how the hell are u guys getting so much low end??

[jazzy655]

Man, i'm lost on this one. I'm no engineer but I know a lot of cats that know less than me about recording and mixing but still, they come out of cubase or protools with kicks and basses that are like WAY phatter than mine.

My chain is roland Fantom X > Focusrite ISA 428 > RME ADI-2 > Cubase SX
All Mogami wire.

As far as I know this is a decent setup. So what am I doing wrong? Is it the sounds on the Fantom? anybody got any tips for me on this, cause it's killing me. it's like the one thing thats keeping my mixes from being real nice...

you can here what i'm taling about here http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page...?bandID=289403

The first three songs sound pretty nice to me, but just lack that thick lowend I hear in some of your guys stuff..

Hit me Back,
.one.

[blayz2002]

To me it don't sound like it's the front end kit, or you are fundamentally doing something wrong...I think it could be your monitring system..i.e. you ain't hearing whats happening in the low end properly to decide where to boost frequencies and where to cut down there. Or maybe poss the room you mix in needs some treament to kill low frequency resonance, so you think you got more bass in the mix than you really do. Here's some web links that can help you get a better understanding http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov0...s/qa1104-1.htm .... and the room treatment bit in this one http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr0...diosos0403.asp

Some of the more experienced guys may have a more detailed answer. What monitors you using?

One critique of your mixing style is I think your over doing it on some of the panning on some instruments ( I would try less extreme pans more 1 o-clocks - 3 o-clocks) ...I think subtlety may work better when panning ...unless it's something that sits lower in the mix.

[jazzy655]

I think you nailed it. I am highly suspect of my monitoring setup. I'm also sure that my room sucks. We never planned on mixing anything at my place, so that part of our budget was used on other stuff.

Also about the panning thing, I actually started realizing my pans were too drastic yesterday. It seems like I was removing all of the center in my mixes. I guess thats where all the power lies.

While mixing i've been using refference material to mix to. I've been trying to get that lowend as phat and puncy as theirs, but it's just not happening. I've been using the UAD plugs lately and they have helped a lot but it's still not there. I need it to bump, and listening to some you the music on this site tells me I should be able to get the same results ITB.

Any more tips anyone??

[AnalogBob]

I find to get the bump layering is reqired, (or the good old NY thing) so you can get each par resonating jsut right..... and then careful engineering to put it together again so it sounds like one unit.

[rickrock305]

Originally Posted by AnalogBob

I find to get the bump layering is reqired, (or the good old NY thing) so you can get each par resonating jsut right..... and then careful engineering to put it together again so it sounds like one unit.

well put, and very true.

[scruffydog]

To me you are trying to hard to make the mix deep.
I think you need to cut a keys a little at 500k and perhaps boost the kit 60 k a tad if you need more bottom(remove all your current eq first).
You can be much more subtle with these keyboard sounds for most parts. Sit things back a little more apart from one or two key riffs or fx.
All the keys are caught up in this lower mid mess and it is a little difficult to listen to.
Dont eq too much...dont eq everything..and when you do try and cut some times,especially the muddy 500k area..it will create a little more space at times.

Choose the kik drum that is good and work with it..your vocal is well recorded and sounds fine but when the track comes in all the keys and stuff are over cooked a bit.
some sounds need to be in the distance a bit more..light and shade etc.
you are just getting a little stressed with the mixes so take breaks and compare them with a suitable reference from time to time.

Dont get too obsessed with bottom end, you will often not need as much as you think! Just make the balances better and dont swamp the voice in mud.


Nice one
Scruffydog

[jazzy655]

thanks scruffy.
uh... so are a lot of you guys doing submixes of your drums? thats the impression i got when scruffy said to do some eq tweaks on mine. is subgrouping a pretty standard thing around here??

[scruffydog]

I do group the kit elements to a pair of outputs and they come up on my desk, often I will then use the desk groups in an effort to do a Michael Brauer type thing and pass them through outboard compression etc. (check out all his mix tips! he has 56 outs and I have 8 to play with so ...'':)
It helps in that I have control of the whole kit volume too.
But your drums seem good apart from a bit too much low eq on the kik and perhaps a little less kik to keep everything pushing.
Group the kit sounds and treat them as one family for a while.
This will perhaps keep you away from the eq a bit and make you focus on balances more in the track.

Later
Scruffydog

[rickrock305]

yes, i always send the drums to a subgroup. Alot of times i have more than one sub of the drums, with different compression/EQ/fx or whatever, and mix them back together. Also something to consider...often i don't send the kick to the subgroup...all the compression and whatnot tends to detract from the low end. It all depends on the kick though

[abit]

This is what I asking myself every time I build track:
1.Find the right sounds 1st.
That KIK could be grate, but it might not fit in the end let say.
It happens.
So if it doesn't - don't kill yourself with EQ..
Try different kik.
U not stuck here with the kik of life band.

2.Pitch your drumz. tune it. And Pitch it to the key of the song(!)
3.Use more filters, here U can avoid EQ plugz.

Plan for your self who is who in your overall range.
So U can see -
here is my basement(below 70, balls shaking, need sub for that),
here is my 1st floor (low mid range, hitting stomach),
Here is my 2d floor (high middle, brightness, presents, openness)
here is my roof (air).

Build this thing starting right from foundation.

Where I'm gonna place a vocal.
What might fight with this vocal

How about kik and bass.
Bass will go under kik or opposite.
(could be both ways)
If U use EQ cut more and don't boost(plug-ins)

More or less, but something like this.
U can think architecturally or any other way U like.
But every joint U do, in any art in general, U have to make it in harmony.
This is the way I think.
Hope this help.

peace..

[jazzy655]

yo great tips,
since the kick drums is like one of the most important elements in hiphop mixing, let try to keep the tips coming, cause i know i'm not the only one wondering how others get that banging kick drum!

[telefontel]

you need the asr-x

it has the deepest bass

[telefontel]

but seriously,

i dont think its any issue of software vs. hardware. listen to the banging low end on all the 80's shit. all the linn drum and 808 shit that still bangs. all done with outboard boxes and keyboards. can anyone say miami bass!

the following advice is just my point of view in whats helped me with my issues on the low end of my tracks. ive spent alot of time working on it because im a bass head and for me to be happy its essential for me to have the speakers knocking.

the guys have a point.

the first thing i agree with is initial selection. if you choose a sound that doesnt have the low end qualities you want then just move on to another sound or kick sample. sitting there and trying to add low end to a kick that just doesnt have it just sounds like shit most of the time and i find the same for basslines. a db here and there is no biggie but major boosting never works for me unless im trying to distort it for effect. that is rare for me though.

make sure your kick has a nice attack also. you could have nice low end going but you dont percieve the kick because you hear no click. you should find it around the 1k area. i usually pull my eq in the midrange down a bit and pinch around 1k and sweep around till i get the attack isolated nicely. then deal with the gain of it from there to see how it fits with the track. if you cant get that going ive resorted to placing a nice handmade click in to coincide with the kicks attack. you can do this with samples also where you cut the attack from another kick and mix it with your existing kick. believe me it can do wonders on perception of the kick

i like to layer the mix also. i actually use headphones to mix the bass and kick. its up to you how you want them shelved together (kick lower than bass, bass lower than kick). most of the time for me bass is the lowest but i do have instances where im using really subby kicks and i have to organize it a bit differently. i use the headphones because i can hear the bass more detailed and focused. i can hear exactly when they start stepping on each other or clipping out. i then layer all the other stuff over that. careful of boosting things in the low end that dont need it. like keyboard parts other than the bass. you can really take a dump on the track that way and seems like a common mistake when people start out. i know when i started i just thought crank the bass on things and youll have bass. not the solution at all. its all about having everything nice and defined. oh, and my ns-10s are great at figuring out how the bass will sound on most systems. if you got thump there you are in good shape. just make sure you check the extreme low end so you dont have clipping down there.

i have a pair of grado labs sr-125's that are sick for headphone monitoring. they go really low and are open ear designed for a great open top end. i obviously dont advocate using these for mixing anything more than the lowend. but its nice to get another reference point, and you arent dealing with your rooms specific issues with bass.

oh, it took me awhile when i started to realise i wasnt treating my snares right. sometimes i would shave the low end off them too much. i found that a nice bump above (300-500) depending on the sounds. where the kick drum is to be really nice for punching shit up. it obviously depends on what type of snare dum you start with.


well sorry for rambling on, but i hope that can help you out


peace
tele

[abit]

There is a lot of things coming with experience.

Laying down 2-3 kiks, loops, playing on top of loop,
EQing, filtering out,parallel compression etc
But all this doesn't work with a wrong control.

After stopping in2the sht for so many times,
I strongly believe:
The main thing is monitoring.
THE MAIN THING.

Your first investment is a room and speakers. Period
With a wrong monitoring U doing something and U think it's right.

This is where the main mistake happening.

Can not drive in the darkness without your lights on.

peace..

[jazzy655]

Originally Posted by abit

There is a lot of things coming with experience.

Laying down 2-3 kiks, loops, playing on top of loop,
EQing, filtering out,parallel compression etc
But all this doesn't work with a wrong control.

After stopping in2the sht for so many times,
I strongly believe:
The main thing is monitoring.
THE MAIN THING.

Your first investment is a room and speakers. Period
With a wrong monitoring U doing something and U think it's right.

This is where the main mistake happening.

Can not drive in the darkness without your lights on.

peace..

yeah, at this point i think monitoring is my main problem. I'm using the Behringer Truths for monitoring. Luckily though, i'm getting a pair of Event Active Precision 8's next month, so we'll see how that goes...

[eyesore]

Originally Posted by jazzy655

yeah, at this point i think monitoring is my main problem. I'm using the Behringer Truths for monitoring. Luckily though, i'm getting a pair of Event Active Precision 8's next month, so we'll see how that goes...

If it's your monitoring, then why does other people's stuff sound better to you in your room through your monitors? Logic would dictate that faulty monitoring would lead to the opposite - that is, that your stuff would sound better balanced in your room but in some other monitoring environments it might sound worse.

People love to right away point the finger at monitoring these days. You can spend an awful lot of money on a room and still not have your mixes get any better.

I didn't listen to your stuff yet, but from the facts you've given us, I would suggest you probably just need to work on your skills and the techniques that many have outlined above are a good start.

Somebody wants more bass?! Man, I've been struggling my whole recording career with the opposite problem... Another thing to consider... Are you sure it's really bass that you're missing? As someone pointed out above,there's a lot more to a nice kick sound than bass. Try throwing something of yours and something else that you like into a frequency analyzer and get another view of what's really going on frequency wise.

Thanks.

[jazzy655]

Originally Posted by eyesore

If it's your monitoring, then why does other people's stuff sound better to you in your room through your monitors? Logic would dictate that faulty monitoring would lead to the opposite - that is, that your stuff would sound better balanced in your room but in some other monitoring environments it might sound worse.

People love to right away point the finger at monitoring these days. You can spend an awful lot of money on a room and still not have your mixes get any better.

I didn't listen to your stuff yet, but from the facts you've given us, I would suggest you probably just need to work on your skills and the techniques that many have outlined above are a good start.

Somebody wants more bass?! Man, I've been struggling my whole recording career with the opposite problem... Another thing to consider... Are you sure it's really bass that you're missing? As someone pointed out above,there's a lot more to a nice kick sound than bass. Try throwing something of yours and something else that you like into a frequency analyzer and get another view of what's really going on frequency wise.

Thanks.

Your're right "Bass" isn't exactly what i'm looking for per say. I'm talking more about thump, i guess i should have made that more clear. I've got plenty of bass, i just need to tightnen it up i guess.

As far as the spectrum analyzers, i have used them, and found that I was having stuff panned WAY to far out. As a result I was totally diminishing the center of my mix. This is where I believe all of the power to lie.

The decision to upgrade my monitors was made because I feel like crap about using all nice gear through all mogami wire, with the sound coming out of Behringers. If nothing, it will help people take me more seriously. Shallow I know, but it's a fact. Plus there is no doubt in my mind that monitoring is a very important part of the equation. I do monitor commercial hiphop out there, and on these same monitors I can hear things that just do not sound like the engineers would really let a mix with the problems i'm hearing out of their studios.

I'm talking cats like Jay-z and Talib and Xzibit. I know these guys can afford to get a good mix, and I hear way to many problems in their mixes with my monitors, which leads me to believe my monitors are adding there own little something, and not reproducing what is actually there.

i may be wrong, but this seems logical to me, as I don't hear these things through other sound systems.

wtf do i know though, i appreciate the replys, this is how i learn stuff.
you guys are dope!

[electric]

for me its all about

1) 1 layering samples (after pitching/manipulating/filtering so they work right). this can help you get a very dynamic kick/snare etc. it also enables you to get different attack/decay/sustain on the sound

2) when you mix - MULTS. running parallel stems and eq/compress differently and then blend to tastse. this gives you a whole new realm of sonic choices and can also totally change the sound by manipulating the attack/decay etc. thethrillfactor and e-cue have some incredible threads that explain how this is done both in the box and with outboard. search on e-cue or thethrillfactor and "hiphop kick". they also have a great thread on snares. this should give some good insight.

3) dont overcompress your drums!!! in hiphop drums rule. they need dynamics! dont necessarily put a compressor on just because everyone today uses compressors. many times this will suck your low end power out. use compression if you are doing mults but dont necessarily use them on every stem.

4) experiment. everytime i mix/build a kick or snare its totally different way than i did the last time. no rules.

good luck
electric

[TonyBelmont]

Have you tried EQ-ing?

Sometimes it makes me wonder... I have never had a hard time getting my kicks to thump.

[blayz2002]

I think you need to define whether the problem is in the production or the mix...

If in the production - you need to use better source material..or go into the layering / multing techniches described above.

If in the mix - then you need to A/B with good reference material, or on different systems to check how the low end is standing up...If you can try A/B again with good reference material on a your local club befor commiting to the mix, that will tell you for real if you ain't got he bass or the thump.

[jazzy655]

man, i started looking for some nice drum samples, and found some. made a track with them instead of using the drums off of my fantom.

BAAM! phat as hell, no processing!!

it's amazing that i've seen people say it's all about your source material, but my ears we're trying to hear that.
thanks for the help y'all that was crucial.

here are the tracks i made.

http://www.somobe.com/j-traxx_jazzy655_collabo.mp3
http://www.somobe.com/the_lords_beat.mp3 ( the lord is a guy in another forum that basically said i couldn't make a good beat i officially named him the lord. so i made this and shoved it in his face.. lol

[mars]

Originally Posted by abit

This is what I asking myself every time I build track:
1.Find the right sounds 1st.
That KIK could be grate, but it might not fit in he end let say.
It happens.
So if it doesn't - don't kill yourself with EQ..
Try different kik.
U not stuck here with the kik of life band.

2.Pitch your drumz. tune it. And Pitch it to the key of the song(!)
3.Use more filters, here U can avoid EQ plugz.

Plan for your self who is who in your overall range.
So U can see -
here is my basement(below 70, balls shaking, need sub for that),
here is my 1st floor (low mid range, hitting stomach),
Here is my 2d floor (high middle, brightness, presents, openness)
here is my roof (air).

Build this thing starting right from foundation.

Where I'm gonna place a vocal.
What might fight with this vocal

How about kik and bass.
Bass will go under kik or opposite.
(could be both ways)
If U use EQ cut more and don't boost(plug-ins)

More or less, but something like this.
U can think architecturally or any other way U like.
But every joint U do, in any art in general, U have to make it in harmony.
This is the way I think.
Hope this help.

peace..

Abit - this is the best explanation of the process that I have ever seen....

Also....

Bass is easy

getting the midrange right is the key...

[filterayok]

i got an idea---find a track that you think has a great kik.......and use THAT kik...(if its available/exposed)--------and i always try to remember one thing--my WORST beats are ALWAYS the one's i spent six hours looking for the right kik drum sound...know why??? Cause I thaught "if only i can get the right kik sound, then this beat will be ill!!!!" as soon as the illness of your beat depends on the sound of the kik, the amount of low end, or the stereo image, just trash the beat... a great beat starts as a great FEEL or IDEA, then you make it sonically appealing by using the right sounds, and for the most part, nobody cares about that anyway.....unless of course, you pull up a triton drum kit, start playing around with four sounds right next to eachother, and make a beat BASED on those sounds, and call the song "GRINDIN'" But even there, it's not the SOUNDS that people like---its the FEEL.....nowadays i spend way more time focusing on catchy melodies/ rythms/and feel....sounds and frequencies are relatively obsolete in comparison....in my opinion...

[abit]

Originally Posted by mars

Abit - this is the best explanation of the process that I have ever seen....

Also....

Bass is easy

getting the midrange right is the key...

It was pleasure to do. Thanx, bro.

I agree with U - sure, the bass is at the very beginning/end of the road to the "big city", and mids is somewhere inside.
We have to somehow make this picture clear and visible,
so everybody can see in details, witch street goes where
and what house on what street.

Also, I think it's just a classical way to look at this process.
Cuz as we know, every tune/artist has it own things U have to work with -
to hide something we wont "them" to know, to stress the other stuff that make this particular joint so spacial, different.. unique.
Hey, sometime a big mud right on the the middle of the ghetto would be exectly what we need.

[eyesore]

Originally Posted by jazzy655

Your're right "Bass" isn't exactly what i'm looking for per say. I'm talking more about thump, i guess i should have made that more clear. I've got plenty of bass, i just need to tightnen it up i guess.

As far as the spectrum analyzers, i have used them, and found that I was having stuff panned WAY to far out. As a result I was totally diminishing the center of my mix. This is where I believe all of the power to lie.

The decision to upgrade my monitors was made because I feel like crap about using all nice gear through all mogami wire, with the sound coming out of Behringers. If nothing, it will help people take me more seriously. Shallow I know, but it's a fact. Plus there is no doubt in my mind that monitoring is a very important part of the equation. I do monitor commercial hiphop out there, and on these same monitors I can hear things that just do not sound like the engineers would really let a mix with the problems i'm hearing out of their studios.

I'm talking cats like Jay-z and Talib and Xzibit. I know these guys can afford to get a good mix, and I hear way to many problems in their mixes with my monitors, which leads me to believe my monitors are adding there own little something, and not reproducing what is actually there.

i may be wrong, but this seems logical to me, as I don't hear these things through other sound systems.

wtf do i know though, i appreciate the replys, this is how i learn stuff.
you guys are dope!

In that case, yes, it is logical that your monitoring system could be at fault, but you didn't tell us this at first or else I missed that part. Before you said the others' work sounded good but yours didn't - that's what this thread was about. I am curious to how you came to the determination that you had a problem with the 'thump' in your songs then...

I see that you have now found your answer anyway and it was outside the realm of monitoring as I suspected in my first post. I am just now posting what I said above because my internet connection wouldn't let me before.and I was just now able to.

Maybe someday soon my computer will let me listen to your clips.

Congratulations.

[jazzy655]

Originally Posted by scruffydog

I do group the kit elements to a pair of outputs and they come up on my desk, often I will then use the desk groups in an effort to do a Michael Brauer type thing and pass them through outboard compression etc. (check out all his mix tips! he has 56 outs and I have 8 to play with so ...'':)
It helps in that I have control of the whole kit volume too.
But your drums seem good apart from a bit too much low eq on the kik and perhaps a little less kik to keep everything pushing.
Group the kit sounds and treat them as one family for a while.
This will perhaps keep you away from the eq a bit and make you focus on balances more in the track.

Later
Scruffydog

hey, i wanted to thank u man. what you told me actually help a lot.
later

[Charlie-O]

After listening to the song, off the bat you hav to much going on in the low end, with no seperation.... Oick and choose using filters, what you want down there. Alos the drums have no balls, are tese the stock drums, or sample cd maybe. Mangle those f@#ckers!!!!! Slap those things silly with a few samples off vinyl layered under there. At the end of the song its really appaent when the beat breaks down that theres no power in those kicks. Try resampling them into your keyboard, downsample even, it works.... but layering above all other things kicks ass. If you dont know were to start than sample from established producers.