stacking r&b vocals / doubling

jazzy655 · 22nd October 2005, 07:42 AM

So we are starting to do a lot more r&b in our spot. I've been doing an awful lot of listening, and am really starting to pick up on the techniques that guys are using to get those really smooth r&b vocals, and the really thick and wide chorus.

Is it just me, or are cats doing a TON of doubling. especially on the choruses.
I'm hearing stuff that sounds like it has like 9 different vocals. Like 3 different notes for a harmony, with each note doubled, on BOTH SIDE?!!

thats an insane amount of vocals. are they really recording that many vocals??
i'm wondering if they do it once (i.e. 3 notes, each doubled) and then kinda mult them and pan the mults to the opposite side.

It also sounds like they put some light chorus on those vocals sometimes.
If anyones got any good production tips for what i'm talking about here, hit me back!!

i know lots of people are wondering what some of the tricks are, specifically on the side of how to track the vocals for that kinda effect.

later...

thethrillfactor · 22nd October 2005, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzy655

Is it just me, or are cats doing a TON of doubling. especially on the choruses.
I'm hearing stuff that sounds like it has like 9 different vocals. Like 3 different notes for a harmony, with each note doubled, on BOTH SIDE?!!

thats an insane amount of vocals. are they really recording that many vocals??
i'm wondering if they do it once (i.e. 3 notes, each doubled) and then kinda mult them and pan the mults to the opposite side.

It also sounds like they put some light chorus on those vocals sometimes.
If anyones got any good production tips for what i'm talking about here, hit me back!!

i know lots of people are wondering what some of the tricks are, specifically on the side of how to track the vocals for that kinda effect.

later...

Its not doubles...

its actually triples.

Triple each note.

And pan and EQ them accordingly.
(
Not just hard left and right by the way but places in between).

You get a much bigger sound than working with doubles alone.

The exception could be the hi harmonies(usually an octave higher).

Those you can get away as a double.

Another trick is to do an airy version of the chorus tripled stacked.

Blend that in with the original chorus and you get a thick chorus with some "air".

I've mixed pop and R&B forever and i've gotten stacks at times that were 48 tracks deep.

Yes its a common thing.

Disco D · 22nd October 2005, 10:25 AM

i often stack an individual part 4 to 12 times.

unisyn · 22nd October 2005, 05:31 PM

I agree with Disco D I will stack at least 4 and that has to be an awsome singer most though are 6 to 8.

Disco D · 22nd October 2005, 05:43 PM

i prefer even versus odd numbers of backing tracks

rickrock305 · 22nd October 2005, 05:43 PM

yep, tons and tons of vocal stacks. i do at least four of each part usually, and usually there is at least a hi, lo, and normal part. Then most of the time i will also have them do a couple of whisper tracks for a little airyness like thrill was referring to. Then i pan them all over the place, sometimes adding a little chorus effect, sometimes delay, sometimes verb, sometimes all three or a combination.

jazzy655 · 22nd October 2005, 06:31 PM

wow. thats nuts. but i gets that is the dirty little secret that the guys with less experience like myself are missing.

so you guys gotta be bussing those tracks to process them. you're not eqing every single vocals on it's own are you, cause thats a lot of outboard / plugins lol!

rickrock305 · 22nd October 2005, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzy655

wow. thats nuts. but i gets that is the dirty little secret that the guys with less experience like myself are missing.

so you guys gotta be bussing those tracks to process them. you're not eqing every single vocals on it's own are you, cause thats a lot of outboard / plugins lol!

usually they get bussed according to what part, e.g the whispers go to their own bus, the leads go to their own bus, the high harmony goes to their own bus, etc. And then all these busses go to one master bus. But where EQ and compression are applied varies a lot.

thethrillfactor · 22nd October 2005, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzy655

so you guys gotta be bussing those tracks to process them. you're not eqing every single vocals on it's own are you, cause thats a lot of outboard / plugins lol!

Not necessarily true.

Sometimes the singer on a double,triple or quad might move and inch and that particular inch throws off the stack(phase shift) so you have to EQ that track differently.

Also i get tracks to mix where the vocals weren't recorded in a great vocal room so a certain pitch gets exagerated more than others so that has to be EQ'd and compressed differently.

I usually like to work in groups according to the notes:Low-middle-main chorus-hi.

And then i EQ/pan those and process them differently.

I also automate them differently.

Sometimes one note is stressed more on certain words, sometimes its the opposite.

Some parts of the song you want the backs to be more tucked in and others you want them wide.

It really depends on the song.

And by the way a little side note ...i don't always use every track in the stack(especially when its more than 4 tracks deep).

I'll take out tracks if it makes the chorus muddy(masking).

Of course i don't tell the producers this...but they never notice.

At the end of the day when it sounds cool all that matters to them is that they think they did it and they are the greatest vocal arrangers in the world.

Lawrence · 23rd October 2005, 01:25 AM

I do this a lot with R&B groups, have them all record each part as a group in unison one track at a time around an omni mic and do about 4 of each. 4X4 = 16 voices across four tracks for one harmony part. Multiply that by 4 (for the three other harmony parts) and you can imagine how thick and rich that might sound.

This is the beauty of a daw. You can take 16-24 backing tracks and group them all to a stereo pair and treat them with a single stereo comp and/or eq and still have enough physical tracks for the rest of your project. This is why my HD24 is gathering dust. Can you say "premix"?

Scoop away the mud, pan to taste and off you go.

Lawrence

rickrock305 · 23rd October 2005, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Not necessarily true.

Sometimes the singer on a double,triple or quad might move and inch and that particular inch throws off the stack(phase shift) so you have to EQ that track differently.

Also i get tracks to mix where the vocals weren't recorded in a great vocal room so a certain pitch gets exagerated more than others so that has to be EQ'd and compressed differently.

I also automate them differently.

Sometimes one note is stressed more on certain words, sometimes its the opposite.

Some parts of the song you want the backs to be more tucked in and others you want them wide.

It really depends on the song.

And by the way a little side note ...i don't always use every track in the stack(especially when its more than 4 tracks deep).

I'll take out tracks if it makes the chorus muddy(masking).

Of course i don't tell the producers this...but they never notice.

At the end of the day when it sounds cool all that matters to them is that they think they did it and they are the greatest vocal arrangers in the world.

Thanks thrill, all very good tips! I especially like the one about the singers moving around...very true and not something i always catch while tracking.

Hey thrill, mind PMing me a credit list of some sort, maybe an allmusic link or something? I'd love to hear some of your work.

jazzy655 · 23rd October 2005, 01:49 AM

are you guys doing this many stacks on the choruses of rap songs too? like on a 50cent chorus, you know the sound i'm talking about...

Disco D · 23rd October 2005, 01:56 AM

i do 4of the hook usually and 3 of the lead depending on the artist

jazzy655 · 23rd October 2005, 05:07 AM

ok then, there gotta be ALOT of vocaligning going on then. after all the vocals are laid, even with the slightest variation it seem they would become real messy sounding without a lot of serious alignment.

anyone know of an alignment plugin in the vst platform??

Disco D · 23rd October 2005, 05:52 AM

theres less than you think. if it doesnt sound lined up make em do it again!

s.d.finley · 23rd October 2005, 09:13 AM

If the rapper really is GOOD, there is NO need for vocalign.....you just need to make sure you are sending the talent a headphone mix w/ zero to minimal latency...

sdf

rickrock305 · 23rd October 2005, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzy655

ok then, there gotta be ALOT of vocaligning going on then. after all the vocals are laid, even with the slightest variation it seem they would become real messy sounding without a lot of serious alignment.

anyone know of an alignment plugin in the vst platform??

i try to stay away from vocalign. but then there's always those times where you weren't the one who tracked it and its really sloppy. I only use vocalign if i'm crunched for time, otherwise i'll manually cut up and slide stuff around.

jazzy655 · 23rd October 2005, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickrock305

i try to stay away from vocalign. but then there's always those times where you weren't the one who tracked it and its really sloppy. I only use vocalign if i'm crunched for time, otherwise i'll manually cut up and slide stuff around.

i see, thats totally do-able

rickrock305 · 23rd October 2005, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzy655

i see, thats totally do-able

but if your tracking it, jst make em do it right!

jazzy655 · 23rd October 2005, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickrock305

but if your tracking it, jst make em do it right!

right on

jonnyclueless · 24th October 2005, 01:14 AM

Yeah, Vocal Align adds artfacts to the sound much like Autotune does, only it has its own characteristics. It kind of smears the sound and you lose some of the crispness/bite/definition. It's good for when you have that artist who can't really sing and needs to copy the session singer (who can sing). In those cases, audio quality is the least of your concerns.

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22nd October 2005, 07:42 AM	#1
jazzy655 Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 404	stacking r&b vocals / doubling So we are starting to do a lot more r&b in our spot. I've been doing an awful lot of listening, and am really starting to pick up on the techniques that guys are using to get those really smooth r&b vocals, and the really thick and wide chorus. Is it just me, or are cats doing a TON of doubling. especially on the choruses. I'm hearing stuff that sounds like it has like 9 different vocals. Like 3 different notes for a harmony, with each note doubled, on BOTH SIDE?!! thats an insane amount of vocals. are they really recording that many vocals?? i'm wondering if they do it once (i.e. 3 notes, each doubled) and then kinda mult them and pan the mults to the opposite side. It also sounds like they put some light chorus on those vocals sometimes. If anyones got any good production tips for what i'm talking about here, hit me back!! i know lots of people are wondering what some of the tricks are, specifically on the side of how to track the vocals for that kinda effect. later...

22nd October 2005, 05:31 PM	#4
unisyn Gear interested Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: ATL Posts: 18	I agree with Disco D I will stack at least 4 and that has to be an awsome singer most though are 6 to 8. __________________ [b]Leave Nothin On The Table www.myspace.com/realsyndicatemuzic

23rd October 2005, 01:25 AM	#10
Lawrence Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 637	I do this a lot with R&B groups, have them all record each part as a group in unison one track at a time around an omni mic and do about 4 of each. 4X4 = 16 voices across four tracks for one harmony part. Multiply that by 4 (for the three other harmony parts) and you can imagine how thick and rich that might sound. This is the beauty of a daw. You can take 16-24 backing tracks and group them all to a stereo pair and treat them with a single stereo comp and/or eq and still have enough physical tracks for the rest of your project. This is why my HD24 is gathering dust. Can you say "premix"? Scoop away the mud, pan to taste and off you go. Lawrence __________________ The Audio Cave NFL Pool 2008

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22nd October 2005, 10:25 AM	#3
Disco D Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NYC / Sao Paulo Posts: 395	i often stack an individual part 4 to 12 times.

22nd October 2005, 05:43 PM	#5
Disco D Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NYC / Sao Paulo Posts: 395	i prefer even versus odd numbers of backing tracks

22nd October 2005, 05:43 PM	#6
rickrock305 Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Miami FL Posts: 5,960	yep, tons and tons of vocal stacks. i do at least four of each part usually, and usually there is at least a hi, lo, and normal part. Then most of the time i will also have them do a couple of whisper tracks for a little airyness like thrill was referring to. Then i pan them all over the place, sometimes adding a little chorus effect, sometimes delay, sometimes verb, sometimes all three or a combination.

22nd October 2005, 06:31 PM	#7
jazzy655 Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 404	wow. thats nuts. but i gets that is the dirty little secret that the guys with less experience like myself are missing. so you guys gotta be bussing those tracks to process them. you're not eqing every single vocals on it's own are you, cause thats a lot of outboard / plugins lol!

23rd October 2005, 01:49 AM	#12
jazzy655 Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 404	are you guys doing this many stacks on the choruses of rap songs too? like on a 50cent chorus, you know the sound i'm talking about...

23rd October 2005, 01:56 AM	#13
Disco D Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NYC / Sao Paulo Posts: 395	i do 4of the hook usually and 3 of the lead depending on the artist

23rd October 2005, 05:07 AM	#14
jazzy655 Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 404	ok then, there gotta be ALOT of vocaligning going on then. after all the vocals are laid, even with the slightest variation it seem they would become real messy sounding without a lot of serious alignment. anyone know of an alignment plugin in the vst platform??

23rd October 2005, 05:52 AM	#15
Disco D Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NYC / Sao Paulo Posts: 395	theres less than you think. if it doesnt sound lined up make em do it again!

23rd October 2005, 09:13 AM	#16
s.d.finley Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,916	If the rapper really is GOOD, there is NO need for vocalign.....you just need to make sure you are sending the talent a headphone mix w/ zero to minimal latency... sdf

24th October 2005, 01:14 AM	#21
jonnyclueless Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 800	Yeah, Vocal Align adds artfacts to the sound much like Autotune does, only it has its own characteristics. It kind of smears the sound and you lose some of the crispness/bite/definition. It's good for when you have that artist who can't really sing and needs to copy the session singer (who can sing). In those cases, audio quality is the least of your concerns.