's -34dbfs they want me recording at!!

Later
#45
24th August 2010
Old 24th August 2010
  #45
Lives for gear
 
illacov's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 4,048

Send a message via AIM to illacov Send a message via Yahoo to illacov
illacov is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
The 4000 E/G is probably my favorite, but I mix on the 4000, the 9000 J/K, the C200, and the SSL AWS. I like them all.



Yea, the 4000 really likes to be driven, thats really where the sweet spot lies. the 9000 tends to fall apart a little quicker but still likes to be pushed. i've found the AWS also sounds good when pushed pretty hard. and the c200, despite being a digital console, also takes to it pretty well, tons of headroom.



Yea, some of the E series consoles used Jensen transformers on the mic inputs. Other than that, all the other inputs and outputs are transformerless.
Cool!

I should dig up an SSL schematic and see if there's any 5532/4s and TLO72s in there! LOL

I always hear so much griping about the 5532/4s and TLO72s, I'm wondering if they really sucked so bad or if its just alot of yada yada lol.

Peace
Illumination
#46
14th December 2010
Old 14th December 2010
  #46
Gear interested
 
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 19

hefuriousrapper is offline
a limiter is only supposed to clip off peaks I believe and nothing else

for me its really helpful cuz it reduces clips w/o really changing the sound, which essentially eliminates the crappiness of digital mixing and meter watching

I think you should mix w/o one, and use a limiter to "tame" clips and peaks AFter the mix

read this thread about the process of recording and mixing, pretty good
Why do your recordings sound like ass? - Cockos Confederated Forums

don't get thrown by the title lol
#47
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #47
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 266

Send a message via AIM to reggiesears Send a message via Yahoo to reggiesears
reggiesears is offline
I mix without the limiter on the master buss. I control the transients on each one of the mix-busses themselves. Once my mix is completed I will throw a brick-wall on the master buss just to make sure nothing goes above 0. But that's just me... it works for me & I've had plenty of successful mixes that way. I just try not to step on the M.E.'s toes- but when I submit a mix to be mastered, it basically will sound radio-ready, leaving the M.E. to polish it up just a bit. Like I said, that's just me as I know that many people do it differently.
#48
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #48
Gear interested
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22

warrior545 is offline
I didn't have time to read all the replies that you got here, so I will try to answer as short as possible.

limiter before mixing and after mixing have different roles, and yet sometimes the same role.

let me make it easier:
putting a limiter before mixing will change your mixing techniques because the limiter will contribute his own characteristics, therefore it means that you are mixing through a limiter.

putting a limiter after mixing will change the sound you achieved so far but not always in a good way, sometimes good sometimes bad, maybe the balance will change and will need fixing or readjusting.

today a lot of home studios put limiters to hear how will it sounds like if they send it to a mastering engineer to squash it up, that's of course not a good test, because the mastering engineer have better skills using a limiter and his limiters are far higher quality than you can find in a home studio, so it will sounds, a lot a lot better.

now don't get me wrong, each way have it's own good and bad, but know this, most of the time you will put a limiter on the master fader, sound most likely will change.
so the answer to your question is to listen to the result, what happens when you put the limiter ? do you like it ? would you prefer it that way or may be fix it ? do you think the limiter adds to the total quality ? may be trying other limiter would sound better ?

try to find a great limiter and limit just a little, if you want to squash things up, I would advise you to go to a mastering engineer, or just get the best limiter you can find,
a quality limiter is needed for great results.
__________________
my musicians blog:

http://musicdm.wordpress.com/

you can feel free to join Anatomia Studios Page and to meet new musicians and producers:

http://www.facebook.com/Anatomia.Studio.By.Dudu.Mazig
#49
27th January 2011
Old 27th January 2011
  #49
Gear interested
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 12

APsi is offline
Limiter on master bus, before or after mixing?

Usually apply a limiter or compressor on your mix buss before you mix. Setting anything after can and most probably will effect the sound of your mix. If your gonna end up putting a limited on it before bounce, why aren't you mixing through it? Less surprises in the end.

Each plugin/compressor/limited has it's own character, over time one will recognize this 'sound' and determine if it helps ones mix or not.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
thecity / Electronic Music Instruments & Electronic Music Production
59
andersmv / So much gear, so little time!
2
blayz2002 / Music Computers
64
siddhu / Music Computers
16

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.