Drums loops vs Programming

[nypkskll]

Silly me... I'll spend mad time tappin out Kick, snare, hats and bassline - while the paid dudes simply sample loops and add some stabs. What's the deal? The loops sound great actually... more of a dirty/real hip hop sound but... I would hate for people to be saying "oh, he sampled that from so and so" or "that's that Reason loop number 5".

And the thing with programming beats is you must get that swing right!!! Or else it's a nice try but stiff effort. The MPC used to do that much better than what I could do in Performer (back in the day). Guess that's why people hold on to those SP's and MPC's. Anybody got the Pro Tools sequencer hummin yet?

1- What do yall programmers set your swing to (75%, not exactly on beat, etc...) to get your track bouncin??? I need to do that in Pro Tools.

2- Input Qauntize sometimes can mess things up, huh?

3- Programming vs using the Loops of your new software thingy???? What's the verdict?

4- What is the medicine of the Root's production? They play on stage but I KNOW there's sampling on those albums, RIGHT? What ever it is, they get it right (and I'm talkin 1st and second album stuff... I have heard much of what they did after that).


Peace

[mars]

SWITCH OFF YOUR QUANTIZE!!!!!

...and learn to play with a groove.

Favorite trick of dancehall producers is quantized hh with unquantized kik, snr, bass and everything else.

BTW - there is a big difference between playing with a "feel" and playing out of time. Some do not know the difference!

[Offender]

I dont get all this auto 'swing' sh!t. Can't you people just program a drum beat yourself with the 'swing' factor in mind? I do everything manually.

[nypkskll]

Originally Posted by Offender

I dont get all this auto 'swing' sh!t. Can't you people just program a drum beat yourself with the 'swing' factor in mind? I do everything manually.

I hear you but even some gifted producers utilize "swing". You don't have to use it but for certain tracks you shouldn't tell yourself "I won't be da man if I use the swing on my programming". There's a time and a place for it.

[Fredrik]

Preprogramed loops is killing sample/beatbased music!

I mean in most urban styles it´s´not so much the melodies as the sounds and the
beats so atleast make them yourself.

[MarkusColeman]

Originally Posted by nypkskll

Silly me... I'll spend mad time tappin out Kick, snare, hats and bassline - while the paid dudes simply sample loops and add some stabs. What's the deal? The loops sound great actually...
And the thing with programming beats is you must get that swing right!!! Or else it's a nice try but stiff effort.....

The thing with loops is, if you are using single parts to build a new rhythm, it´s creative...otherwise, it´s like not only copying a preset sound, it´s like playing the same melody.

Quantisizing while recording kills the groove. You should also take in account, that your brain needs some time to realize it has to press a key/pad...so a negative delay on your recorded tracks (4-16 ms) or moving all notes back a bit, may bring a lot of feeling back.

Under 1/50th of a second (1000ms) may sound like nothing, but especially your high hats/percussion will sound/feel completly different.

If you have a straight beat, that feels "dead", you can simply put a second sound (low level) in front of it and change it´s volume envelope. I use that a lot on claps and bassdrums. If you reverse the "underlaying" sound, you get a subtle "reverse-reverb" sound, which also brings the sounds to life...

It´s easier than moving/editing every single hit by hand.

[nypkskll]

Originally Posted by MarkusColeman

Under 1/50th of a second (1000ms) may sound like nothing, but especially your high hats/percussion will sound/feel completly different.

If you have a straight beat, that feels "dead", you can simply put a second sound (low level) in front of it and change it´s volume envelope. I use that a lot on claps and bassdrums. If you reverse the "underlaying" sound, you get a subtle "reverse-reverb" sound, which also brings the sounds to life...

It´s easier than moving/editing every single hit by hand.

Thanks. Well explained.

[7rojo7]

you can re edit loops you use loops to get a groove program on top of that dj give me that beat stabs are like drum fills hits are like kiks in jazz you can leave the loop out and bring it back make music don't turn back

[Marky]

Originally Posted by MarkusColeman

Under 1/50th of a second (1000ms) may sound like nothing, but especially your high hats/percussion will sound/feel completly different.

1/50th of a second isn't 1000ms, it's 20ms. Sorry to be pedantic but thought I should point it out.

[streetbeats]

Originally Posted by Marky

1/50th of a second isn't 1000ms, it's 20ms. Sorry to be pedantic but thought I should point it out.

or maybe you misread marcus stating that 1 second equates to 1000ms ;)

[beatzz]

Originally Posted by MarkusColeman

your brain needs some time to realize it has to press a key/pad...so a negative delay on your recorded tracks (4-16 ms) or moving all notes back a bit, may bring a lot of feeling back.

If you have a straight beat, that feels "dead", you can simply put a second sound (low level) in front of it and change it´s volume envelope. IIt´s easier than moving/editing every single hit by hand.

Hey man excelleent advice!!!!!

But i don't undertsand the above two paragraphs..., if u are recording what you are playing from a midi keyboard, how would moving everything back (all the recorded midi notes) the SAME distance bring feeling back?


In the second paragraph when you say put "a second sound in front" do u mean a sixteenth note ahead? By volume envelope is that velocity? I'm just a little confused man!

If u could clean this up for be that would be awesome!!!

[MarkusColeman]

Originally Posted by beatzz

... if u are recording what you are playing from a midi keyboard, how would moving everything back (all the recorded midi notes) the SAME distance bring feeling back?

let´s say, you have a piano-loop that you want lay some drums to. you will play a kick, snare and hh-rhythm. the feeling is great when you play it, but when you play it back (after recording), it seems the feeling is lost...may be, the drum track was delayed through the audio/midi-latency that occurs, that being the reason for losing it´s original feeling.

Originally Posted by beatzz

In the second paragraph when you say put "a second sound in front" do u mean a sixteenth note ahead? By volume envelope is that velocity? I'm just a little confused man!

I don´t mean a set quantize...you could do it by playing the exact same groove twice, or by copying the existant and pre-delaying it (then, changing it´s pitch-/volume-envelopes).
hope that wasn´t confusing.

...and I was talking about 1 second=1000ms

[Rush909]

all I know about this stuff is that you gotta do whatever to make the track hot.... for example, I just found out that "lose control" by missy is basically a complete lift of Cybotron "clear"... I'm talking the beat, keys and FX! wow! I mean I thought that track was pretty inspired, so old skool, and well... it is pretty old skool :) circa 83!...

ok so they did not do alot of work, but hey It still gets the club moving... creative in it's own way I guess... again, whatever is needed to get people to feel alive at the end of the day is what is my job as a producer... most kids (as well as me apparently) do not know where the beats are coming from, only that it's hot (or not!)

r.

[MarkusColeman]

Originally Posted by Rush909

all I know about this stuff is that you gotta do whatever to make the track hot...

hey, thanks for posting the "Missy" example...makes you think about how much of today´s producers´ work is actualy THEIR work. what is a little disturbing about that "inspiration"-thing is, how the producers won´t tell you about those who deserve the "real credit". be it cover-versions or ghost-producing...
but I guess that doesn´t matter anyway.

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by MarkusColeman

hey, thanks for posting the "Missy" example...makes you think about how much of today´s producers´ work is actualy THEIR work. what is a little disturbing about that "inspiration"-thing is, how the producers won´t tell you about those who deserve the "real credit". be it cover-versions or ghost-producing...
but I guess that doesn´t matter anyway.

definition of a producer: The guy who's name appears after the words "produced by." And that's it!!! Doesn't mean they programmed, sampled, or had anything to do with the actual recording....As a producer, after you've figured out how to make a record, the next step is to figure out how to get your name on that line, cause that line's what's gonna get you more work...In actuality, that line's probably MORE important then making the record...Also, don't create rules based on "honor" or integrity....everything and anything is fair game...use loops if the loop sounds ill....hell, That first Eve joint, that swizz beat track (watch yall ni##gas want) is just somebody hitting AUDITION on the carnival... And "owe me back" by NAS is just hitting AUDITION on the proteus...NOBODY CARES (except your peers, who'll be filled with jealous rage, cause you made a hit by doing something they consider "dishonerable"). You can call them up and apologize on the way to the bank..

[MarkusColeman]

Originally Posted by filterayok

You can call them up and apologize on the way to the bank..

this sounds like a "101"...the problem with me is, that when you don´t pay credit where it´s due, you might end up seeing the 10 guys you "ripped off" combining their forces, kicking your ass out of the door. nah, that won´t happen, since there can be only one Highlander, right? everybody wants to be like Mike, but I would rather work with five Scottie Pippens; chances going up for winning the ring...

[filterayok]

Originally Posted by MarkusColeman

this sounds like a "101"...the problem with me is, that when you don´t pay credit where it´s due, you might end up seeing the 10 guys you "ripped off" combining their forces, kicking your ass out of the door. nah, that won´t happen, since there can be only one Highlander, right? everybody wants to be like Mike, but I would rather work with five Scottie Pippens; chances going up for winning the ring...

By "dishonorable" I mean using a loop, or sample, not STEALING... I just know there's mad dudes who don't wanna use a loop cause it's not THEIR work, or who are so proud to say "I don't use samples." And I'm saying NOBODY CARES---use whatever--your job is to make it sound good,,,and fight to the death to get the credit you deserve...

[MarkusColeman]

Originally Posted by filterayok

I just know there's mad dudes who don't wanna use a loop cause it's not THEIR work, or who are so proud to say "I don't use samples." And I'm saying NOBODY CARES---use whatever--your job is to make it sound good,,,and fight to the death to get the credit you deserve...

Thanks for clearing up the "stealing" part...
Whoever says "I don´t use samples" is a liar. Your Triton, your XV 5080 contains samples If you use a guitar sample, chop it up, cut it, do something creative with it; more power to you! But I would find it boring after some time, if my musicmaking was just playing some loops from the Total Hip Hop sample cd. I liked the "De La Soul is Dead" approach, where they listed all their sources (and got sued by The Turtles for the "You showed me" song). 1,1 million bucks (back then!!!) and ended up paying some 50-60 grand. That´s the "and fight to the death to get the credit you deserve..." part, just from the originators point of view
Even though I would love the sample-rights to be more "customer friendly".

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by MarkusColeman

I would love the sample-rights to be more "customer friendly".

Yes indeed artists whos records might be 30 years old and most probably are forgotten should be grateful that they are being sampled! As long as it´s clear that the samplist does not claim do have written it, I mean here are someone who thinks that the original has interesting parts or sounds that might not have been recognised from the beginning, decides to use it and make a different interpretation.

I think a percentage would be fair.

It should really apply only when melodies are involved too, I mean if there is an interesting sound on a record, thats probably due to the wierd way it was miced or mixed so the credit should go to the engineer then, or possibly a session musician but this never happens, no how fair is that?

I think it´s pretty safe to use singel sounds, horns or kords and def. drums again from a moral point of view this has little or nothing to do with the actual score once it´s taken out of it´s context.

BTW everybody uses the same cords anyway wich proves my point that it´s the actual sound that is interesting from a samplists point of view otherwise a rompler might just as well be used.

[MMinton82]

yeah the drummer for james brown is probobly the most sampled and to my knowledge has never received a royalty for it. i mean im sure it makes him feel good that everyone wants to sample his work but a little official credit would be nice

[Dor]

Originally Posted by MMinton82

yeah the drummer for james brown is probobly the most sampled and to my knowledge has never received a royalty for it. i mean im sure it makes him feel good that everyone wants to sample his work but a little official credit would be nice

I remember hearing that MC Hammer was the first artist to break James Brown off some $$ for sampling. Not sure if the band members were paid their %.

[jebjerome]

all I know about this stuff is that you gotta do whatever to make the track hot.... for example, I just found out that "lose control" by missy is basically a complete lift of Cybotron "clear"... I'm talking the beat, keys and FX! wow! I mean I thought that track was pretty inspired, so old skool, and well... it is pretty old skool :) circa 83!...

And Cybotron got it from Kraftwerk and Bambataa got it from Kraftwerk too(don't remember who was first out of those 2. I think Afrika Bambataa...)

[beatzz]

Originally Posted by MarkusColeman

let´s say, you have a piano-loop that you want lay some drums to. you will play a kick, snare and hh-rhythm. the feeling is great when you play it, but when you play it back (after recording), it seems the feeling is lost...may be, the drum track was delayed through the audio/midi-latency that occurs, that being the reason for losing it´s original feeling.

ok i understand this, but if the notes were delayed due to latency, u would want to shift everything forwards.....not backwards.

[MarkusColeman]

Originally Posted by beatzz

ok i understand this, but if the notes were delayed due to latency, u would want to shift everything forwards.....not backwards.

sorry beatzz, but you are simply wrong. you imply that there is a negative delay (read: reaction before action), which as far as I know this universe, is not existing in any form...

recording chain, 3ms midi and 3ms audio-output latency:
0ms (your action) -----> 3ms (recording/midi delay) -----> 6ms (audio output) - 6ms = 0ms delay

shift it BACKWARDS by 6ms and you are hearing the "live" input (which is not true in detail, as a 3ms delay means, the audio output in such a chain takes place anywhere between 0-12 ms, but that´s another topic ("timing"))

your suggestion:
0ms (your action) -----> 3ms (recording/midi delay) -----> 6ms (audio output) + 6ms = 12ms delay

if your midi interface has a 6ms midi AND your audio card 6ms latency, you hear the audio anywhere between 0-24 ms and so on...

anything UNDER 12ms of latency is quite playable, but you´ll get the "MPC" timing at (combined) 6ms. the only midi device I know that works under such latency, is the Unitor MKII using MacOS9...the other would be "Notator" on an Atari with it´s midi-interface...if you set up everything correctly. MIDI has always been the biggest bottleneck in the chain.

so to be able to play drums "live" in your softsynth/-sampler, you need a chain that guarantees a combined delay of under 6ms. this is hard to achieve, but possible...

(corrected the "ms"-data as it wasn´t correct)

[beatzz]

tru tru man! srry about that, and thank you for the explanation!

that's tuff.