mpc to protools tracking

[ghosttt]

i can't understand this.
i listen to my mpc 2000xl and my track sounds great.
i track it to protools and it sounds less than great. never sounds right.
how hot should i be tracking?

anyone have any tips tracking wise.

i track dry, ill add it later.

tracking to a 002rack

[Big 3rd]

Well off the rip, it sounds like you need an outboard converter. I'll suggest an apogee to start. I have an AD16x. Absolutely amazing! Now I'm diagnosing it to that because I started out with a 002 and I couldn't get the sound that I wanted. Everything sounded great before tracking, but after was disastrous. What I was hearing was less punch, focus, and presence. What was so interesting was that before I got the converter, I couldn't put my finger on what my problem was. It was only until I got my AD16x that I start noticing what I was missing.

Yeah man, the converters in the 002 will sabatoge your music. They're terrible. Don't do that to yourself. Oh yeah, and if you get the AD16x, I would suggest the DA16x also. Now.... we're talking about roughly $6000, but WORTH EVERY PENNY. If that's to rich for your blood, pick up the rosetta 200 or 800 with a Big Ben.

Now if you have a good outboard converter and you let me just ramble on about converters and stuff , then I would have to know what you're running your signal through before the 002.

[ghosttt]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Well off the rip, it sounds like you need an outboard converter. I'll suggest an apogee to start. I have an AD16x. Absolutely amazing! Now I'm diagnosing it to that because I started out with a 002 and I couldn't get the sound that I wanted. Everything sounded great before tracking, but after was disastrous. What I was hearing was less punch, focus, and presence. What was so interesting was that before I got the converter, I couldn't put my finger on what my problem was. It was only until I got my AD16x that I start noticing what I was missing.

Yeah man, the converters in the 002 will sabatoge your music. They're terrible. Don't do that to yourself. Oh yeah, and if you get the AD16x, I would suggest the DA16x also. Now.... we're talking about roughly $6000, but WORTH EVERY PENNY. If that's to rich for your blood, pick up the rosetta 200 or 800 with a Big Ben.

Now if you have a good outboard converter and you let me just ramble on about converters and stuff , then I would have to know what you're running your signal through before the 002.

this is my problem exactly.

too bad i know how to make music only....
this is a tip for people who are naive in the begggin and listen to the sales people.

mpc sounds great
into the 002 sounds like massive garbage
i tried everyhign
blahhh
its def a converter.
but 6 gs is steap anything from apogee thats a touch less weighty on the pocket, especially for this project its already running into overtime.

int he future i would def look into a rosetta.

anyone know anything about the apogee mini to get me out of this crunch, we got great product, but shitty sound to the point im loosing sleep at night.

lol

thanks for your help.

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by ghosttt

this is my problem exactly.

too bad i know how to make music only....
this is a tip for people who are naive in the begggin and listen to the sales people.

mpc sounds great
into the 002 sounds like massive garbage
i tried everyhign
blahhh
its def a converter.
but 6 gs is steap anything from apogee thats a touch less weighty on the pocket, especially for this project its already running into overtime.

int he future i would def look into a rosetta.

anyone know anything about the apogee mini to get me out of this crunch, we got great product, but shitty sound to the point im loosing sleep at night.

lol

thanks for your help.

Hey man, any time.
But check it out....you have to ask yourself, "what am I plan on doing with my product once it is completed?" Are you doing music for a deep rooted hobbie or a straight up career? This is an important question because it is the difference between you and your closest friends listening to you music and possibly millions of strangers listening to your music along with the competition. Now if you're choosing the big time than you have to be able to compete on not just production but sound quality. It has to sound industry.
I'll use some anologies to let you see what I mean.
Let's just say your favorite album was The Chronic 2001. Astonishing sound quality, right? Ok... we are going to imagine that album as a DVD, you know... very clear, crisp sound and picture. Now, without at least a decent outboard coverter, your album would be more of a EP copy of a copy of a VHS tape, not so clear. And no matter what you do to it, it will not have the same quality as that DVD. Meaning...no amount of mixing or mastering will make your music equal the quality of THE CHRONIC 2001.
Now... don't get me wrong, unless you have the standard of gear DRE has, you will only be able to get close to that type of quality, which is fine because it still would be great.
But I put this much emphasis on the conversion process because in the digital recording world... it is THEE most important step, as far as the actual capturing of the sound that's there.
So yes, $6000 is a hell of a lot (trust me when I was introduced to apogee and then seen the prices... I was like "what the f***!) But I am the type that hates to chase my tale. If I'm in it for a career move, then I don't want to be cheap today then have to buy what I really wanted tomorrow. So my suggestion is to get if you can... if you can't or you refuse to pay that much, then yeah get the minime or something... anything... but whatever you do...don't insult your musical ideas with the converters in the 002.
But my vote for you is the Rosetta 200. Shoot for that, then get the big ben later.

Peace man.

[ghosttt]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Hey man, any time.
But check it out....you have to ask yourself, "what am I plan on doing with my product once it is completed?" Are you doing music for a deep rooted hobbie or a straight up career? This is an important question because it is the difference between you and your closest friends listening to you music and possibly millions of strangers listening to your music along with the competition. Now if you're choosing the big time than you have to be able to compete on not just production but sound quality. It has to sound industry.
I'll use some anologies to let you see what I mean.
Let's just say your favorite album was The Chronic 2001. Astonishing sound quality, right? Ok... we are going to imagine that album as a DVD, you know... very clear, crisp sound and picture. Now, without at least a decent outboard coverter, your album would be more of a EP copy of a copy of a VHS tape, not so clear. And no matter what you do to it, it will not have the same quality as that DVD. Meaning...no amount of mixing or mastering will make your music equal the quality of THE CHRONIC 2001.
Now... don't get me wrong, unless you have the standard of gear DRE has, you will only be able to get close to that type of quality, which is fine because it still would be great.
But I put this much emphasis on the conversion process because in the digital recording world... it is THEE most important step, as far as the actual capturing of the sound that's there.
So yes, $6000 is a hell of a lot (trust me when I was introduced to apogee and then seen the prices... I was like "what the f***!) But I am the type that hates to chase my tale. If I'm in it for a career move, then I don't want to be cheap today then have to buy what I really wanted tomorrow. So my suggestion is to get if you can... if you can't or you refuse to pay that much, then yeah get the minime or something... anything... but whatever you do...don't insult your musical ideas with the converters in the 002.
But my vote for you is the Rosetta 200. Shoot for that, then get the big ben later.

Peace man.

i am a graphic designer by profession.
however i am also a musician since i am 11 (im 30) have owned everythin from a mackie d8b to a bullshit behringer eurodesk, nova, novations, supernovas, emus, mpcs the works if could waste money i would on it.

in the past 3 years we have really buckled down with this music we have amazing artists and have awesome content. beats lyrics concepts the works,
however its not the content that lacks its the sound coming back to us. well i agree about buying twice coming from the graphics industry i know all to well that you must spend 1 time spend right and be done with it. other wise in the long run you waste more loot.

do you suggest getting a good convertere before a really good compressor?

any word on a u 5 for signal warming

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by ghosttt

i am a graphic designer by profession.
however i am also a musician since i am 11 (im 30) have owned everythin from a mackie d8b to a bullshit behringer eurodesk, nova, novations, supernovas, emus, mpcs the works if could waste money i would on it.

in the past 3 years we have really buckled down with this music we have amazing artists and have awesome content. beats lyrics concepts the works,
however its not the content that lacks its the sound coming back to us. well i agree about buying twice coming from the graphics industry i know all to well that you must spend 1 time spend right and be done with it. other wise in the long run you waste more loot.

do you suggest getting a good convertere before a really good compressor?

any word on a u 5 for signal warming

Like I said man, the converter is thee most important step. I mean... why get a good compressor that adds that warmth, if you can't hear the compressor for what it really is. See, a converter brings out the small details that gets overlooked. Its like someone with less than 20/20 vision all of a sudden putting on glasses or contacts or even better, having lasik surgery.
Tell you what... try to find someone you know or go to a place that rents equipment and pick up a great converter, if you can. You will be astonished at how good your current equipment and your music sounds. No bullshit!
You will want to tell every person you know that deals with music. NO BULLSHIT!
GET THE DAMN CONVERTER!!!

[blayz2002]

Trust me bruv...Big 3rd is right.

You saying you got awesome talent, but the sound ain't right (I know the feeling I started with some cheap ass converters, the guy in the shop said don't buy em..but I was a newbie and thought hey a sound card is a sound!!!...duh!) Now I still ain't real high end but the card I got now is repping my talents better and the mix comes together quicker, less time on correction eq and filtering more time just bringing out the fatness and niceness. You'll get better depth, verbs and delays tails will sound smoother...Then you can start stretching your skills

If you can't stretch to he Apogees AD16. Then maybe look at the mini me as a 2 chanel front end...and come out of that by SPDIF into the 002 (if poss) or at the least get your self a Fireface..I think that would probably sound better than the 002?

[TonyBelmont]

YOU DON"T NEED A BETTER CONVERTER!.... You would be shocked if I told you how many major label artists and producers are tracking their beats with 002 converters! They are actually not bad at all... I sold my HD ACcel system and got a 002 for the house and I bet you if I played the same kick tracked through the 192 and the 002 you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. We are talking about tracking synths, keyboards and MPC's, which are dynamically loud sound sources to begin with. You won't notice the huge sonic improvement on these kinds of sources. Especially if you have a compressor in front of the converter and are getting a nice hot level into it.

How are you tracking your MPC into the 002??? Let me guess... You've got your keyboard plugged directly into the back of the 002, right? There's your problem... The MPC put's out an unbalanced high impedance "instrument level"... What you ideally would want is for the 002 to see a balanced +4 "line level". This is what a DI is for. Most high quality preamps come with really good DI's, like the GTQ which we talked about in another thread. It doesn't matter what kind of converter you are using... if you don't have a good DI/ preamp it will always sound weak.

You need to get a good preamp/ DI to track through. It's as simple as that. Or you could blow your money on a converter and keep having the same problem that you have now.

Also, the U5 is not good for "signal warming", it is actually quite good for the opposite though. I would use it if I wanted a semi-bright crisp sound.... If you want a "warm sound" or round bottom end, then the best way to go is a Neve style preamp.

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

YOU DON"T NEED A BETTER CONVERTER!.... You would be shocked if I told you how many major label artists and producers are tracking their beats with 002 converters! They are actually not bad at all... I sold my HD ACcel system and got a 002 for the house and I bet you if I played the same kick tracked through the 192 and the 002 you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. We are talking about tracking synths, keyboards and MPC's, which are dynamically loud sound sources to begin with. You won't notice the huge sonic improvement on these kinds of sources. Especially if you have a compressor in front of the converter and are getting a nice hot level into it.

How are you tracking your MPC into the 002??? Let me guess... You've got your keyboard plugged directly into the back of the 002, right? There's your problem... The MPC put's out an unbalanced high impedance "instrument level"... What you ideally would want is for the 002 to see a balanced +4 "line level". This is what a DI is for. Most high quality preamps come with really good DI's, like the GTQ which we talked about in another thread. It doesn't matter what kind of converter you are using... if you don't have a good DI/ preamp it will always sound weak.

You need to get a good preamp/ DI to track through. It's as simple as that. Or you could blow your money on a converter and keep having the same problem that you have now.

Also, the U5 is not good for "signal warming", it is actually quite good for the opposite though. I would use it if I wanted a semi-bright crisp sound.... If you want a "warm sound" or round bottom end, then the best way to go is a Neve style preamp.

Hey Tony, first off...I'm not going to get into a heated battle with you and your experience like that Divine cat but rather, I've got a question for you. When tracking synths and the like, I run them through the regular mic xlr inputs in my 1073dpd(which is wonderful I might add). Does it make a difference whether the signal be ran through the DIs or the mic inputs? Are xlr inputs only for mics/vocals?
Maybe you might be right, but you still have to admit that great conversion makes for an easier fight at the mixing stage, as far as making things fit and making your sound stage deeper and wider. It's funny, I've heard several say that the converters in the 002 were fine. I don't know, maybe I'm still a young grasshopper at engineering. When introduced to the importance of good conversion, everything just fell into place for me.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Hey Tony, first off...I'm not going to get into a heated battle with you and your experience like that Divine cat but rather, I've got a question for you. When tracking synths and the like, I run them through the regular mic xlr inputs in my 1073dpd(which is wonderful I might add). Does it make a difference whether the signal be ran through the DIs or the mic inputs? Are xlr inputs only for mics/vocals?
Maybe you might be right, but you still have to admit that great conversion makes for an easier fight at the mixing stage, as far as making things fit and making your sound stage deeper and wider. It's funny, I've heard several say that the converters in the 002 were fine. I don't know, maybe I'm still a young grasshopper at engineering. When introduced to the importance of good conversion, everything just fell into place for me.

Hmmm.... So you connect your keyboards directly to the XLR mic in's on the 1073dpd, huh?

I don't see a problem with doing that, I've done that in the past with 1073 modules to get the extra distortion from overloading the mic input, etc. But, I can't say that I would want to do that all the time. You might want to pick up a couple Countryman's, and run your keyboards through that on the way in. I think you might be even happier with the results. It will sound less crunched.

Converters can be important... There is room for improvement from the 002, but to get that extra 5-10% of quality you have to spend 5-10x times as much... Also, you probably won't hear as much of a difference on keyboards and synths, it's more important on vocals and accoustic instruments. I went from using the 192 I/O everyday to using the 002 rack, and didn't really see the huge loss of quality I expected. It's not as noticeable with keyboards, synths and MPC's..

More important than the converters is the front end.. You will notice a much, much bigger improvement spending $2500 on a really good two channel pre/DI, than you would spending $6k on a new converter.

[HDGuru]

I honestly get great results boosting my MPC, and synth -10 outs to +4 with an off the shelf analog Mackie. Retail value 1500 bucks.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by HDGuru

I honestly get great results boosting my MPC, and synth -10 outs to +4 with an off the shelf analog Mackie. Retail value 1500 bucks.

I'm sure the Mackie is fine for increasing the volume. But, I wouldn't want to use it for the same reason I wouldn't plug a guitar into a Mackie board. It can't really accomodate for the high impedance of many synths... It will make it louder no doubt, but you will also loose some of the high end as well as some of the very low end... It would be best to use a DI in front of the Mackie... But, then again, the Mackie doesn't sound very good... Actually, it doesn't even really have a sound..

[jgo]

I too was blown away by the weakness of tracking directly into my Digi002r.

I think I mentioned in a seperate thread, that the diff between tracking thru my Digi002 & tracking thru my analog board was so dramatic, i thought something was wrong with my Digi002.
I mean it wasn't just mild or subtle, it was incredible.

I realize the whole unbalanced-balanced / -10/+4 issue, but still, the results I get are pretty sad if i go MPC3000 ---> Digi002r.

So my solution is to continue & track thru my analog board.
Which isn't that bad for me, but, it's pain in the ass if i am just laying down a quick beat cd or demo.

Mr. Belmont, as far as DI's go, know any 8 ch versions worth there salt?

Or heck... I may just build my own.
I have a homebrew Neve project which is long overdue anyhow, might as well build a few DI's while i am at it.

If anyones into DIY, Jensen has some schematics available.

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/apps_sc.html

[HDGuru]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

I'm sure the Mackie is fine for increasing the volume. But, I wouldn't want to use it for the same reason I wouldn't plug a guitar into a Mackie board. It can't really accomodate for the high impedance of many synths... It will make it louder no doubt, but you will also loose some of the high end as well as some of the very low end... It would be best to use a DI in front of the Mackie... But, then again, the Mackie doesn't sound very good... Actually, it doesn't even really have a sound..

Which is pretty much why I just use it as a big 32x8 direct box for my synth modules. Run it flat, and it gives you a fairly transparent boost from -10 to +4.
I've been doing it this way for years, and don't see any real reason to change up.
I've heard good reviews on the Midas analog mixers. The Verona seems to be a nice one for tracking, but I'm unsure of how much it costs. Anyone using a Midas Verona, or comparable analog mixer to track synth's?

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by jgo

I too was blown away by the weakness of tracking directly into my Digi002r.

I think I mentioned in a seperate thread, that the diff between tracking thru my Digi002 & tracking thru my analog board was so dramatic, i thought something was wrong with my Digi002.
I mean it wasn't just mild or subtle, it was incredible.

I realize the whole unbalanced-balanced / -10/+4 issue, but still, the results I get are pretty sad if i go MPC3000 ---> Digi002r.

So my solution is to continue & track thru my analog board.
Which isn't that bad for me, but, it's pain in the ass if i am just laying down a quick beat cd or demo.

Mr. Belmont, as far as DI's go, know any 8 ch versions worth there salt?

Or heck... I may just build my own.
I have a homebrew Neve project which is long overdue anyhow, might as well build a few DI's while i am at it.

If anyones into DIY, Jensen has some schematics available.

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/apps_sc.html

There is a company called the Desk Doctor who does a lot of the servicing on SSL consoles on the west coast... I can probably get them to whip up another DI-8, which is a really nice 8 channel DI for $995.... It's the same thing I used for Pharell's setup, although he has 24 channels worth with built in summing... Drop me an email at tony@highprofileaudio.com if you are interested...

--Tony

[Shobiz]

On the back of the 002R, on inputs 5-8 it has -10/+4 switch would that help? That's what I use for the moment.

[TonyBelmont]

No, it's still looking for line levels of -10 or +4...

[hitsville]

hey guys, Tony, while we're at it, I've got a question about DI's and samplers

I'm using 3 different samplers (sp, s950, asr-10) and I'm about to cop a 2 channel ADDA converter and a 2channel preamp. Now my problem is that I'd like to be able to run my 3 samplers into the preamp at the same time, so I was thinking about pluging the samplers into my old tascam 688 (cassette multitrack with a cool mixer section), and then the 2outs from the tascam to the preamp. Now my question is, if I do that, where would I have to plug a DI ? can I do SAMPLERS ---> TASCAM --(stereo output)--> DI ------> stereo preamp, or do I have to get a DI for each sampler before sending it to the tascam ? OR maybe the tascam thing is just a bad idea and I should find something else ?

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by hitsville

hey guys, Tony, while we're at it, I've got a question about DI's and samplers

I'm using 3 different samplers (sp, s950, asr-10) and I'm about to cop a 2 channel ADDA converter and a 2channel preamp. Now my problem is that I'd like to be able to run my 3 samplers into the preamp at the same time, so I was thinking about pluging the samplers into my old tascam 688 (cassette multitrack with a cool mixer section), and then the 2outs from the tascam to the preamp. Now my question is, if I do that, where would I have to plug a DI ? can I do SAMPLERS ---> TASCAM --(stereo output)--> DI ------> stereo preamp, or do I have to get a DI for each sampler before sending it to the tascam ? OR maybe the tascam thing is just a bad idea and I should find something else ?

I would explore other options...

How are you going to track, two channels at a time?

Do you need to be able to hear all 3 samplers at the same time?

[hitsville]

Tony thanks for the quick reply! thumbsup

well the reason why I'd like to be able to hear all samplers at the same time is because that way I would be able to play a sequence and hear the whole beat playing. I like to start tracking only when the beat is 100%finished. Then, for tracking, I would just have to mute every track I dont want to record, and pan hard left/right the 2 others. Also I wouldnt have to plug-unplug each sampler everytime.. maybe a patch would be more appropriate for this tho. I guess the best would be a good summing board or even a passive folcrom but I'm not sue I'll be able to afford one soon

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by ghosttt

do you suggest getting a good convertere before a really good compressor?

any word on a u 5 for signal warming

an avalon U5 is more "clear" than warm. for line level stuff like samplers/drum machines i've had better luck going into the line input on a Neve module.. with the transformer, eq, and the filters you get a LOT more tone shaping options.

it sounds to me like you need something like a phoenix audio "nicerizer" for submixing your beats.. transformers saturate in the low end and will thicken your beats considerably... IRON is your friend & mine.

i'd probably get an A/D before a compressor... compressors are kind of tricky in that there's only a few compressors which help every signal you run thru them.. they're a lot more specific to the sound you're after.. probably the most versatile one out there is a UREI 1176.... but i'm sure almost everyone will disagree and say "x" is more versatile.

given the choice between a crummy A/D and an 1176 or a cranesong HEDD and rnc i'd take the HEDD/rnc combo.

a good A/D will generally help everything you track.. a compressor will be dependent on the sound you're after.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by hitsville

Tony thanks for the quick reply! thumbsup

well the reason why I'd like to be able to hear all samplers at the same time is because that way I would be able to play a sequence and hear the whole beat playing. I like to start tracking only when the beat is 100%finished. Then, for tracking, I would just have to mute every track I dont want to record, and pan hard left/right the 2 others. Also I wouldnt have to plug-unplug each sampler everytime.. maybe a patch would be more appropriate for this tho. I guess the best would be a good summing board or even a passive folcrom but I'm not sue I'll be able to afford one soon

I've known people who used API 8200A's for that kind of setup.... A desk doctor DI-8 and API 8200a would be pretty cool....

Or you could buy the SUM-(DI-)Active which would give you 24 DI's and passive summing for under $3000... Maybe I could get them to make you a SUM-Active 8 for less money!

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by ghosttt

i can't understand this.
i listen to my mpc 2000xl and my track sounds great.
i track it to protools and it sounds less than great. never sounds right.
how hot should i be tracking?

wait a minute....... did you try using the S/PDIF out of the 2000 into the 002?

[hitsville]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Or you could buy the SUM-(DI-)Active which would give you 24 DI's and passive summing for under $3000... Maybe I could get them to make you a SUM-Active 8 for less money!

yep! that's exactly what I would need. Not sure I'll be able to afford it tho. Maybe I can just get 6 radial DI's (2 for the asr, 1 for the sp, 1 for the 950 and 2 for my turntables) and use that tascam mixer until Ill be able to afford a API 8200..

how much do you think a sum-active 8 would cost tho ?

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by hitsville

yep! that's exactly what I would need. Not sure I'll be able to afford it tho. Maybe I can just get 6 radial DI's (2 for the asr, 1 for the sp, 1 for the 950 and 2 for my turntables) and use that tascam mixer until Ill be able to afford a API 8200..

how much do you think a sum-active 8 would cost tho ?

How much would 6 x Radial DI's cost?You might want to look at the 8 channel Desk Doctor DI for that kind of money.

The 8 channel DI costs $995, So I'm guessing somewhere under $1500 for a summing version....

[robmix]

Why not get a Mackie for monitoring all your synths/samplers, then for tracking plug the synth outputs into a stereo mic pre with a built in DI like Great Rivers, Brent Averill 1272's etc. ? That's the way I've been doing it for years. With over 20 synths Tony's DI idea get's a little overwhelming. Though if I had a smaller setup I might go that route.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by robmix

Why not get a Mackie for monitoring all your synths/samplers, then for tracking plug the synth outputs into a stereo mic pre with a built in DI like Great Rivers, Brent Averill 1272's etc. ? That's the way I've been doing it for years. With over 20 synths Tony's DI idea get's a little overwhelming. Though if I had a smaller setup I might go that route.

Sure, you could do that too... I love running my synths into the GTQ2 when tracking...

But, say you had 20 synths.... The 24 channel Sum-Active would take care of all your needs and you wouldn't have to go over and keep plugging and unplugging keyboards. It's a keyboard patchbay, so you could have a total of 48 available inputs for DI purposes and SUM everything down to 2 straight to your 2 channel converter! Plus, the thing really has a great sound... you've heard it on a lot of songs, you just never knew it. I would say the sound compares well to the Avalon M5 DI that I used for years.

If they would make a SUM-Active 8 for him, it would be the perfect piece for his application.

[robmix]

That's cool Tony, what kind of price range would a 24 sum-active be in ? Are they gang-able, i.e. could you have 72 inputs ?

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by robmix

That's cool Tony, what kind of price range would a 24 sum-active be in ? Are they gang-able, i.e. could you have 72 inputs ?

Under $3000....

They weren't specifically made to gang them, but if you have that many keyboards, you probably have more than 2 channels of AD. The cool thing about the Desk Doctor is that they are really great to work with. Bruce Millet and I, kind of came up with the concept, but never implemented it until Pharell needed exactly that, and it has become very popular since. If there is a need for people they really listen and come up with a really good solution.

[TonyBelmont]

Here's a picture of the standard 24 channel... The summing version is blue and has an output fader...

On the back it has 6 x DB25 connectors for the I/O and 24 more 1/4" in's on the front. It works as a patchbay, because using the front in's breaks the input signal from the DB25 input of that channel.