Can somebody tell me, step by step, how to get pro rap vocals?

[rickrock305]

well, your on the right track. First tip i have for you...use a LOT more compression. Don't be scared to have that needle pinned into compression. Also try using a couple of different compressors, maybe one pre-EQ and one post-EQ, something like that. You have to experiment for yourself to figure out which compressors, how much compression, etc. The 1176 and LA2A combo often works for me.

And don't be so cookie cutter with the EQ. Generally you will need to cut the lows and low mids and boost some highs. But that doesn't mean that a certain song won't call for huge dips in the mids or highs or something like that.

Just don't be afraid to use extreme settings on both your EQs and compressors, you might like what you find!

[Blues]

Thx for replying, Rick...eq after compression aye?....i'll try that...if i compress alot more (as you stated) wont that kill all the life and dynamics from the vocals?....

keep em coming people....

[rickrock305]

Originally Posted by Blues

Thx for replying, Rick...eq after compression aye?....i'll try that...if i compress alot more (as you stated) wont that kill all the life and dynamics from the vocals?....

keep em coming people....

Not necessarily. EQ can come before or after compression, both will give you different results.

As far as the compression, thats where the attacks and release times become very important.

[byunsen]

it sounds like ur headed in the right direction. al the advice given so fars great but maybe that little extra that ur looking for can be found by upgrading your gear to somethin closer to what the real engineers utilize? obviously skill plays a huge part in getting that sound but the right gear will take the application of that skill/experience/knowledge to that "pro level."

[Bob Olhsson]

I'm teaching a little mastering class at the local JC. One of the kids showed up with a rap tune that sounded way bigger than any of the others. Turned out he had plugged his beat box into one channel of his computer and a cheap dynamic mike into the other.

He mixed it in Magix Music Studio which was available last week for $30 with a $30 rebate (i.e. for free!) at Comp USA.

real talent is a wonderful thing!

[s.d.finley]

Most of my clients will double or even triple verse tracks, and that words for word in the EXCACT rythem of the first track. If the tracks are only doubles, I will pan each anywhere to 20 to 25% left right. If these are tripled, then 1 straight up, and the other 2 maybe 40 to 60% L/R. Then maybe an "ad liv" track also center but turned down a bit in the recording process.

I have noticed w/ rappers that only have one main verses part and a few ghost or libs, i MUST slam the main vox track hardw/ a comp ITB to get it up there, especially if the beat is hitting HARD.

If your presonus has inserts I would highly recommed a GOOD compressor in the signal path. You will get more volume and more of an in yer face sound. I recommed the RNC by FMR audio, less than $200. You can get lots of reduction, -12 db or more
w/o nasty artifacts, or you can use to smoothly level your voice out at around -3db.

As far as EQ, it ALWAYS depends on the voice, sweep a wide Q around to find the sweet spot, or do the same w/a notch but dip the unpleasentness.

hope this helps

rock

sdf

[Arka]

For recording a RNC is fine, but at the mixing stage I´d say you should go with a more colored compressor. There are a few plugs that gives you some nice grit. The Universal Audio UAD comps are standouts, but as far as native processing I´ve found the PSP Mixpressor capable of some nasty compression. If you ask me compression is to rap vocals what distorsion is to guitar (well, that was a bit oversimplyfied, but you get the picture).

Of course you should make sure you recording acoustics are decent, without a good vocal booth you will never get a "pro" vocal sound even out of a Sony C-800 or a Neumann U-47.

peace /Arka

[moeses]

blues come on man...
ya know you can holla at ya boy for some tips
hit me up on aim man
wait till you hear the new recordings...whewww boiiiii

[blayz2002]

Originally Posted by Arka

For recording a RNC is fine, but at the mixing stage I´d say you should go with a more colored compressor. There are a few plugs that gives you some nice grit. The Universal Audio UAD comps are standouts,

And here's free one (Blockfish) which is a great alternative to the Ren stuff from Waves on vocals...it has a few hidden controls...so read the 'read me'. http://www.digitalfishphones.com/mai...em=2&subItem=5 The De esser's not bad either. I used to use Blockfish a lot, to get a more in ya face style rap vox...but if I wanted it smoother then I reach for the Ren Comp's from Waves...now it's mostly about UAD 1 plugs. Huge step up from Waves for me.

[moeses]

just so y'all know
this cat blues is one of the most talented emcees i've ever heard

almost as good as that dude YOUNG MOE lol

[Arka]

The simple UAD channel strip comp is actually the nastiest one of them all, not for that smooth sound, but if you need to smash the shit out of your vocals it works. Downside is that easily it brings up breathing and "essiness" in the material. But its all about how you use it of course.

Originally Posted by blayz2002

...now it's mostly about UAD 1 plugs. Huge step up from Waves for me.

[heathen]

I reckon you may want to check out m/s (mid side) micing techniques and do a few layers.Theres plenty of info out there to read about mid side , sum and differerence it's all the same thing.It's worth the read.

[XHipHop]

i'm not the biggest fan of the blue baby bottle. I had one for a little while and almost every mic i tried sounded better for vocals. In the same price range, I like the Neumann KMS-105 and ADK Vienna Edition.

That Blue Baby Bottle is pretty dark and lacks high end so I would find a really nice EQ and see what you can do to open it up...3db might not even be enough, honestly.

[Blues]

test

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by Blues

test

mic check 1 - 2 - 1 - 2.

::feedback::

[superburtm]

Unless you really understand what an equalizer and a compressor are doing I would say do the following: Get a decent mic which you already have..get a decent preamp And try not blow any red lights while recording it and have someone mix it. Or go into a pro studio where the engineer will prolly blow your mind.

[Blues]

Thx you everyone for replying...sup,moe...dude,i'm hardly ever on AIM lately...so i'll pm you on this board..i gotta holla at ya about the scene down where your at anyway..trying to do shows down there in the near future...


I have a vocal booth so acoustics arent really an issue...it's dead but not too dead....auralex foam and diffussors are in it...


As far as that baby bottle being dark..yea...we noticed that too...next time i get some cash...maybe i should invest in something a bit brighter maybe...cuz i'm always having to cut the lowmids on that....it's a dope mic....i love it on guitars...but may it aint the best vocal mic in the world...in the mean time...s'all we got too work with ....so i'm going to have to make it work...

perhaps scraping up the funds together to get a compressor to track with aint such a bad idea....i'll just work some overtime, i guess...probably will get a DBX 160 series...seems to be what alot of cats are using


i decided to stop putting a delay on the ghost tracks anymore....just aint working...i'll think i'll put that on the main vocal from now on....an dpan just the effect both left anf right...yea...that might work...

moe..check your pm....

[Arka]

If money is tight, I´d definitely start by getting a better pre and possibly another mic before getting a hardware compressor for tracking. When recording to 24 bit, a tracking compressor will not do that much for your sound quality. FMR RNP is a very good value pre, and I have to second the vote for ADK Vienna as a mic for modern vocal sounds, very airy and crisp.

/Arka

[Blues]

Arka- See i've already tried a RNP and RNC before..a few years ago....what i heard coming out of the speakers didnt move me at all...no wow factor...it wasnt a bad signal...just plain to me...

Now when i tracked thru a Kiwi + Avalon 737 ... wow....sounded like a record...unfortunately i dont have the $3500+ to spend on a combo like that...and even if did...why would I?...that $3500 can go towards a down payment on some property

...........wait a minute...this is Gearslutz....what am I saying?.....Bring on the loan officer and angry wife!!!


Seriously though..i have heard alot of other people getting GREAT results with real humble gear so for right now..i want to go as far as i possibly can sonically with what i got before i make the jump to lightspeed on more expensive gear.
Especially when my inadequate sound isnt an issue of gear but technique....



superburtm- Granted...yea...i'm already looking for a good quality mixer to mix this stuff down....but i would like, for my own knowledge, to be a more competent mixer/engineer....just becuase any advantage i have benefits me as an overall artist..


peace

[Arka]

Yeah, I can understand that, both are quite transparent, thats why I wouldnt advice you to get a RNC for rap vox. However the RNP is a sort of "airy" pre for a very reasonable amount of money, and mic pres with a nice color hardly come below $1k. But getting a less dark sounding mic would probably make the real difference here. Here in sweden an ADK Vienna will set you back around $200 plus VAT, thats a serious bargain.

/Arka

[superburtm]

not a big fan of 160s on vox.

[cruams88]

I cant make the vocals sit in the mix.
Here are my tools:

Behringer BCA 2000
Cubase SX 2.0
Compressor Bundled w/ Cubase
EQ " " "
Takstar Condenser Microphone

heres how I recorded it...MIC --> BCA 2000 ---> DAW --> Compressor --> EQ
any Idea what was missing in the process??
I heard a good preamp and external compressor is crucial before the vocals hit the DAW...

I would like to ask some advice regarding on when (before/After the compressor) EQ's should be placed on the vocal path...any fast tutorial on EQs??I know them frequencies but really didnt understand yet what those Qs mean those SHELF n etc...

I am a newbie I hope you could give help..(Make it simple as possible)

[Zacchino]

Don't forget an anti reflection filter !

[Arka]

Not getting the vocals to sit in the mix is usually depending a lot more on tracking acoustics than anything else. If you got a crap mic and a crap pre and a crap converter, those will contribute, but all of those factors together will not nearly have the same impact as the acoustics of the room you record in.

Even if you got expensive gear, it will still sound like a crappy demo if you don´t treat the room. Getting a dynamic mic such as a SM57 which is less dependent on room acoustics might be a good advice if you are on a budget. But such a mic demands more of the the preamp, so getting a decent one might still be necessary.

peace /Arka

[illynoise]

Originally Posted by Blues

Check it out, i've been rhyming for 16 years (i'm 26) and been producing for 3. But i'm definately not the world's greatest engineer. I'm really having a tough time making me and my partners vocals stand out in songs. They just dont seem to have the depth, clarity, stereo spread,presence and air that I hear on cd's or even other independent artist seem to be getting. I dont think it's the equipment cuz i know of other people that are getting waaaay better results working with gear comparable to mine.

My chain is as follows:

Baby Bottle Mic
Pres in the presonus firepod
converters in the presonus
Cubase SX (using waves plug-ins)
M-Audio BX 5's

i've already done a search on these boards...and have tried to apply the tips poeple have offered but the vocals still aren't "there",ya know?

here's an example:
"Random Written"
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page...m?bandid=52153


I stand out about 4 to 6 inches out from the mic, I dont compress going in, I compress afterwards (usually between 2:1 to 4:1 with 4 to 6 db's of gain reduction, attack is usually between 50 and 70ms with release in the 30's range),
Becuase i dont compress going in (i dont have a compressor and cant really afford one right now) I have to keep my gain low with the peaks in my voice hitting never more than -6db. Most of the vocals tracked end up sittign somewhere in the -18 to -10 range so i leave plenty of headroom. Which is good isnt it?

I usually cut 2 to 5 db's of the low mids and boost about 3 db's in the 5-13 khz range. That the main vocal. Then my "ghost vocal" i'll have most the lows and low mids filtered out and put a delay effect on it. I learned that trick on these boards...but it makes my vocals sound undefined, I think. AM i not doing it right?

My ad libs i'll pan 20 to 30 degrees left and right to try to get a stereo impression of the vocals...but still....doesn't sound defined enough.


damn i need help....ANY and all advice you can give would be really appreciated....thx in advance...

I just listened to your page and the songs. I don't know if your using the same setup, but it sounds to me like the problems are with the mic pre. It's getting over loaded or your compressing too much. Look at your mic placement, point the mic down toward your chest if your voice is nasaly and get up closer to the mic in that case.

Mic pres are like condoms. Don't get a cheap one.

BaseJase
Illynoise

[octatonic]

hiya,

In your situation I would:

1. Replace the pre's and converters with something good.
2. Ditch the BX5's for something flatter- you will be compensating for the lack of mid range accuracy in them and pushing the mids too much.
3. Record hotter - there is no need to track at -18 or even -10. Why do you think having that much digital headroom is a good idea?
4. Compress a bit on the way in.
5. Look seriously at my acoustics.
6. Think about the ghost vocal- perhaps some creative editing and effecting og the primarily vocal cut is all that is required.
7. Process in the analog domain- digital EQ and compression rarely perform as well as high quality analog gear.

James

[Big 3rd]

First off, I think you shouldn't go out and buy more equipment....thinking it will solve 90% of your problems. I'm fairly still new to engineering music and I have an HD2 system and pretty much all high end gear and still have heard mixes that have been better than mine that have been mixed on equipment of lesser quality. So I wouldn't buy into the gear argument more than the technique itself. Get your technique down first... then go for the big sh*t. Exhaust the limits of your equipment with technique....never let your equipment exhaust your limited techniques. That is what happens when you buy equipment first without KNOWING what you already have.

But anyway....

When you listen to some of the best rap vocals ever professionally mixed, you will notice that a lot of the dynamics are preserved. I'm not the one to really suggest anything and actually I'm still learning myself but I've been told by several that you really should compress your main vocals very little, IF ANY (2-3 db of g. reduction). Lately I've been working on my vocals too and trying to pretty much get every single word to pop out, also. In doing so, I realized that I don't really like compression on my vocals, yet I want the presence that compression brings. Ok....so I do both.

This is what I've been told by SEVERAL engineers that know their sh*t.

In a nutshell, this is what they suggested.

1. Add little preferably NO compression to your main vocal but eq it to cut any mud that may exist in it. Then ride the fader or automate it to your liking. This is the vocal that will be the meat and potatoes of the overall sound, so mix this in with the rest of your current mix. Bring it all the way up.

2. Copy the original, then compress the sh*t out of it. In this copy, you want to preserve the attack of the words but compress everything else. So as you know that means, slow attack, med to quick release. Up to 10-12 dbs of reduction.

3. Run this same compressed copy through an eq. Add a considerable amount of gain around the 2k-8k area. Now you have to find out where the sweet spots are in this freq. range. So that means you might have to add less at the 2k-3k area and more at the 5-8 k area. But just play around with it to see what you like and prefer AFTER YOU'VE DONE STEP 4.

4. Now slowly bring in the compressed copy until it adds just that perfect amount of bite and edge. This will be the presence of your final vocal but the original will preserve the dynamics, natural tone, and overall body of your final vocal.

Hope this helps.

Let me know if it worked out for you. I'm still working on the technique myself but so far from what I've tryed, it seems like it's definitely heading me in the right direction.

Oh yeah...

You might have to even automate the eq a little in order to capture every single word perfectly. A standing eq on an entire vocal may be good for most of it, but not all of it. As you know some words can easily get lost or be mistaken for other words, no matter how much compression you use.

[Methlab]

Distortion is your friend too. Blend it into your vocal tracks a little...experiment.

[Ernest Buckley]

John Leventhal who has produced nothing close to rap or hip hop is known for his vocal present sound on all of his records. He was asked how he got the vocals to sound so up front. He responded something like, "I turn the fader all the way up".

It sounds simple but I`m sure hes using compression as well. I would also say EQ can carve out a little space for the vocals and also panning. Keep the kick drum, bass and vocals towards the center and leave everything else to the sides.

Sweep between 1k and 6k to see where the vocals bit somewhat and bring that freq. up. The combination of panning, EQ and compression should give you what you want and of course... turn the fader up.

Much Success,
Ernest