Who to Trust?

[Umlaaat]

I guess getting f'd over is something everyone has to go thru...

What do you when you meet someone who says they can shop your shit, but you don't really know them?

You get a 'good vibe', he seems like a 'good guy', but... In exchange for shopping your stuff he wants a cut, but whats fair?

My shit is copywritten/registered, etc, buit in the off chance that someone takes your stuff, are you really gonna spend $ to battle them in court?

[filterayok]

a manager takes 15-20%-------------------------------but it depends if your desperate-----who's he shoppin it too?? If he says he can get get you a 50cent cut, but he wants 50%....honestly...i'd take it....but If you're only dealin with little fees like maybe 2-10 thousand bucks, and you don't expect the record too make you much on the back end, 50% is too much----15-20 percent is fair---15's better....

[filterayok]

one more thing---just shop the beats with no drops, so they'll have a hard time actually using it on a record---they'll eventually want the files, and you gotta get paid before you send em-----as for someone copying....thats the risk you take....actually its common for another producer to "remake" your beat and call himself the producer---but in that case, you should at least get some publishing-----they might even offer you publishing in that case.... I work with a dude who makes beats, but theyre often too unrefined for a record....so i'll re-do the beat, make it professional sounding, and i tell him we'll split the production...but thats cause he's my friend--otherwise i'd be like yo, you got good ideas, but you're not "producing" a record...so here's some publishing since you wrote the parts, but i "produced" this...and i think that would probably hold up in court... I just did a record for sony australia so i sent the files so they could do vox....i had to split the production, and the other "producer" used the exact same sounds, except a few drum sounds, which sounded worse.... but you gotta say :how bad do i need this cut?? is it worth it?? YOU GOT NOTHIN TILL YOU GOT SOMETHIN!!!!

[Umlaaat]

hmm.. agreed.

but what constitues a 'manager'? last time i checked, some dude shopping yr shit so he can take a cut didn't quite make the list.

So if its like a buy out of one of your beats, would 15-20% still be a fair thing?

[beatzz]

Hey i would jump at that opportunity! Do u have anything to lose?

I have made calls before to apparent "managers", and these managers i contacted demanded i pay them $500 upfront, in order for them to shop my beats, they promised a whole lot like: "yeah im gonna shop it to roca fella, and defjam, and aftermath. Ill hook u up man." etc, etc,


Luckily i'm not that rich, but in the past if i had, had the money i would have fell for it.

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by Umlaaat

hmm.. agreed.

but what constitues a 'manager'? last time i checked, some dude shopping yr shit so he can take a cut didn't quite make the list.

So if its like a buy out of one of your beats, would 15-20% still be a fair thing?

Ever seen a manager contract?? A manager technically does not have to garuntee getting you work...so i think anybody that actually can bring you work can be looked at as not only a manager, but a GOOD manager------yes 15-20% is always worth getting a chance to make money that you wouldnt otherwise be able to make

[MarkusColeman]

Originally Posted by filterayok

...always worth getting a chance to make money that you wouldnt otherwise be able to make

exactly, if you don´t have to pay upfront and the person you want to work with doesn´t promise you astronomic income and a free industry-pass right away, or to get your work to those at the top of the charts...read: doesn´t promise you to "make you a star".

That works in the porn industry...or with people who live in a fairytale.

Other than that, there are some "good souls" in this industry, but it´s hard to find them. If you do, don´t believe you´ll be making money tomorrow and first and foremost, nobody will do it for free, because you´re such a genius.

Get your work out there and give it a try, or wait till you´re in your 60s and can tell your grandchildren: "Listen, I was up there with the best of them...in my mind".

[genericperson]

some thoughts that might help:

1) in sales, a 15% commission is very standard on a lot of business to business sales. like if you sell advertising space in a magazine, you would get 15% of the ad price.

2) think about non-exclusive deals and performance time windows. if he wants an exclusive on the right to shop the music (meaning you can't shop or rent it out anywhere else), tell him he has 90-120 days to get it placed, or it reverts back to you. that way your beats are not getting taken off the market and just sitting somewhere. if somebody cant get a beat shopped in 4 months, something's wrong (a song could take a lot longer).

3) you can specify a minimum "rate card" price for the beat. meaning the selling price of the beat must be at least $1000. anything above $4000 gets split 50/50 with you and him. that way your beat won't get sold for $20, and there is an incentive for him to get it sold for $7,500 or even more.

basically you want to put peformance fences around this person where they have to prove their value, or they get pushed out of the equation. you can adjust the numbers so they fit your situation. but any real sales arrangement has very real and defined numbers, performance incentives and goals.

you can also ask for references. he/she should be able demonstrate a track record of getting this type of work done. if they have never done this work before, give them 45 days to try to get one shopped. make them hustle.

"Well you might as well quit... if you haven't got it."
-Bugsy Malone quote

P.S. some friendly sales terms:
1) call it a "marketing arrangement" or "marketing agreement" rather than a "contract".
2) rather than telling him he needs to "sign a contract". tell him he needs to "O.K. the paperwork so we can get started"

(I have professional sales experience in case you haven't figured that out by now).

[Dos]

Hey generic,

interesting post.
Have you had any experience in dealing with any legitimate 'beat shoppers'?
If so, can you recomend any? I'm not too sure how the whole process works.
Are there dedicated companies that handle this sort of thing?
Do you send them beats a see if they're interested?
How does it work?

Tx

[genericperson]

im "in the lab" right now building up my beats and determining where i want to position myself in the market. i have placed several tracks into the professional market, but i have not "beat shopped" yet.

but when i do, i will definitely be following my own advice.

contracts are very important. they aren't a "threat" to anyone who is a legitimate professional. what they do is established standards, delivery times, and expectations that both parties mutually agree to. that way there is no misunderstanding.

also, in my professional sales experience (i'm talking serious business, not selling toasters at P.C. Richards), there are always clearly defined parameters. and NOBODY on the selling side gets paid one dime until the sale happens.

also, make sure you are never out of the loop on the sales transaction. the person buying the beat should pay *you* the full amount, and then you pay the marketer their commission. you don't release the full beat to the buyer until you are paid in full. just like a toll bridge, it should be set up so they have no way to avoid you. going through you is the only way to get to the other side.

one more quick thought:
if a person tells you they want to shop your beats without listening to them first, run away...far away. they should first listen to your product, and determine it is a valuable commodity worth shopping. why would someone shop a beat sight-unseen from a person they don't know? the beat could totally stink. a person who has legitimate pull and is going to do the real work will want a solid product to push, not just a "grab bag" beat they never heard.

when it's time for me to get into the marketplace with this stuff, i will be very intersested in how the contracts and compensation structures are set up. of course, i will do what i can to research different people and enterprises. but there will always be a performance agreement that i feel comfortable with, or i won't participate.

so you are going to want to formalize the process as much as possible.

what you don't want is an informal verbal agreement like "yo, my friend knows some industry guys. give him your beats, and he'll shop them around for you".

what you want is something like this:

"Roger Samuels has recently placed music on USA networks, ESPN, and he got three cuts with major label artists in the past 6 months. Those tracks are:...... ,....., and ...... One of them cracked the Hot-40 on the Rap charts. Roger wishes to shop three of your beats for 90 days. His prospects are, ...... and.... He is targeting $5,000 for each beat, but will not settle for less than $1,200 on any beat. He will be payed a 15% commission on any sale between $1,200 and $5,000. Revenue above $5,000 will be split 50/50 with Roger and the beat producer. The buyer of the beat(s) will pay (you) directly. Once the funds clear, you have 30 days net to pay Roger. Roger will be assuming all of his own expenses for shopping the beats (travel, phone calls, postage, etc.). Should any of these beats not be sold by........... the beats will revert back to (you). etc, etc., etc."

that's the idea. i just did that off of the top of my head. but it should have that kind of look. what you will negotiate are the details of the contract, NOT whether to have a focused contract or not.

if the product is good, and the seller is for real, there should be an arrangement that will make everybody happy.

[Umlaaat]

good stuff, man.

The complete track is kind of whats in question here. There are pros and cons to this situation. If the full beat is not on the cd, artist X may like it, but since its so short can't really feel it. The beat hasn't had time to mature in his head... Of course, if the full beat is there, than he can rip it.

Usually people want a verse and a hook, but if you give that, you may as well give them the whole track. So to prevent this, what do you do? I know some people will put an a capella over it, others may put a bit of white noise or some loop of some kind. Its hard to hear the beat like this, though. I want to maximize the beat effect, minimize the theft effect.

[Bigg_T]

Originally Posted by Umlaaat

I want to maximize the beat effect, minimize the theft effect.

Do you think that providing the beat on a 128bit MP3 would be sufficient? OR maybe the bad guys would still try to recreate it?

T

[Dos]

Originally Posted by genericperson

im "in the lab" right now building up my beats and determining where i want to position myself in the market. i have placed several tracks into the professional market, but i have not "beat shopped" yet.

but when i do, i will definitely be following my own advice.

contracts are very important. they aren't a "threat" to anyone who is a legitimate professional. what they do is established standards, delivery times, and expectations that both parties mutually agree to. that way there is no misunderstanding.

also, in my professional sales experience (i'm talking serious business, not selling toasters at P.C. Richards), there are always clearly defined parameters. and NOBODY on the selling side gets paid one dime until the sale happens.

also, make sure you are never out of the loop on the sales transaction. the person buying the beat should pay *you* the full amount, and then you pay the marketer their commission. you don't release the full beat to the buyer until you are paid in full. just like a toll bridge, it should be set up so they have no way to avoid you. going through you is the only way to get to the other side.

one more quick thought:
if a person tells you they want to shop your beats without listening to them first, run away...far away. they should first listen to your product, and determine it is a valuable commodity worth shopping. why would someone shop a beat sight-unseen from a person they don't know? the beat could totally stink. a person who has legitimate pull and is going to do the real work will want a solid product to push, not just a "grab bag" beat they never heard.

when it's time for me to get into the marketplace with this stuff, i will be very intersested in how the contracts and compensation structures are set up. of course, i will do what i can to research different people and enterprises. but there will always be a performance agreement that i feel comfortable with, or i won't participate.

so you are going to want to formalize the process as much as possible.

what you don't want is an informal verbal agreement like "yo, my friend knows some industry guys. give him your beats, and he'll shop them around for you".

what you want is something like this:

"Roger Samuels has recently placed music on USA networks, ESPN, and he got three cuts with major label artists in the past 6 months. Those tracks are:...... ,....., and ...... One of them cracked the Hot-40 on the Rap charts. Roger wishes to shop three of your beats for 90 days. His prospects are, ...... and.... He is targeting $5,000 for each beat, but will not settle for less than $1,200 on any beat. He will be payed a 15% commission on any sale between $1,200 and $5,000. Revenue above $5,000 will be split 50/50 with Roger and the beat producer. The buyer of the beat(s) will pay (you) directly. Once the funds clear, you have 30 days net to pay Roger. Roger will be assuming all of his own expenses for shopping the beats (travel, phone calls, postage, etc.). Should any of these beats not be sold by........... the beats will revert back to (you). etc, etc., etc."

that's the idea. i just did that off of the top of my head. but it should have that kind of look. what you will negotiate are the details of the contract, NOT whether to have a focused contract or not.

if the product is good, and the seller is for real, there should be an arrangement that will make everybody happy.

Thanks generic,

Let us know when you go hunting

[Dos]

Originally Posted by Bigg_T

Do you think that providing the beat on a 128bit MP3 would be sufficient? OR maybe the bad guys would still try to recreate it?

T

Good idea, i'd go even lower

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by Dos

Good idea, i'd go even lower

Dude, i think your shooting yourself in the foot.....just give 'em a loop with no breaks....they'll NEED the seperated instr. to put it on a record....and like i said----chances are the dude that would "re-create" it would probably charge more then you would to just GIVE em the beat...Logically they'd just pay you for the files....If your shit is copyrighted, just make that hsit bang, for the artists sake and yours....whats worse: splitting the production with some dude who just added a crash cymbal to your track, or 50 cent making an unconcious decision to not use your track cause it sounded weak....remember he probably listen to 20 PRISTINE tracks before yours, and on comes your dull, overcompressed beat, so he says "its hot.....but.......eh....NEXT!!"

hey but at least no-one took an unfair pecentage of ZERO

[Umlaaat]

Originally Posted by filterayok

Dude, i think your shooting yourself in the foot.....just give 'em a loop with no breaks....they'll NEED the seperated instr. to put it on a record....and like i said----chances are the dude that would "re-create" it would probably charge more then you would to just GIVE em the beat...Logically they'd just pay you for the files....If your shit is copyrighted, just make that hsit bang, for the artists sake and yours....whats worse: splitting the production with some dude who just added a crash cymbal to your track, or 50 cent making an unconcious decision to not use your track cause it sounded weak....remember he probably listen to 20 PRISTINE tracks before yours, and on comes your dull, overcompressed beat, so he says "its hot.....but.......eh....NEXT!!"

hey but at least no-one took an unfair pecentage of ZERO

nyuk nyuk.. thats funny shit, man.

I guess thats true. Artist X listens to hot, clear shit and then heres yrs, bad sound quality, track may be banging, but people don't have time to filter thru that to listen to the music.

So what do you do, filter? Do you go thru guys that have proven themselves, go thru friends of friends? What would you do if you met someone seemingly 'on the level'. Would you give him the complete track? Just a vs and hook?

what do you mean by "loop with no breaks"?

[filterayok]

in most cases, most songs, they're gonna want to isolate instrmnts for drops and intro's and outros...so they can't do that with just a two track of a continuous loop...and yea, i'd take the chance and let the guy shop it-----the files are the most important thing, and worse case scenario, your shit is copyrighted, and someone re-does your beat, and you sue for publishing, at least....The only thing that i'm always afraid of , is if i found a really hot sample that somebody could go loop up themselves, but hey, thats the price you pay for not being original....the compitition is REDICULOUS man...EVERYBODYS A PRODUCER everyon's got beats....just keep putting your shit out there...if its that good, ppeople are gonna come to you

[Umlaaat]

Originally Posted by filterayok

in most cases, most songs, they're gonna want to isolate instrmnts for drops and intro's and outros...so they can't do that with just a two track of a continuous loop...and yea, i'd take the chance and let the guy shop it-----the files are the most important thing, and worse case scenario, your shit is copyrighted, and someone re-does your beat, and you sue for publishing, at least....The only thing that i'm always afraid of , is if i found a really hot sample that somebody could go loop up themselves, but hey, thats the price you pay for not being original....the compitition is REDICULOUS man...EVERYBODYS A PRODUCER everyon's got beats....just keep putting your shit out there...if its that good, ppeople are gonna come to you

word.

but that goes back to my original post. Are you really going to pay lawyers to sue dude for 'copyright infring'? I would say that most of us aint rolling in it as of yet.

[Dos]

Originally Posted by filterayok

in most cases, most songs, they're gonna want to isolate instrmnts for drops and intro's and outros...so they can't do that with just a two track of a continuous loop...and yea, i'd take the chance and let the guy shop it-----the files are the most important thing, and worse case scenario, your shit is copyrighted, and someone re-does your beat, and you sue for publishing, at least....The only thing that i'm always afraid of , is if i found a really hot sample that somebody could go loop up themselves, but hey, thats the price you pay for not being original....the compitition is REDICULOUS man...EVERYBODYS A PRODUCER everyon's got beats....just keep putting your shit out there...if its that good, ppeople are gonna come to you

True.
Is it possible to copyright a beat with uncleared samples?

[killcrush]

I thought you could only copyright a melody or lyric, not a beat.

[paultools]

You can copyright the Sound Recording of the beat.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Dos

True.
Is it possible to copyright a beat with uncleared samples?

Nope!