Breakdown of element panning in commercial tracks.

[Lrmusic]

(bass/kick/snare/vocs/hats/sustaining elements such as pads-strings/keys/ less synths/guitars/pianos/fx)

Most of us know a decent amount imo, but we want to know even more, so it would be awesome if one of the experts can come in and make a sick storyville/ubk-esque post.

And yeah I know it probably comes across as such, but this isn't a HMM DOYYY I'm panning my SNARE 35 feets left and it's reflecttion 60 feets LEFT and it sounds weerd what kind of hardware compression do I need to ficks dis ...o?? type post; it's just that I'm sure most of us GS readers would be interested in reading awesome stuff on panning that we probably have never thought of before.

[isawsasquatch]

Are you drunk?

[Lrmusic]

Few Q's. To achieve better instrument separation, I usually split my (usually mono) sources left and right, and pan them X%, so you could see something like this:

Synth 1: approx 30% left and right
Synth 2: a 50% left and right
Synth 3: a 70% left and right
Synth 4: a 100% left and right
Synth 5 (bass): center

or whatever. Is this a proper approach, or would you only pan things +- a small (maybe like 10-20) % of center and hard left and right, so everything within the approx 0%-20% 80-100% range.

This is a very general question, the gist of it is do you use the whole stereo field or just LMR give or take some %?

[chris carter]

I like to pan snare 15 left and then put a delayed version of it (typically 20ms) 50 right and 1dB louder. It creates a haas type effect that sounds really big and fat, but since the initial signal, which gets the advantage of precedence, is 'close' to the center, it FEELS like it's in the center to the listener - but still wide and fat. What's really cool is if you follow that up with a mono verb, usually a plate, and pan that 15 RIGHT and 50 LEFT. That's the dope shit right there.




























lol.... seriously though. I have three places I pan stuff. Left, right and center.

[KRStudio]

Play some of your favorite mixes and listen. Then mute left side and listen. Then mute right side and listen to the left. Mr Carter nailed it! Left, center, and right.

[smoke]

It always come back to this LCR thing.

but it's just a nightmare to set this up in a DAW working with VSTi. VSTi output one stereo combined. If we had a true stereo pair option from the VST or DAW it would be.. a lot more flexible. Not having it is probably why so many complain about lack of width.

[messiahwannabe]

Originally Posted by chris carter

lol.... seriously though. I have three places I pan stuff. Left, right and center.

huh? are you serious?

i'm confused, are you saying you only pan 100% to the left, 100% to the right, or dead center?

just swinging something 30% to the left or right brings it out in the mix without actually turning it up. hard pans to the left or right makes things leap right out, but i feel like in some listening situations (say a mono tv speaker) it might **** up the mix if you don't know what you're doing.

i feel like this guy's asking a legit question (though perhaps english is his second language?) and i wouldn't mind hearing a few pro opinions on this subject as well. for instance, if i hard pan something left or right, what's the chance of that ****ing up the mix on broadcast tv? if something is important to the song but you want to bring it out by panning it somewhere, how far to the left or right will you go? 25%? 50%? 75%? are there any considerations you need to keep in mind about that in preparing something for broadcast?

i know to a certain extent this is a matter of taste, but there have definitely been times when i've pressed the mono button on my mixer and been unpleasantly surprised by the results... this goes double for tricks like {double track, pan one hard left and tune up 5 cents, pan other hard right and tune down 5 cents)

personally my rule of thumb is, if it's that important to the track, keep it close to the center just in case some listening situations loose half the field. pan harder the lower it is in the mix and the less important it is to the track - that way, in an optimal listening situation it's still audible (more so cause of the panning) but if you loose it cause of some ****ed up public/broadcast listening situation it's not the end of the world...

[wreckingstuff]

Mmmmm.... Mono Summing, like when you play in a club. Some wild stereo effects just sound weird.. A friend who plays out frequently told me: Keep everything under 150Hz mono in the mix, and use a mid/side processor to 'widen' elements instead of big pans.

[wreckingstuff]

But then listen to Cypress Hill for example, and Muggs pans all over the place to great effect, and their shit sounded good in a club and on a stereo....

[messiahwannabe]

i've heard hardcore stero effects where the effect itself just KILLED it in a clubbing situation (likem the main synth track was hard panned to the right, and the same sound through a 15 millisecond delay was hard panned left, and it sounded craaaaazy lush and full) but that same effect would sound fine if, say, you only heard the left side - it would be exactly the same, just minus that effect...

what does muggs hard pan? little random elements that are cool and add character, but aren't as important as, say, the vocal hook?

[wreckingstuff]

Originally Posted by messiahwannabe

i've heard hardcore stero effects where the effect itself just KILLED it in a clubbing situation (likem the main synth track was hard panned to the right, and the same sound through a 15 millisecond delay was hard panned left, and it sounded craaaaazy lush and full) but that same effect would sound fine if, say, you only heard the left side - it would be exactly the same, just minus that effect...

what does muggs hard pan? little random elements that are cool and add character, but aren't as important as, say, the vocal hook?

Interesting, I suppose it would depend on the audio setup at a club as well as the mix?

I was thinking more about sweeping elements from one side to the other / around in the mix, which, like you say would (should?) sound no different in mono sum than if they were just left in one position... Except my friend who Dj's regularly told me 'some wild stereo effects sound weird' and he gets around this in his own productions by using mid / side processing.

Then I thought of CH of an example of tracks with panning effects that sounded good on wax, cd, tv, radio, club. Muggs pans hats, fills, vocals, scratches, and little random elements that are cool and add character.... I was just trying to get involved and expand the debate, and thought I should give an example y'know...

[Lrmusic]

Originally Posted by messiahwannabe

i feel like this guy's asking a legit question (though perhaps english is his second language?)

Nope, it's just that my posting style is Joyce + Dostoevsky + 2*(Silly)

Don't fyd it...

[u b k]

Originally Posted by messiahwannabe

i feel like this guy's asking a legit question (though perhaps english is his second language?) and i wouldn't mind hearing a few pro opinions on this subject as well.

It's a totally legit question; likewise, "LCR only" is a totally legit answer. More pro's mix this way than you might imagine.

Try to understand there are many ways to get elements placed anywhere in the field you want and still have all your pan knobs L, C, or R. One of my favorites for stereo sources: pan your left track L, and your right track C. Now jockey those faders around up and down and notice how the use of level creates panning as well. If you need it skewed more to the right side of the mix, pan one track C and the other R. This is old school "true stereo panning".

LCR does a great job of maintaining openness in a mix because it tends to keep the space around the critical center elements more open. Mixes also sound wider, which may or may not be a good thing. Wide often equates as lush, but it just as often equates as less punchy or focused. Mixes need contrast to be interesting: if everything's wide, nothing has drama.

Personally, I've backed away from militant LCR in the past year, mostly because I'm recording more acoustic instruments in true stereo. For those, I find 'pinpoint panning' to be lovely because you not only play with the width and focus, you get to tailor the depth and touchability as well. On a pair of well-placed overheads, there's a point when you pull the pan knobs inward and it stops sounding like a huge recording and it starts looking like an actual, solid little version of your room floating between the speakers. Pan too far in and it collapses, which can also be a good thing because mono drums rock. But that touchable little room, it's a hell of an effect for spacious, acoustic arrangements.

Anyway, you guys with 4 or 5 'stereo' synths, you may want to try just tossing one side on most or all of those sounds and working with the mono tracks. If you want more drama, pick one, pick the biggest, and use a different synth with a slightly different but similar sound playing the identical part, and pan *that* opposite. The effect is massive, way more massive than a single sound that's been 'stereo-ized' by effects.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.

[Lrmusic]

Just learned about 3 new things...:D

Shakira - Give It Up to Me - Free MP3 Stream on IMEEM Music

Does this sound like mostly LCR panning to you?

[chris carter]

Originally Posted by messiahwannabe

huh? are you serious?

i'm confused, are you saying you only pan 100% to the left, 100% to the right, or dead center?

yes.

just swinging something 30% to the left or right brings it out in the mix without actually turning it up. hard pans to the left or right makes things leap right out, but i feel like in some listening situations (say a mono tv speaker) it might **** up the mix if you don't know what you're doing.

LCR tends to sound better on TV. I have over 100 placements in TV. Trust me; I've never been disappointed with LCR on TV.

i feel like this guy's asking a legit question (though perhaps english is his second language?) and i wouldn't mind hearing a few pro opinions on this subject as well.

I'm not a pro??

for instance, if i hard pan something left or right, what's the chance of that ****ing up the mix on broadcast tv? if something is important to the song but you want to bring it out by panning it somewhere, how far to the left or right will you go? 25%? 50%? 75%? are there any considerations you need to keep in mind about that in preparing something for broadcast?

I go 100% left and 100% right and 100% center (or 0-left, 0-right if you prefer). No special panning considerations necessary for broadcast. The only time I don't go strict LCR is if some certain part REALLY needs it, which isn't that often. OR, if I'm doing some effect where I'm sweeping a sound accross the sound stage with panning automation obviously.

i know to a certain extent this is a matter of taste, but there have definitely been times when i've pressed the mono button on my mixer and been unpleasantly surprised by the results... this goes double for tricks like {double track, pan one hard left and tune up 5 cents, pan other hard right and tune down 5 cents)

It's not the LCR; it's phase problems you are encountering. No record is going to sound exactly the same in mono. But you should try to avoid phase cancellation problems. Whenever I do a haas type effect (which I do a hell of a lot, and of course always hard left and hard right ), I always check it in mono. If it's collapsing too much, then I adjust the delay time until I get the stereo sound I want, but it's not turning into poo in mono.

personally my rule of thumb is, if it's that important to the track, keep it close to the center just in case some listening situations loose half the field. pan harder the lower it is in the mix and the less important it is to the track - that way, in an optimal listening situation it's still audible (more so cause of the panning) but if you loose it cause of some ****ed up public/broadcast listening situation it's not the end of the world...

[Chris Lago]

I only mix LCR too... There's no (oh I'll put this Hi-Hat at 50 etc). It's only Left Right Center, like the older consoles.

[mgthefuture]

Noob?: How do i go about setting up a delay of a sound, so that the original sound is left, but the delay is on the right?

Is it a particular function of the delay, or panning the send right?


Thanks.

[chris carter]

Originally Posted by mgthefuture

Noob?: How do i go about setting up a delay of a sound, so that the original sound is left, but the delay is on the right?

Is it a particular function of the delay, or panning the send right?


Thanks.

dry:left, wet:right. Or the other way around. Or, track:left, send to delay and pan return right. Or the other way around.

[TsunboRecords]

Originally Posted by chris carter

dry:left, wet:right. Or the other way around. Or, track:left, send to delay and pan return right. Or the other way around.

Hey Chris!

This is my usual approach too. In FL Studio, I usually send a buss back into another one and pan that one either hard left/right or maybe 20-40% or so. Then I wash, rinse and repeat for the other side. Then I mute them both and listen to a before/after king of A/B comapraison...most of the time the "doubling up" sounds great...other times it s*cks monkey balls!

Do you have any more tips?

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by chris carter

lol.... seriously though. I have three places I pan stuff. Left, right and center.

Heh. I'm with you.

(for the most part, at least)

There was a big long thread about this not too long ago; do a search for "LCR mixing".

[Lrmusic]

Good stuff
A few more Qs are popping up as I read the thread.

1. An identical source panned 100% right and 100% left, appears wider than that if it were panned center.

You would refer to this sound as having a center image. Correct?

2. In the event that I want it to sound like 2 distinct sources panned left and right, (and not just one big surrounding source), whilst avoiding phasing and imbalance problems, what do I have to do? I want it to be perceived as emanating from the left and right, not the center.

3. Have you ever tried using MS processing to mute the center of the perceived sum of a source after it was split and panned L/R? In otherwords, route the signal to another bus, pan one left and one right, (standard so far), send them both to another bus, and then use MS processing on that bus to mute the mono center, and then that goes to the master bus. This is probably the most hypothetical question I've ever asked on GS lol.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Lrmusic

Good stuff
A few more Qs are popping up as I read the thread.

1. An identical source panned 100% right and 100% left, appears wider than that if it were panned center.

This is absolutely wrong. You'll end up with the same thing as panning one source to the center; it'll just be louder.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Lrmusic

3. Have you ever tried using MS processing to mute the center of the perceived sum of a source after it was split and panned L/R? In otherwords, route the signal to another bus, pan one left and one right, (standard so far), send them both to another bus, and then use MS processing on that bus to mute the mono center, and then that goes to the master bus. This is probably the most hypothetical question I've ever asked on GS lol.

This will leave you with an out-of-phase, nauseating mess, and it will only "mute" the middle if you sum the sides.

[Lrmusic]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

This is absolutely wrong. You'll end up with the same thing as panning one source to the center; it'll just be louder.

OKKKK thanks, this is exactly what I was doing wrong. What do I have to do to get it to sound wider? Is this possible with just panning? Or do I have to use Haas/mess around with pitch/EQ sides differently? Reverb/delays?

Here's an example of a song, does it even sound remotely wide to you? zSHARE - Can_t Help But Wait Remix.mp3

Am I also wrong in assuming that any source split and panned any X% (for example 50%) equivalently left and right will sound wider?

[ryst]

Although I'm not a "pro" at all, I pan everything hard left and instruct the listener to cover his/her right ear. The response I get is AWESOME.

In all seriousness, I'm 99.452% LCR too and have been for a long time.

[messiahwannabe]

Originally Posted by chris carter

I'm not a pro??

ha ha, no, sorry, didn't mean it to sound like that! i guess i just wasn't sure if you were being serious. hearing your second more detailed answer helped a lot to assure me you were!

i'm gonna try doing a mix or two just using LDR as per your sugestions. though i gotta say a lot of what i'm doing is for live shows, and it's shocking how often i wind up only getting a left or right channel into the mixing board when other people are "responsible" for the sound. and i don't think any of my damn mixers have a freakin mono button either (something i'll make sure of next time i upgrade or replace them)

[Storyville]

I can't say I'm on the same boat here. LCR tends to not work so well for me, I find my imaging gets lopsided. I used to feel that the pan controls in PT were blurry, but in a proper monitoring environment it's a little more accurate - as accurate as volume differences can be to yield a phantom image.

Imaging is a weird sort of thing for me. I do it by feel, and I'm not entirely sure what I expect to get out of things. One thing I do know for sure is that panning things hard left and hard right does NOT automatically yield a wide image. It only works if the two elements work really well together in the center.

I've been revisiting the S-1 Imager plug-in recently. I have to say, it's really pretty cool - especially now that I'm focusing on doing my mixes with mainly volume and pan exclusively - trying to touch the eq and compressor as little as possible.

I think of all the things I struggle with most, it's good imaging. The way volume effects the balance of things is a lot more predictable and easily recognizeable than the way pan position does. I know I'm doing a pretty good job though if I feel like there's depth in the mix before I've added any reverb.

With live instruments I use a lot of room mics. I track almost everything with a room mic. I generally use the room capture as an audio map for pan positions. With drums specifically, I'll aim the room mic so that the center aligns the kick and the snare to dead middle, and coordinate the OHs to sound right at hard left and right. This leaves a little out of center position for the hat and toms (and other brass if I happen to be miking those).

[chris carter]

Originally Posted by Storyville

With live instruments I use a lot of room mics. I track almost everything with a room mic. I generally use the room capture as an audio map for pan positions. With drums specifically, I'll aim the room mic so that the center aligns the kick and the snare to dead middle, and coordinate the OHs to sound right at hard left and right. This leaves a little out of center position for the hat and toms (and other brass if I happen to be miking those).

The big exception with LCR is that if you are trying to accurately match a live soundstage (ie. the 'documentary method'), the LCR really doesn't work unless you mic it specifically so that you can pan LCR. Ultimately you have to spot certain instruments to be in a location because that's how they are in the room or on the stage and you want to remain true to that sound, then you have to pan somewhere in the middle. I think LCR is more for commercial records that don't have much of a documentary aspect (which is probably the vast vast majority of conpemporary music.... especially when it comes to urban music).

[phillysoulman]

Left//Center/Right

[isawsasquatch]

Originally Posted by chrislago

I only mix LCR too... There's no (oh I'll put this Hi-Hat at 50 etc). It's only Left Right Center, like the older consoles.

What "older consoles" are you talking about? The pan knob ain't nothin' new, my dude.