Help me master compression once and for all

[mgthefuture]

Alright, i think it's about time I nail this compression problem of mine on the head once and for all now.

I've been watching videos on "mastering", using audition, using sonnox, and other tools, and i pay very close attention to EQ and Compression segments.

Of the years i been producing, I've been pretty comfortable using compressor presets or mixing TO the compressor. But now i'm really trying to get my compression "mastery" So i can take things to another level.

My biggest question is what parameters and objectives do you set out to fix when you use a compressor?

I know its a level/dynamic processor, I know when things reach a threshold, it knocks it down by the ratio.

I think the one thing I can't get around my head is how do you go about setting a good threshold. Whats the diff in setting it to 9 and knocking down 3 VS setting it to limit at 6 or 8 and knock down 2?

And the release/attack knobs for BUS compressor and MASTER compression...i always see presets or guides online say set attack to fast, and release to 50ms range....why? What are you trying to get it to REALLY do... I do know it affects the transients in some way or another, but how do u detect that its doing too much to them without printing each time you set it? I can detect pumping, but i cant detect whether or not im a MAXIMUM compression VS barely compressing.

I do know the difference between clippers, limiters, and compressors...but what are the specefic uses in them, if you can technically use a limiter to solve most of those peaking problems?

Let's begin!

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by mgthefuture

Alright, i think it's about time I nail this compression problem of mine on the head once and for all now.

I've been watching videos on "mastering", using audition, using sonnox, and other tools, and i pay very close attention to EQ and Compression segments.

Of the years i been producing, I've been pretty comfortable using compressor presets or mixing TO the compressor. But now i'm really trying to get my compression "mastery" So i can take things to another level.

My biggest question is what parameters and objectives do you set out to fix when you use a compressor?

I know its a level/dynamic processor, I know when things reach a threshold, it knocks it down by the ratio.

I think the one thing I can't get around my head is how do you go about setting a good threshold. Whats the diff in setting it to 9 and knocking down 3 VS setting it to limit at 6 or 8 and knock down 2?

And the release/attack knobs for BUS compressor and MASTER compression...i always see presets or guides online say set attack to fast, and release to 50ms range....why? What are you trying to get it to REALLY do... I do know it affects the transients in some way or another, but how do u detect that its doing too much to them without printing each time you set it? I can detect pumping, but i cant detect whether or not im a MAXIMUM compression VS barely compressing.

I do know the difference between clippers, limiters, and compressors...but what are the specefic uses in them, if you can technically use a limiter to solve most of those peaking problems?

Let's begin!

Really,its all about using your ears.
Just keep twiddling knobs until it sounds right.
Experiment with the threshhold knob versus the attack and release and just hear what happens.

[Entrainer]

Buy a copy of "Mixing with your Mind"
by Stav.

The compression technique he teaches
in that book is really good.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Entrainer

Buy a copy of "Mixing with your Mind"
by Stav.

The compression technique he teaches
in that book is really good.

thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

[Lrmusic]

Originally Posted by Entrainer

Buy a copy of "Mixing with your Mind"
by Stav.

The compression technique he teaches
in that book is really good.

Yep, this one covers compression on individual tracks pretty well. Does it work for master bus compression as well though?

[Entrainer]

I think so.

Been using that with sidechain, HPF with good results.

Actually, with Elephant and limiting as well.

[mgthefuture]

Well until i buy the book..what can you tell me from your own experience.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by mgthefuture

Alright, i think it's about time I nail this compression problem of mine on the head once and for all now.

I'll answer your question and I hope this helps:

In Mastering, compression is used to make the track louder and to glue the mix together. All in all, my main focus is loudness but not slam the dynamics of the song. So here's how you do this.

You use a mastering compressor (very important), you set it like this:

Slow attack, Fast Release to shave off the peaks.

Ratio of 2:1 and lower so that it doesn't reduce the gain so much and too fast.

Set the threshold so that it goes at max -1db or possibly -1.5db gain reduction (on the VU), depending.

Set the Makeup Gain to 1 or 1.5, depending on the gain reduction.

This will shave off some of the transients and will be less hard on your limiter.

I really hope this helps... It is about the ears and the song but I'm just trying to set you in the right direction.

[mgthefuture]

Good looks Chris, imma try that on my next project and see how that limiter responds.

And why 2db reduction as the limit in comparison to some who say 3-6

Is it just to keep nothing from competing with the loudest sounds?

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by mgthefuture

Good looks Chris, imma try that on my next project and see how that limiter responds.

And why 2db reduction as the limit in comparison to some who say 3-6

Is it just to keep nothing from competing with the loudest sounds?

Because I find that if you slam it to 3-6 it's going to sound squished and unnatural. I've been able to compete with the loudest stuff, hell I got a track to -6.5rms and it still sounded musical to my ears. I achieved it with the elysia mpressor plugin. The trick to loudness is really in the mix. You just have to mix with loudness in mind, meaning, compressing tracks, shaving bass at the right spots etc etc. It needs to be shown, it's hard to explain I find. Using other songs as reference is always the best way to achieving what you really want. You don't want to think that your mix is great and then A/B it and realize that you're missing bass, vox too far, not enough treble etc.

[Storyville]

With respect to Chris, I believe he is short changing the issue.

In regards to using compression for mastering, how you eq the sidechain is equally as important as the threshold, the ratio, attack, release, and total gain reduction. You really can't complete the puzzle without knowing the ins and outs.

But I don't quite think that's what you are asking.

The problem is that you are only seeing the big picture, ie, the gain reduction. That's just a number. It doesn't tell you what it's doing, just how much it's doing it.

I think of a compressor as an envelope shaper of sorts. An easy example is if your snare has a super fast, piercing attack, you can use a compressor to round that off and make it sound a bit meatier. To go further, let's say your snare tap 0dbFS. You set your threshold to -10 at a 2:1 ratio. That yields 5db of gain reduction. The compressor begins rounding off the transient once the threshold is breached at -10. Now, try the same signal but set the threshold at -5, with an inf:1 ratio. This will still yield 5db of gain reduction. But notice how one sounds remarkably different than the other. The first has a thick beefy sound. The second has a hard snappy sound, and seems to actually highlight a certain frequency between 1k and 3k in your snare.

Take time with your compressor and listen to how it effects the texture of the instrument or voice. Go to the extremes (attack 1ms vs. attack 4000ms) and see what the difference is, then find the point that works best. Listen to the instrument in solo mode just to understand the effect, and then tweak it to where it sits best in the whole mix.

Mixing with your Mind basically explains that you can best here attack and release by catching the entire signal with the threshold, and setting the ratio as high as it can go. The changes in attack and release will be most apparent.

The same settings on one source will yield completely different results on another, and different compressors act differently. So, ultimately, this is something you have to learn on your own. Hope that helped.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by Storyville

With respect to Chris, I believe he is short changing the issue.

The main reason for this is that I have my tricks and cannot, and will not reveal them Clients pay for knowledge too!

[azrael kennedy]

Originally Posted by mgthefuture

Good looks Chris, imma try that on my next project and see how that limiter responds.

And why 2db reduction as the limit in comparison to some who say 3-6

Is it just to keep nothing from competing with the loudest sounds?

do not listen to chris, he is the clown of this message board. he has no clue wtf he is talking about ever.

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by chrislago

The main reason for this is that I have my tricks and cannot, and will not reveal them Clients pay for knowledge too!

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[Chris Lago]

I'm surprised that XHipHop hasn't been banned yet... For jumping at me by the throat every time I post anywhere.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by chrislago

The main reason for this is that I have my tricks and cannot, and will not reveal them Clients pay for knowledge too!

Well, you now how I feel about engineering secrets. Not that sharing all my tips earns me much business, but then again, this is a forum for engineers, not clients. Unless someone decides to take me up on the suggestion of paying for some studio time with me and seeing how things happen first hand. It really is a great way to learn....

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by Storyville

Well, you now how I feel about engineering secrets. Not that sharing all my tips earns me much business, but then again, this is a forum for engineers, not clients. Unless someone decides to take me up on the suggestion of paying for some studio time with me and seeing how things happen first hand. It really is a great way to learn....

There's too much stuff that I do that can't be explained over the net. I wish I could but it depends so much on the songs and the guy working on it (me) that the only way to learn is to sit right next to me and check what I do. Why this? Why that? It's because it sounds good to my ears. I definitely agree with you.

[mgthefuture]

I dig alot of what yall are saying

here is a mixdown from the summer i did:

zSHARE - rfbvolume6demoreel.mp3

Various beats, sounds, emphasis, and arrangement...

but i used similar plugins and methods to get each sound.

So im already doing ok...its just trying to take it to another level.

Im in the habit of just getting reduction..and not so much shaping.

Like learning the difference in the 2...than expanding to getting custom feels based on different compressors..so when i invest, i dont waste money on redundancy, or something thats not overall useful.

Im considering getting a firewire steinberg interfact, going cubase, and getting a NEVE or API strip...and some funky compressors like the Joe meek greens from ebay..and so on..just for colors...

but i mean ...i need to know why and how, surely first.

Special thanks for someone typing a paragraph out of mixing in your mind, for me too...thats halped

Right now...im just back to the youtubes.

And that Mpressor plugin looks crazy, is it comparable to a Flux or Sonnox expander???

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by mgthefuture

I dig alot of what yall are saying

here is a mixdown from the summer i did:

zSHARE - rfbvolume6demoreel.mp3

Various beats, sounds, emphasis, and arrangement...

but i used similar plugins and methods to get each sound.

So im already doing ok...its just trying to take it to another level.

Im in the habit of just getting reduction..and not so much shaping.

Like learning the difference in the 2...than expanding to getting custom feels based on different compressors..so when i invest, i dont waste money on redundancy, or something thats not overall useful.

Im considering getting a firewire steinberg interfact, going cubase, and getting a NEVE or API strip...and some funky compressors like the Joe meek greens from ebay..and so on..just for colors...

but i mean ...i need to know why and how, surely first.

Special thanks for someone typing a paragraph out of mixing in your mind, for me too...thats halped

Right now...im just back to the youtubes.

And that Mpressor plugin looks crazy, is it comparable to a Flux or Sonnox expander???

I think the best way to judge is to try it against both expanders. Do you mean the inflator?

[gorillainthemix]

lol@Xhiphop
I feel ya, homie



OP:
there are no rules when it comes to compression, but there are "general" settings when applying it to certain sources. Then again these guidelines are just a culmination of what has been done on an average over the history of compression. Eventually it comes down to what suits you; 6 dB GR on a vocal might sound good to me, but crap to you...The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by The Dutch Master

lol@Xhiphop
I feel ya, homie



OP:
there are no rules when it comes to compression, but there are "general" settings when applying it to certain sources. Then again these guidelines are just a culmination of what has been done on an average over the history of compression. Eventually it comes down to what suits you; 6 dB GR on a vocal might sound good to me, but crap to you...The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

6db GR on vocals sound good to me too, you're not alone!

[Agzilla]

Get Mixing with Your Mind as stated!!!

Zz.

[solidstate]

Originally Posted by chrislago

I'm surprised that XHipHop hasn't been banned yet... For jumping at me by the throat every time I post anywhere.

And I'm surprised you're still annoying ppl with your posts man. You're the one should be banned, for good this time. You can't possibly expect that ppl take you seriously here after that thread, do you?! Yet here you're.. In every fvcking thread, AGAIN!!! Stop acting like a big time engineer and grow the fvck up man..

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by chrislago

The main reason for this is that I have my tricks and cannot, and will not reveal them Clients pay for knowledge too!

....thing is, if someone is good....as in good......they could share ALL their tricks with you and you still couldn't do what they can do. Because the part that makes the difference is contextual and can't be readily shared, only learned within your own modus operandi and the context of your own perception. So I wouldn't worry about sharing tricks mate

To the OP: Try messing with quite extreme settings to make the comp pump over the top and then tweak attack, release, then threshold and ratio one at a time and see what it does when exaggerated. When you've got it doing some desired 'envelope shaping' like Story rightly calls it, just back off some. Then A/B with bypass gain matched and probably back off some more...or not, depending on desired effect. Basically get the thing doing too much of the RIGHT shapes first, so you can time the attack release easily to the signal and then decide how much of this shaping you want by threshold and ratio. Be aware of threshold being how early in the signal level it grabs it and ratio how hard it does when it does. Experiment. Have fun

[Entrainer]

MPressor is nice for a plugin. I wouldn't use the make-up gain though...
adds color (not good color, IMO)

Trick is to feed the sidechain of the MPressor with an exact copy of
your mix (or on a send). Filter the low-end out of the copy/send
with a HPF to taste.

This should be done after the compressor is working, otherwise you'll
hear no difference.


RE: Mixing w/ your Mind. Sorry I can't share the exact technique... he
asked readers not to and I respect his intellectual idea. I would share if
I created it, but I emailed him a few times and he seems like a cool dude.


The Chris Lago settings work sometimes, but I find more often on the
Drum Buss. Really, it's about each source...


The compressor as an envelope shaper is also how I see it. Compression
alone does not result in loudness. There are many processes combined...
eq, compression, limiting. Some subtle drive can be included as well...
a lot of what I like about some outboard compressors are the input/output
stages. Can't be done in the computer to my satisfaction.


Also helps to write for loudness, which I find less = more. Getting rid of any
non-essential elements taking up headroom.


I hate absolutes, but lately I use compression for groove, eq + limiting for
loudness. Crazy dynamics on a track by track basis should be taken care
of before the master buss compression.

[illacov]

I would almost want to ask why you would use a compressor for volume in mastering and not the volume knob?

Or if the levels are that low, why not something like a 1292?

Just curious.

I will just be quiet now. Welcome back Chris.

Peace
Illumination

[Silver Sonya]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

....thing is, if someone is good....as in good......they could share ALL their tricks with you and you still couldn't do what they can do.

Truer words: never spoken.

- c

[mgthefuture]

Oh, im not just using a compressor for any one reason.

The only time i throw it on a bus is to achieve this "glue it together" vibe, cats was raving to me about. Along with their presets. even now, ir eally dont get what the hype is about. Altho in a few tracks, it sounded good with it, in comparison to without. But that was me just playing around.

The biggest problem with what i do, is whenever im "finished" with an instrumental its usually going online: Radio Friendly Beats

and from there in the rappers hand to 2 track, fans hand to listen on the ipod, or just generally a showcase of my ability... So its not often, i can A/B a mix within days of its creation.

Maybe i should give myself a week to re-evalutate my instrumentals before putting them out there. But i feel like, even once i fix the initial mix, i can probally also fix the secondary mix as well...and i try not to get too wrapped up into it, considering if i ever sold a beat for a BIG record, they would desire the stems to remix anyway!

As for home recording, i have a compressor before my soundcard thats on my mixer for the microphone. I use the Red gain reduction lights on there, no more than 3, when im using that...however the "shaping" or "release" still troubles me because i have nothing to compare it to a "good" compression track or vocal...

I mean if i keep it up this way, im sure ill discover a winning idealogy and theory about using compression...but im really hoping that i dont go out like that.

imma take all the tips given here, and just contemplate on them along with all of the other guides and presets ive come across.

And that mixing with your mind book, do i buy it from publisher direct? or can i buy it in a local store/amazon?

[irthwirm]

Originally Posted by mgthefuture

I dig alot of what yall are saying

here is a mixdown from the summer i did:

zSHARE - rfbvolume6demoreel.mp3

i like yo beats son!

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by illacov

I would almost want to ask why you would use a compressor for volume in mastering and not the volume knob?

Or if the levels are that low, why not something like a 1292?

Just curious.

I will just be quiet now. Welcome back Chris.

Peace
Illumination

When I mean volume, I mean using the gain reduction (Putting it to -1 or -1.5 depending) and adding volume after. Because if you don't use a proper compressor, and you aim for volume and only use a limiter, the limiter will catch all the peak transients, but your music might start to sound squished really quickly.

I'll try to give an example:

A Hip-Hop track and the kick and snare/clap are representing the sharp transients. To counter this, you use a compressor (with the setting that I stated above) and you brush off the transients to make everything gel together. I use the Mpressor for this and since I feel it's a hard knee compressor, I try not to go too overboard with the threshold. So I add, I see the gain reduction going a bit in the 1.5. I set the limiter knob (or not, depending) so it doesn't go past 1.5 of gain reduction (great feature on the mpressor by the way), and I add makeup gain, or not, depending how it sounds to my ears. Some say they don't like it on there, well I personally do.

I then add the ApEQ and see if I can cut/boost some frequencies to give more presence to the track and to get rid of excessive bass. only 1 to -1db of boost/cut is enough (if the track was mixed properly, or else you tell the client the problems, and you ask for a new master).

After this, I sometimes add a bit of inflator (6%-10) just to make the master come alive and not remain static from the compressor, but watch out, too much and your track starts pumping.

Then I add the Izotope Ozone plug, I set the limiter so that it reduces to .5 or 1 gain reduction. I set it on soft, I put the release on 50ms or 100ms.

I do not activate the dithering and keep the file as is. Then I put it in Voxengo rBrain Pro and convert to 44.1 and 16 bits.

All in all, I do tons of listening and I try to make the track as best as they can sound, without squishing too much (depending on the style).

I really with I could show what I do in person, that way we could see if things/methods could be improved, what works etc.