How do you get a banging kick?

[Lrmusic]

Ok, no that's not what I'm asking about.

My main weakness right now is creating tones that are emotionally pleasing. There are quite a few tracks I've listened to, where there's a synth element that just sounds so sweet and good, emotionally. How do I mix emotionally? When I play my grand piano, I can move myself and others emotionally, not really the case when I mix...the grand piano isn't even that good. In fact, when I mix it's a crap shoot. I want to feel it.

What the heck yo



Let's talk about emotional mixing. Side question: How long do you guys usually take per mix. I'm probably doing it way too fast.

Mods you can change the topic title if you feel it detracts from the thread; not really too attached to it now =/

[coyotekells]

The emotion exists in the performance.. you move people with grand piano, as you said.. not the mix.
Those "sweet synths" sounds good because of melody and arrangement, not EQ and compression..though of course, it doesn't hurt to have all the ducks in a row

That being said, I think important elements in this "emotional mix" you speak of has to do with automation rides (primarily volume, as well as use of reverb and delay rides)

Perceived space is the other big factor in my mind.. both "space" as in where you see the music being performed, and space as in "spacious mix"

[Lrmusic]

zSHARE - Can_t Help But Wait Remix.mp3

Probably...do you see any arrangement flaws here. I think this has potential to be emotionally moving, but the mix (and sound selection of 1 element, guess which element) seems so detracting =)

Definitely need to fix my latency probs and start arranging my sections w/ my keyboard (instead of drawing them in).

Does anyone know a quick way to get 0-25 ms latency with ASIO. I'll try fixing input latency compensation right now.

I'm frustrated =(.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Lrmusic

zSHARE - Can_t Help But Wait Remix.mp3

Probably...do you see any arrangement flaws here. I think this has potential to be emotionally moving, but the mix (and sound selection of 1 element, guess which element) seems so detracting =)

Definitely need to fix my latency probs and start arranging my sections w/ my keyboard (instead of drawing them in).

Does anyone know a quick way to get 0-25 ms latency with ASIO. I'll try fixing input latency compensation right now.

I'm frustrated =(.

Hallelujah...a real song with melody and decent lyrics.
the mix is dull and lifeless,but the song is very good as is the artist.

[DesertDawg]

The main keyboard patch is what I personally don't enjoy much (not the pad during the chorus, but the one in the intro & the first portion of the verses).

I don't really hear anything super-negative about the mix, per se'... it's just a matter of choices & what you're going for - which is hard for someone else to determine if they don't necessarily know what your intent was. If you're looking for something more emotional, then the only thing I could suggest, based on that one mix is that it doesn't have enough interesting stuff going on in the low end. Again, I don't know what you were going for, but what I'm missing is some kind of low-end drive or push or SOMETHING that resonates below the sternum - literally. Once you get that going, then you can worry about how to make the rest of it sparkle. You want your mixes to give off some kind of emotion, part of that is something that creates a physical sensation... the right kind of thump on a kick or a nice melodic bassline in a tune like this, perhaps. It's not ALL about low-end, of course, but that's one element that I feel is missing from that particular mix... something engaging going on down there.

[Lrmusic]

Word . The string section seemed so compelling as I was programming it that I totally eschewed arranging a nice warm sine bass lolz.

On a side note:
Can someone recommend a nice way to record an electric guitar straight into the comp (don't have a good enough recording rig to record it normally).

[Lrmusic]

Originally Posted by coyotekells

The emotion exists in the performance.. you move people with grand piano, as you said.. not the mix."

Man 100%...just fixed my midi input latency problems and I'm auditioning some softsynth patches with keyboard improvs...and the difference is night and day. Pretty much every patch sounds good and emotional in some way...and if it doesn't, I can always adjust my playing to make it sound emotional. Proof that it's all about performance...quantized drawn in music...will be 10x harder to make sound good.

[MYAMS]

Its not the mix (you can deal with that later) you just gotta step your beat game up. Your drums as well as the music sounds quite quantized and not well arranged. Besides being overall boring production with lackluster sounds, you need to focus mroe on instrumentation- for example you use pizzis in a pretty akward way. The little ear candy synth you add is boring. Strings need to be played in each articulation at a time, or since I am assuming you are using a string pad type thing play it in with some swag and do not hard quantize.

On a general note about hard quantizing: not only does it make your tracks less exciting sounding, the frequencies and your overall volume get swallowed up when all your notes from various software instruments are hitting at the same time.

[Lrmusic]

Originally Posted by MYAMS

Its not the mix (you can deal with that later) you just gotta step your beat game up. Your drums as well as the music sounds quite quantized and not well arranged. Besides being overall boring production with lackluster sounds, you need to focus mroe on instrumentation- for example you use pizzis in a pretty akward way. The little ear candy synth you add is boring. Strings need to be played in each articulation at a time, or since I am assuming you are using a string pad type thing play it in with some swag and do not hard quantize.

On a general note about hard quantizing: not only does it make your tracks less exciting sounding, the frequencies and your overall volume get swallowed up when all your notes from various software instruments are hitting at the same time.

word . Definitely going to start arranging everything with the keyboard from now on.

[MYAMS]

Originally Posted by Lrmusic

word . Definitely going to start arranging everything with the keyboard from now on.

great attitude

[Left Headphone]

I would add some piano and some real (not synth pad) string samples. I've been "studying" the 'Thriller' album. Its eye opening how they blended synths and "real instruments." That album is a gold mine of information.

[chrislago]

Sorry Myam, but it is the mix.

When I mix rock especially, I get wimpy kicks, and I turn them into great sounding kicks, all the time.

[Lrmusic]

It's both.

[Trell Blaze]

It's the arrangement. It's not very "soulful" or "expressive" at all. Technically, it's very sound and very well played but there's absolutely no emotional content whatsoever. That can NOT be mixed in.

The instrments themselves are pretty bland as well. Again, technically, they sound great. The recording is great, but emotion comes from the performance 1st...recording a distant 2nd....and mix last.

I don't hear much note velocity variation. That has a LOT to do with emotion too.

[Trell Blaze]

Originally Posted by chrislago

Sorry Myam, but it is the mix.

When I mix rock especially, I get wimpy kicks, and I turn them into great sounding kicks, all the time.

What does that have to do with emotional content? That's the goal of the OP here...not necessarily bangin drums.

[Trell Blaze]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Hallelujah...a real song with melody and decent lyrics.
the mix is dull and lifeless,but the song is very good as is the artist.

You do realize that's a Trey Songz tune, right?

[chrislago]

Originally Posted by Trell Blaze

What does that have to do with emotional content? That's the goal of the OP here...not necessarily bangin drums.

but he wants a banging kick :)

[Audio Child]

Im mislead by the thread title.

I too thought it was to do with acheiveing a banging kick.

[MrTurner]

''It's the arrangement. It's not very "soulful" or "expressive" at all. Technically, it's very sound and very well played but there's absolutely no emotional content whatsoever. That can NOT be mixed in.

The instrments themselves are pretty bland as well. Again, technically, they sound great. The recording is great, but emotion comes from the performance 1st...recording a distant 2nd....and mix last.

I don't hear much note velocity variation. That has a LOT to do with emotion too.''

Listening to the mp3 this is generally my view as well. Sometimes in these situations you can write a song as an arrangement , but then go back and treat it as a bit of a sound design opportunity...so-to-speak.

I do think if you want to do the "sound design" work you probably could make this sound more "emotive" ... but it would require the kind of tediousness analogous to a programming sound designer more so than a musician or conventional mix engineer.

[mgthefuture]

For me, the emotion comes from the connection i make with the patches.

A decent soundset/library/rack will go a LONG way in upgrading your production.

Good sounds mix their selves most times.

The performance is really important, not getting a stiff quantize at times...

Drums probally most important, learning to role they play in a mix...

There's so much to it so far, im 7 years in, and it's like im learning each day with this.

Just use the best tools and sounds you can.

Read/Study/Watch carefully in your down time.

[Storyville]

Ok, gave it a listen. The first that jumped out at me was the piano. It's a very nice line, with a nice color. I'd like to hear it louder. I'd also like to hear it played a little more dynamically. I suggest playing it while listening to the vocal so it compliments it.

The snare needs more mid body to it. The temptation is to make a really bright cracky snare all the time - but you didn't select a bright cracky snare and I think that was a good instinct. The snare needs more thump to it. Try eq'ing up the 300-400 zone, and turning down the snare level to compensate. If that doesn't work, you might have to split the bands and compress just the low mids and bring them up.

I disagree with Myams, I think the quantization is fine (on the drums at least, and the little koto harp thingy).

It lacks space and width - that's the biggest problem. And for that... well... that can only be figured out with experimenting, trial and error.

Nice work though!

[coyotekells]

Everyone that says the problem is the mix (ie, Chris Lago)... Sorry, I don't agree...

The problem is the beat / arrangement imo.

It lacks groove, punch and flavor. A good mix can help hide this, but it could sound a lot better even UNMIXED if it were produced better, than putting a great mix on this version (which would be puncher and clearer, but still not groove right and carry the emotion).

It's quite apparent that it's a remix, because the vocals are very well done with regard to performance and mix; you'd never hear things so uneven unless it was a remix (great vocals, stale beat).

Work on the beats.. since you can play, hell yes don't touch the step sequencer unless it's little touch ups.

Also, sounds themselves do play a big roll in perceived groove and emotion.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Lrmusic

Side question: How long do you guys usually take per mix. I'm probably doing it way too fast.

For a hip hop or R&B track, I'll typically take a full day (which ranges from 6-10 hours depending on how my ears are feeling) to pull the song together. 8 out of 10 times, I nail it and I'm done. The other 2 out of 10 times the client requests a change and/or I hear something I want to fix myself, and so I'll go back and revisit the stems for as long as needed to pull it together (it usually doesn't take more than an hour or two at most for these stems touch-ups).

One of the most tedious and time-consuming parts of any mix for me is making stems and alternate mixes. Oh, and waiting for my studio's slow-ass internet to upload the ****ing files to the client

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by chrislago

When I mix rock especially, I get wimpy kicks, and I turn them into great sounding kicks, all the time.

...by using Drumagog

[Tom Weider]

Just gave it a quick listen (been meaning to for a few days). I'll just give a mini review for the hell of it.

This is all objective, but I'll echo some things and add my two cents:

- The sync of the vocal and your remix seems to need some TLC. It certainly sounds uberquantized.

- This arrangement demonstrates some potential in your future productions (good ear, knack for trying to keep it interesting), but it sounds like it's a bit lazy (don't they all, sometimes? ) Very safe and predictable.

- The pizzi (obviously played on the black keys?) is kinda cool, but needs a bit more structure to develop its character for your version. In my writing/production I try to envision each sound and element as a character in the story.

- What shines for me are the pulsing synth quarter notes starting at the first verse and the gated strings at 2:26-ish. Those were the most interesting parts of your arrangement for me.

- The sweeps and swishes and swoops have to wow me if they're going to be there.

Recap: Best elements for me are the pulsing quarter note synth at the first verse and the gated strings at 2:26-ish. Other sound selections could be better for me. Arrangement could absolutely be better for me, but it sounds like it might be a bit lazy (e.g. safe, comfortable, and square) production. Talented production (e.g. you have an ear, and the potential to polish 'er up) but perhaps you're being a little lazy in this instance.

IME, a remix is basically telling the original story in a new way. I want to feel engaged in your version of the story, but there are lagging and long portions that aren't telling your story.

Play around and take the listener's ears in directions that they aren't always able to anticipate.

The whole thing sounds very safe. Use that ear and talent you've got and put it out there.

Best,

Tom

[Lrmusic]

Originally Posted by Tom Weider

perhaps you're being a little lazy in this instance.

Word, I don't know why, but I feel like getting them done as fast as possible. 2hrs is definitely not a good enough investment for a "full production".

What are some specific things (techniques and elements) that you'd consider "less safe". Link some songs if possible? Thanks.

The pizzi is not on just the black keys, it's the pentatonic scale in whatever key the song was in (black keys are effectively the pentatonic scale). I love the pentatonic scale, and you probably can tell from the song =).

Oh yeah check out this 8 measure snippet zSHARE - test2.mp3. It's my first real effort to record my playing live, (each part in one take). No practical purpose for me posting this (I don't really think it's that technically good anyway), but that I love it for some reason lol.

[Tom Weider]

Originally Posted by Lrmusic

Word, I don't know why, but I feel like getting them done as fast as possible. 2hrs is definitely not a good enough investment for a "full production".

Just depends on the project. Everybody's in a damn hurry. I've seen Brian McKnight write and track a song in 6 hours. But that's definitely not typical. I think some cats intentionally exaggerate their speediness to throw off the haters and newcomers.

The pizzi is not on just the black keys, it's the pentatonic scale in whatever key the song was in (black keys are effectively the pentatonic scale). I love the pentatonic scale, and you probably can tell from the song =).

I've no qualms with the pentatonic scale. It's just convenient that it happens to be one of the easier compositional elements for underdeveloped talent. Black keys -- or transpose until the black keys sound right. LOL

[azrael kennedy]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Hallelujah...a real song with melody and decent lyrics.
the mix is dull and lifeless,but the song is very good as is the artist.

you must've taken your medication this morning!

[OneUp Ent]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Hallelujah...a real song with melody and decent lyrics.
the mix is dull and lifeless,but the song is very good as is the artist.

That's because it was written by Neyo, a multi-platinum and talented song writer. This is a Remix of an already hit song from 2008.

[Lrmusic]

Originally Posted by Tom Weider

I've no qualms with the pentatonic scale. It's just convenient that it happens to be one of the easier compositional elements for underdeveloped talent.

Word up, the pentatonic scale is my go to melodic writing device when I don't feel like being creative =D. On a side note, I think that Musiqsoulchild has been singing the same 5 notes of the pentatonic scale (same octave too), since he got in. (+10 points if you felt this way before even reading this)