Is there still space for raw/dirty hip hop in 2010

[excLOUsiv]

Originally Posted by fooloof

true dat, but i don't think cats back then were really looking for the grit; it was just there. the technology was different, both in production and recording equipment.

In a sense you are right, but at the same time the majority of west coast, southern, and mid-west Hip Hop that was coming out at the same time had no grit. It was clean and smooth sounding. The New York dudes (who were dominating Hip Hop at the time) were consciously aiming for a raw, hard, gritty sound. The point is, it really wasn't about what technology was available at the time.

[Nightshiftbeatz]

Originally Posted by KevWest

Im glad. I am tired of mainstream hip hop. Im not even sure what mainstream hip hop is anymore. Is it really just a person talkin over banging drums because thats all I hear in the mainstream anymore. The art is dead in the mainstream. I want to hear some good underground hip hop. But no I dont really check for Oddisee or Kev Brown. I am really into 9th Wonder, Alchemist, Havoc, Premier, Khalil, Babu, The Rza cats like that. Its hard for me to find much I enjoy anymore. I really like Black Milk also but I can never find his new music

I turned off the radio some years ago.
No Mtv,nothing!!!
There's nothing good out there.
I'm that type of guy that pitches the samples all the way down in the SP1200.
I love dirt and i don't care!What???!!!
I'm 38 by the way

[Killah_Trakz]

Originally Posted by KevWest

Everything is so clean the sterile these days. I am beginning to appriciate the sound but I miss the sound of the past in some ways. What is everyone else's take on this? Even the underground stuff these days doesn't sound very raw to me. I am getting old.

don't get me wrong I love the clean stuff like Dr. Dre and the outkast and all that but Im still with the dirt. Everyone should just go back to ISA soundblaster sound cards and sample thegrunge

[Go-Rilla]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Q-- Did The Temptations and The Four Tops have` all of that crap??
A--Nope. They had longevity.

now you're being naive. They might have not had "all that" but they most certainly lived "the life" to the fullest along with everything that came with it.
All your favourite soul legends shoved plenty up their noses back in the day and yes, back then you had groupie hoes too.

[mgthefuture]

I dont think they beats will die out...the grit and low bit rates, can be good for certain vibes.

I just believe people in todays era associate back pack rap with an era that's out of touch to them.

And alot of new underground rappers rap about the same things they were rapping about 10 years ago.

You think saws are repetitive? They are barely 10 years old....now take a delfonics sample, a filtered bassline, and someone with an odd voice talking about the struggle...and see how that makes a new generation feel.

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by excLOUsiv

In a sense you are right, but at the same time the majority of west coast, southern, and mid-west Hip Hop that was coming out at the same time had no grit. It was clean and smooth sounding. The New York dudes (who were dominating Hip Hop at the time) were consciously aiming for a raw, hard, gritty sound. The point is, it really wasn't about what technology was available at the time.

good point. but keep in mind that most west coast cats except nwa/dre were playing all their instruments/synths and not sampling. much of what they did was remakes, in the sense that they copied popular hits from earlier eras.

same goes for the southern stuff.

and don't forget muggs; all the cypress hill stuff was dirty as hell. i'd go so far as to say that he really popularized the sp-1200 sound.

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by excLOUsiv

But at the same time the classic Gangstarr albums were dropping then which was chock full of that. Not every song in the glory days of Hip Hop history had scratches and scratched vocal hooks. Scratched vocal hooks was pretty much Primo's specialty. He was THE dude that was mostly doing it. Keep in mind I'm not saying he was the only dude.

true dat. but also pete rock had scratching in most of his joints, so did dre on the west coast. i think most stuff from the early 90s had a strong scratching presence. i think that by 95 or 96, though, most joints had vocal-based hooks.

[excLOUsiv]

Originally Posted by fooloof

good point. but keep in mind that most west coast cats except nwa/dre were playing all their instruments/synths and not sampling. much of what they did was remakes, in the sense that they copied popular hits from earlier eras.

same goes for the southern stuff.

and don't forget muggs; all the cypress hill stuff was dirty as hell. i'd go so far as to say that he really popularized the sp-1200 sound.

That's true, but even in those clean productions with some instruments they still were sampling, kept it clean, and used the MPC 60 and Sp-1200 for those samples and drums. Those machines don't give automatic grime, dirtiness, and rawness just cause they are 12 bit. There's been plenty of clean sounding records made with them, and not only in the Hip Hop genre. In R&B and pop as well.

Muggs is a good point, but doesn't reflect what was going on in most of the WC mainstream scene at the time. It's clear his beat making influences were cats from the east coast, so no doubt he was trying to achieve that sound on purpose.

Good discussion.

[beat you down]

the sp 12 ring ?

i don't think it was a creative decision back then.
i'm sure you know they sampled 33 rpm records at 45 rpm to stretch its sampling time.
pitching them back down... well, you'd have to live with that ring.

i think it was only later on when people went for the sp ring as part of their sound.

[excLOUsiv]

Originally Posted by beat you down

the sp 12 ring ?

i don't think it was a creative decision back then.
i'm sure you know they sampled 33 rpm records at 45 rpm to stretch its sampling time.
pitching them back down... well, you'd have to live with that ring.

i think it was only later on when people went for the sp ring as part of their sound.

The point being is that you don't HAVE to do that to sample. Period. Just cause that technology and technique was what was available at the time and in use doesn't mean that's the ONLY sound you could produce with those samplers, and with multi-tracking if you wanted to make more complex beats you didn't have to rely solely on the machines limited sample time. Remember, that technology was obviously available at the same time too.

[beat you down]

Originally Posted by excLOUsiv

The point being is that you don't HAVE to do that to sample. Period. Just cause that technology and technique was what was available at the time and in use doesn't mean that's the ONLY sound you could produce with those samplers, and with multi-tracking if you wanted to make more complex beats you didn't have to rely solely on the machines limited sample time. Remember, that technology was obviously available at the same time too.

yes and no...

if you were making beats at home, i'd say the majority did, you'd have to cram as much samples as possible on a disk.

but yeah, you could make more complex stuff in an actual lab if you'd have the budget to do so. (beasties, paul's boutique for instance)

[excLOUsiv]

Originally Posted by beat you down

(beasties, paul's boutique for instance)

Too bad hardly anyone can get away with making an album like that, 3 Feet High & Rising and the Public Enemy albums. Those albums were art that is hard get away with doing nowadays.

There still is a small market for that type of thing, but Madlib and a few others seem to be the only ones that can make a career out of it, or at least they are the only ones staying true to it and not caring what the mainstream is doing.

Actually, who knows, cause the mainstream is starting to knock on Madlib's door. He is producing a good chunk of Erykah Badu's next album and the leaked tracks are dope. Who knows where that might lead.

[beat you down]

Originally Posted by excLOUsiv

...Actually, who knows, cause the mainstream is starting to knock on Madlib's door. He is producing a good chunk of Erykah Badu's next album and the leaked tracks are dope...

any links?



paul's boutique, 3 ft high... yeah, won't be happening any time soon.
... it could be done if they'd lay down everything themselves, like do a bunch of jam sessions with all kinds of set-ups and use those instead of records.
hell of a job though.

[BaySickLy]

Maybe the new face of urban culture is less depressed and oppressed! So now, the soundtrack to our lives is more celebratory and triumphant with trumpets and charging arrangements and swag. Maybe these elements have replaced the go to vibes of the 90s: grimyness, ill-streetness, non-melodic arrangements, dirtyness, overly angry/depressed. Now it's more about happiness.

This is a national generalization excluding pockets of culture. But as far as urban culture as a whole, we have graduated to a more mainstream and accepted position in society, which is what we were trying to do with the raw creativity of hip hop. Now that our calls have been answered and our talent acknowledged, we are less angry and stressed with the world. We are more confident and celebrating ourselves more and are happy being who we are.

This is reflected in the music since the music and the culture have a two way cause and effect relationship.

[beat you down]

Originally Posted by BaySickLy

Maybe the new face of urban culture is less depressed and oppressed so now, the soundtrack to our lives is more celebratory and triumphant with trumpets and charging arrangements and swag. Maybe these elements have replaced the go to vibes of the 90s: grimyness, ill-streetness, non-melodic arrangements, dirtyness, overly angry/depressed. Now it's more about happiness.

This is a national generalization excluding pockets of culture. But as far as urban culture as a whole, we have graduated to a more mainstream and accepted position in society, which is what we were trying to do with the raw creativity of hip hop. Now that our calls have been answered and our talent acknowledged, we are less angry and stressed with the world. We are more confident and celebrating ourselves more and are happy being who we are.

This is reflected in the music since the music and the culture have a two way cause and effect relationship.

there's A LOT of ''happy'' 90's hip hop.
it wasn't ALL grimey and angry.

[excLOUsiv]

Originally Posted by beat you down

any links?

YouTube - Erykah Badu - Umm Hmm

okayplayer - Hip Hop Music, Reviews, News, Interviews, Blogs and Discussion Board - Audio: Erykah Badu "Strawberry Incense (prod. Madlib)"

There may be another one floating around too.

And even more off-topic, and since I'm posting links anyways here's a link to a collab. Mayer Hawthorne from Stones Throw Linking up with Snoop Dogg.

YouTube - SNOOP DOGG MEETS MAYER HAWTHORNE

None of this is raw Hip Hop, but it's still good music.

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by excLOUsiv

That's true, but even in those clean productions with some instruments they still were sampling, kept it clean, and used the MPC 60 and Sp-1200 for those samples and drums. Those machines don't give automatic grime, dirtiness, and rawness just cause they are 12 bit. There's been plenty of clean sounding records made with them, and not only in the Hip Hop genre. In R&B and pop as well.

Muggs is a good point, but doesn't reflect what was going on in most of the WC mainstream scene at the time. It's clear his beat making influences were cats from the east coast, so no doubt he was trying to achieve that sound on purpose.

Good discussion.

you make a good argument. but i am wondering if the dirt developed as a necessity because cats had scratched up records and low memory in their samplers. then, the sound became a style and people continued to produce that way even after technology made it possible to do otherwise.

on a side note, do you think "C.R.E.A.M" was recorded in pro tools? i am positive the hook was recorded once and then copied and pasted for the rest of the song. i am asking because my prior belief was that most hip hop stuff in the 90s was going to 2-inch tape.

[BaySickLy]

Originally Posted by beat you down

there's A LOT of ''happy'' 90's hip hop.
it wasn't ALL grimey and angry.

it's what defined the era.

The broad scope is that in the past, "the keep it real era" was an insecure reaction to opression. The 80s babies (the 90s being a polished extention and peak of 80s materialism) had a competitive goal to fit into society which was still awkward due to class and race wars. The Internet was still young, the old old generation were still around with a voice, demonizing the young and change. Media itself was causing nationwide social tension with shows like in living color which were still allowed on the air. The sterotype of Urban Youth at that time had a lot of people feeling like they weren't sh1t, they were never gonna be sh1t, and their very identity was a cliche. This type of identity trauma left a lot of people angry and fighting for a better place in society.

Now it's 2010 and we have played out open racism, it's almost taboo and only a few generations away from being almost completely stigmatized. We have a non-white president and we all listen to Urban Pop.

So things are looking much better now than in the 90s. The sooner a young thug realizes that being confident is better than having a chip on his shoulder and he will get more girls that way, the healthier it is for his self esteem.

That why we have Nikki minajes and soulja boys. These are leaders of the new school where the listener was young enough to have never been oppressed and are confident and swag out and not homophobic (not afraid to wear skinny jeans) and they are happy and have lots of friends and don't feel like they are unloved and unrespected -(the reason for which one would produce and listens to angry music).

Now the music is less about being an angry insecure child, and more about being a confident happy man.

[excLOUsiv]

Originally Posted by fooloof

on a side note, do you think "C.R.E.A.M" was recorded in pro tools? i am positive the hook was recorded once and then copied and pasted for the rest of the song. i am asking because my prior belief was that most hip hop stuff in the 90s was going to 2-inch tape.

I don't think it was copied at all. I just gave it a listen and they are different.

[excLOUsiv]

Originally Posted by BaySickLy

it's what defined the era.

The broad scope is that in the past, "the keep it real era" was an insecure reaction to opression. The 80s babies (the 90s being a polished extention and peak of 80s materialism) had a competitive goal to fit into society which was still awkward due to class and race wars. The Internet was still young, the old old generation were still around with a voice, demonizing the young and change. Media itself was causing nationwide social tension with shows like in living color which were still allowed on the air. The sterotype of Urban Youth at that time had a lot of people feeling like they weren't sh1t, they were never gonna be sh1t, and their very identity was a cliche. This type of identity trauma left a lot of people angry and fighting for a better place in society.

Now it's 2010 and we have played out open racism, it's almost taboo and only a few generations away from being almost completely stigmatized. We have a non-white president and we all listen to Urban Pop.

So things are looking much better now than in the 90s. The sooner a young thug realizes that being confident is better than having a chip on his shoulder and he will get more girls that way, the healthier it is for his self esteem.

That why we have Nikki minajes and soulja boys. These are leaders of the new school where the listener was young enough to have never been oppressed and are confident and swag out and not homophobic (not afraid to wear skinny jeans) and they are happy and have lots of friends and don't feel like they are unloved and unrespected.

So you think the newer generation are less oppressed and you think they are more confident? I think the opposite. They are more ignorant and backwards than ever. They have to follow every stupid trend just to fit in. They have little sense of being themselves, and losing more and more of that sense due to constant programming from TV and music. The youth of today are programmed mindless drones that literally buy into anything and everything the corporations are selling to them. That's oppression, and it's the worst kind, cause these idiots have no idea how they are being affected and manipulated, why, and have no clue that it's even happening.

Flossing wealth and the inability to have real relationships with real women and being a player is the biggest sign of insecurity and having a huge need to over-compensate.

Promoting living life with complete ignorance and arrogance is really a sign of coming a long way?

I'd rather people talk about how things really are than throwing up a false image of ignorant ghetto over-compensation, and claiming it's truly a better life. It's mental slavery, cause if all you think about is money and bitches your pretty much under the thumb of those who stand to benefit from your ignorance and your need to "stand out" in a purely physical manner.

Just because there is a black president and people listen to Urban music, and a few black people can get rich from it, doesn't mean all those past problems don't still exist. What happens on your TV, in your mainstream music, sadly to say, is not the reality of every day life, and it's something that's truly NOT worth aspiring to.

[KevWest]

Originally Posted by fooloof

true dat, but i don't think cats back then were really looking for the grit; it was just there. the technology was different, both in production and recording equipment. also, the times were different. everybody had a job and money in they pocket.

ever go to southern kitchen on 6th and sprague?

havent been to Southern Kitchen in years. Its really good food though.

[CRACKPIPE]

I like what BaySickLy's saying. It makes a lot of sense to me.

[BaySickLy]

Originally Posted by excLOUsiv

So you think the newer generation are less oppressed and you think they are more confident? I think the opposite. They are more ignorant and backwards than ever. They have to follow every stupid trend just to fit in. They have little sense of being themselves, and losing more and more of that sense due to constant programming from TV and music.

Flossing wealth and the inability to have real relationships with real women and being a player is the biggest sign of insecurity and having a huge need to over-compensate.

Promoting living life with complete ignorance and arrogance is really a sign of coming a long way?

I'd rather people talk about how things really are than throwing up a false image of ignorant ghetto over-compensation, and claiming it's truly a better life.

Just because there is a black president and people listen to Urban music, and a few black people can get rich from it, doesn't mean all those past problems don't still exist. What happens on your TV, in your music, sadly to say, is not the reality of every day life.

Well I was talking about Urban kids, not "black people" which is everyone that has the Urban life outlook.

It depends on your experience and the level of contact you currently have with real life people in the streets. The patterns and trends in such environments (I'm from LA) can be elusive and one really needs to be well studied in sociologal systems.

You'd have to understand the profile of a human beings identity and the different effects trauma and education have on the human brain.

The situations are indeed getting better because the internet influences us all and knowledge is power. Everyone is collectively smarter and more politically correct. It's the cynics who can't format such a timeline of positive progress because their vision is blurred by personal issues. But in reality the world is moving toward a greater good weather you are or are not individually or people are or are not personally to you.

When I speak like this I speak in a grander scope of analyzing patterns and deriving helpful information from them.

For example, understanding why people like what they like now, and if you know why, maybe you can use that information to make music that is effective.

The point is Urban people are feeling less grimy as a whole so they have less appetite for grimy music.

[KevWest]

Originally Posted by mgthefuture

I dont think they beats will die out...the grit and low bit rates, can be good for certain vibes.

I just believe people in todays era associate back pack rap with an era that's out of touch to them.

And alot of new underground rappers rap about the same things they were rapping about 10 years ago.

You think saws are repetitive? They are barely 10 years old....now take a delfonics sample, a filtered bassline, and someone with an odd voice talking about the struggle...and see how that makes a new generation feel.

Im not really saying sampling is the answer either. It sounds like everything is just over processed and hit with a coat of bleach before its released.

[excLOUsiv]

Originally Posted by BaySickLy

Well I was talking about Urban kids, not "black people" which is everyone that has the Urban life outlook.

It depends on your experience and the level of contact you currently have with real life people in the streets. The patterns and trends in such environments (I'm from LA) can be elusive and one really needs to be well studied in sociologal systems.

You'd have to understand the profile of a human beings identity and the different effects trauma and education have on the human brain.

The situations are indeed getting better because the Internet influences us all and knowledge is power. Everyone is collective smarter and more politically correct. It's the cynics who can't format such a timeline of positive progress because their vision is blurred by personal issues. But in reality the world is moving toward a greater good weather you are or are not individually or people are or are not personally to you.

When I speak like this I speak in a grander scope of analyzing patterns and deriving helpful information from them.

For example, understanding why people like what they like now, and if you know why, maybe you can use that information to make music that is effective.

The point is Urban people are feeling less grimy as a whole so they have less appetite for grimy music.

You are right that SOME people are getting smarter and things are getting better for SOME people. Some people are actually getting more stupid and some people things are getting worse.

I can't help but think you're a bit of a victim of US propaganda and not really looking at the whole world and where it's heading politically on the grande scale, and actually know what's really happening, what's going on behind the scenes, where things are leading to on the actual grand time scale, and why.

I get the sense you look around your bubble and see less griminess, and figure..hmm...the world is getting better and the TV and what I read in college is right. Than you dismiss any other info. that is more pertinent to people who don't live in your backyard, and blame it on personal issues to keep your bubble intact, cause it doesn't fit in your particular version of reality.

You're intelligent, no doubt, but I see you've bought into your programming, and not really looking at the world. You have to look a little past than what's just a little further down the road to get the real point. You also have to delve a bit harder into history to help connect the dots, or else you'll believe that just cause you have an iPhone the rest of the world is going to get better and we are truly on a spiritually enlightened and scientific path to a future utopia, or whatever other BS your news is feeding you in your bubble.

[BaySickLy]

Originally Posted by excLOUsiv

You are right that SOME people are getting smarter and things are getting better for SOME people. Some people are actually getting more stupid and some people things are getting worse.

I can't help but think you're a bit of a victim of US propaganda and not really looking at the whole world and where it's heading politically on the grande scale, and actually know what's really happening, what's going on behind the scenes, where things are leading to on the actual grand time scale, and why.

I get the sense you look around your bubble and see less griminess, and figure..hmm...the world is getting better and the TV and what I read in college is right. Than you dismiss any other info. that is more pertinent to people who don't live in your backyard, and blame it on personal issues to keep your bubble intact, cause it doesn't fit in your particular version of reality.

You're intelligent, no doubt, but I see you've bought into your programming, and not really looking at the world. You have to look a little past than what's just a little further down the road to get the real point. You also have to delve a bit harder into history to help connect the dots, or else you'll believe that just cause you have an iPhone the rest of the world is going to get better and we are truly on a spiritually enlightened and scientific path to a future utopia, or whatever other BS your news is feeding you in your bubble.

Yeah I know you don't know much about me but I am not a victim of any of those things you mentioned. I lived in many places and countries and under multiple regimes styles even. In fact that is what helps me see certain patterns in our world because I have seen the dark and the light, the rich the poor, the old the the new, the fearful the brave, the happy the sad, and everyone in between. Like a chameleon, blending and learning and absorbing, changing with every environment studying the differences and comparing the similarities, over the years I just started to create an all encopassing profile for humanity -it all boils to: everyone just wants someone to hear what they have to say.

[KevWest]

Originally Posted by BaySickLy

Maybe the new face of urban culture is less depressed and oppressed! So now, the soundtrack to our lives is more celebratory and triumphant with trumpets and charging arrangements and swag. Maybe these elements have replaced the go to vibes of the 90s: grimyness, ill-streetness, non-melodic arrangements, dirtyness, overly angry/depressed. Now it's more about happiness.

This is a national generalization excluding pockets of culture. But as far as urban culture as a whole, we have graduated to a more mainstream and accepted position in society, which is what we were trying to do with the raw creativity of hip hop. Now that our calls have been answered and our talent acknowledged, we are less angry and stressed with the world. We are more confident and celebrating ourselves more and are happy being who we are.

This is reflected in the music since the music and the culture have a two way cause and effect relationship.

I think this is all great and true but since the subject is kind of turned in a different direction other than what I was really talking about (which was more of why cant one mix the SP1200 ringing style of drums with the clarity of a fantom in music these days) why is it only speak on happiness. There are always trails and tribulations in life or even politics. Theres a lot going on in the world to talk about but all rappers want to talk about is their swag. F*ck your swag! I don't care about how many chicks you paid to sleep with you. I want some music thats more than a r&b record without singing. If I wanted to listen to someone halfass sing I would go buy a Rhianna record

[KevWest]

Originally Posted by excLOUsiv

YouTube - Erykah Badu - Umm Hmm

okayplayer - Hip Hop Music, Reviews, News, Interviews, Blogs and Discussion Board - Audio: Erykah Badu "Strawberry Incense (prod. Madlib)"

There may be another one floating around too.

And even more off-topic, and since I'm posting links anyways here's a link to a collab. Mayer Hawthorne from Stones Throw Linking up with Snoop Dogg.

YouTube - SNOOP DOGG MEETS MAYER HAWTHORNE

None of this is raw Hip Hop, but it's still good music.

The first link is good progression for hip hop. This is where it should be these days. Still a bit cleaner than what I was thinking but its good music.

[rhodesp04]

like any product if there's a consumer that wants it, they'll be someone willing to provide it. i like my fair share of the old and the new. the latest thing that was kinda "dirty" that i liked was this:

Nottz - Shine So Bright Video

[fooloof]

Originally Posted by excLOUsiv

I don't think it was copied at all. I just gave it a listen and they are different.

yeah, you are right. i feel kind of stupid. i always thought they were copied because method has this intake of air right after the word "money" on every take. but, after listening closely, i am convinced they were all different. my bad.