Put The Needle On The Record

[sinsay]

Opinions on the stylus anyone?

1. For sample quality.
2. For recording cuts.

[Fredrik]

I would use shure m44-7 for both. good tracking, loud! (9,5 mV) more bass than
most. thumbsup

[7 Hz]

Originally Posted by sinsay

Opinions on the stylus anyone?

1. For sample quality.
2. For recording cuts.

Sample quality I understand (you would want this to the the highest quality possible, right?)

Recording cuts?? What like, recording whole albums? Or what?

Anyway, Shure M44-7's are good needles for scratching with and DJing in general, but I doubt they are top-of-the-line sound quality. The treble is not as extended on them. i use them on my 1210's, and I do sample off them, but this is just lazyness (I think?).

For sampling and whatever, you want the best quality possible. You know that the quality starts with the deck itself, right? So you need an Linn LP12 with a nice arm and cart combo on it. My LP12 is in the cupboard because I have no room for it :-( Think I need a bigger flat for 3 turntables...

[sinsay]

yep,
best quality recording (sample) for a 1200 that is

but,

cut=scratching etc..

thanx

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by adamatic

doesn't the 44-7 have a mid or bass peak sorta like the sm57 to make it cut through in live pa situations?

It suppose to have an essentially flat frequency responce between 20hz-17khz according to shure.

I also think it depends on the source that´s going to be sampled as well. I sample mostly breaks or dirty/funny sounding stuff from old records, I doubt that there are any information above 17khz on a obscure 45 anyway.

[Fredrik]

I dont know, I think I´m used to hear records played through club nedles anyway.
Would I even like the sound totaly flat? What you say make perfect sense though,
and it would perhaps be rewarding to have a collection of nedles just as one has a collection of mics to try to tailor the sound going to the sampler.

I still hold up the M44-7 as the champ for cuts though, but you can have good results
from something like the stanton al500 to, but it doesn´t sound as good.

[rickrock305]

Originally Posted by adamatic

also, dont forget to align your your tonearm, that shit will eat your records if you dont have it setup right. .

how do you set yours up?

[RFButter]

Originally Posted by rickrock305

how do you set yours up?

I have 1200's w/ s arm's, so I cock mine to the right so that the stylus lines up with the back end of the arm. If you have a straight arm, you don't need to do much of anything.

[rjx]

What if I needed something for just sampling and no turntablisim? Would the M44 still be a good choice?

I want the best sound quality that I can buy for about $100- $125

85% of what I sample are breaks and drums / percussion.
15% everything else

How does the Shure Whitelabel compare in the quality of sound?

I was searching around for the Clearaudio stuff. I couldn't find a price for the Gamma, but the Insider Gold goes for dfegad $10,000.


Thx

[sinsay]

I haven't heard any one mention Ortofon. Are they not any good?

[ttauri]

Originally Posted by rjx

What if I needed something for just sampling and no turntablisim? Would the M44 still be a good choice?

If only for sampling, I don't see much reason to go with a DJ cart (compromise accuracy for cueing purposes). When I asked about this a while back (in this thread), Bob Olhsson's recommendation was the Shure v15, and that's been the near universal recommendation from everyone else I've since quizzed about carts too.

Personally, I'm using the Stanton 681eee (also mentioned in the linked thread), and that's working very well for me.

How does the Shure Whitelabel compare in the quality of sound?

I've only DJ'ed with them, but I was impressed with the sound.

Peece,
T. Tauri

[Disco D]

I use Ortofons. They sound great and are easy to scratch with but eat your records faster than Shures. I think Shures sound muddy.

[rickrock305]

i also use ortofons. They sound good and scratch good. Haven't really experimented so i couldn't say how they stack up against others.

[Thermionic]

Let me preface this by saying that I have utmost respect for Shure, and believe the 44G is one of the finest carts available if scratching is your thing.

I've spent the last few days fitting a new arm / psu etc to a TT for a well-known DJ. The DJ in question likes to use 44Gs.

Once the arm was fitted (it was a custom-job, needing various parts machined from scratch) I fitted a trusty Ortofon OM-30 "Super" and looked at the test-record waveforms on the 'scope. Waveforms looked clean, and I proceeded to fit the 44G and align with protractor...

You don't even want to think what the sine waves looked like from the 44G... Monster distortion... The waves had a "fuzz" around them - I've never seen anything like it before. Although I've never looked at DJ carts through a 'scope before (aside from the Ortofon "E" which is about as "hi-fi" as DJ carts go IMHO), I was horrified...

The 44G is a wise choice if you scratch for 2 reasons: it stays in the groove well, despite its low force; because it tracks at 1.5g, it won't wear your grooves like carts that track @ 3g+ Fidelity-wise...forget it!

I can imagine many DJs liking the 44G because of the distortion - once it's been sucked to death through a "smiley" graphic, you'll still have some presence to mid-range instruments.

For sampling / transcription, do yourself a favour and buy even a modest hi-fi cart - for a DJ cart to sound good it would have to contravene the laws of physics - you can't have a suspension / cantilever that can handle back-cueing, and pick up minute HF detail at the same time - ruggedness is traded against sound-quality, and that's-a-fact-Jack.

Justin

edit: OM-series are cool for a good reason: the transducer is the same, DJ or Hi-Fi - therefore you can interchange the DJ styli and the OM-30 styli etc (remember to adjust the bias / tracking force). Although the 30 is a modest hi-fi cart, it is many leagues above any DJ cart.

[rickrock305]

man, if your sampling i would think that you would want that grimey distortion. I would myself. While your at it, glue a penny to the top of it!! What yall know bout that?

[Fredrik]

Worth checking for fidelity is perhaps the needles and carts from Grado labs. They have a DJ line aswell with a frequency responce of 10 - 50 khz. I haven´t heard them myself though.

[ttauri]

Hey Justin:

While the subject's up, you know if there's any performance difference between the typical all-in-one Ortofons and the headshell-mounting ones? Just something I've wondered about from time to time.

Peece,
T. Tauri

[rjx]

Originally Posted by ttauri

If only for sampling, I don't see much reason to go with a DJ cart (compromise accuracy for cueing purposes). When I asked about this a while back (in this thread), Bob Olhsson's recommendation was the Shure v15, and that's been the near universal recommendation from everyone else I've since quizzed about carts too.

Personally, I'm using the Stanton 681eee (also mentioned in the linked thread), and that's working very well for me.


I've only DJ'ed with them, but I was impressed with the sound.

Peece,
T. Tauri

Good looking out,

After reading the thread you left the link for, I think I will grab the 681 since I am always digging and coming back with stacks. Most of it I have no idea what it is until I listen through the entire record.

Thanks for the help

[TonyBelmont]

I've used nothing but Ortofon's since 98!

[Thermionic]

T.Tauri:

I prefer the Ortofon that you bolt onto the shell manually. Concordes are only aligned perfectly on SL1200/10, and even then, some people disagree with the alignment compromise (on a pivoted tone-arm, alignment is always a "compromise" - it's a question of finding the best one that minimises distortion across the record's groove-area). Using the bolt-on carts enables you to be anally retentive about alignment with a protractor, which I prefer. To my knowledge, the transducers are the same, so any difference in sound-quality should come about due to mechanical differences such as arm resonance etc etc.

its not something i really look forward to doing

Ha! It certainly isn't is it! You would've thought that in the advanced age we live in, someone would've developed a more pain-free method by now...

I even have an ELITE protractor somewhere - this one is really funny - it enables you to draw graphs to illustrate where the distortion areas will be! After drawing graphs for several hours (if you haven't lost your will to live at that point...) you can attain a "compromise" you can live with!

Eliptical carts are a bad move for scratching IMO - I would suggest Spherical is the only choice. Another concern with Es will be that, unless the alignment is highly accurate, you'll run the risk of damaging the groove walls... The Ortofon E's suspension is not up to proper "scratching" in my experience, and will only withstand mild back-cueing if you want the cantiveler to stay aligned straight in the suspension... Get an Orto "S" if you've got fleas I say.

I started using Ortofon in '88 ("Concorde Pro" - I think the "Nightclub" came along in about 1990), and still feel they're the best sound-wise.

Justin

[Thermionic]

Custom Turntables: I've attached a picture of the one I've just finished...

Please bear in mind that a man has to make a living - the TT in question would not be my favourite in all honesty... The deck is for a certain DJ/Producer who is pretty well-known, but I'm going to keep those details to myself.

As well as the arm, the deck has been lagged with Sorbothane, and has received all manner of other mods such as the suspension-feet. The outboard psu seems to have improved things. The M.4.4.G cart is a dog - it does everything but sit up and beg...I'm working on the client to see if I can persuade him to use a better cart...thing is, he's sponsored by S.h.u.r.e and V*****x, which is why I guess he wanted the deck modd-ed in the first place, rather than buy a better deck.

Justin

[ttauri]

Originally Posted by Thermionic

edit: OM-series are cool for a good reason: the transducer is the same, DJ or Hi-Fi - therefore you can interchange the DJ styli and the OM-30 styli etc (remember to adjust the bias / tracking force). Although the 30 is a modest hi-fi cart, it is many leagues above any DJ cart.

Are the 30 styli interchangeable for all the OM variants? There's the blues, the blacks, the reds, the whites... Never looked into what the different colors signified.

Peece,
T. Tauri

(P.S. Made some progress with a certain company on my mixer project--still not a done deal, but some interest has been stoked. )

[Thermionic]

All OM bodies are the same, regardless of model - the stylus is where the difference is. The colours are a marketing thing - you can fit any OM-styli to any OM body.

Look forward to seeing the mixer!

Justin

BTW, The difference between a "Nightclub" stylus and an OM-30 is not one, but many divisions upwards - DJ-styli stink in a major way unfortunately...

[jgo]

This is good timing for this thread as I am in the middle of setting up my new production lab.
I've also used Ortofrons for years, I also have Shure Whitelabels which are ok (but needle bends so damn easily).
I decide to step it up for my production setup/sampling turntable & ordered a Shure M97xe cartridge... Was around $90.
http://www.needlz.com/cartridges/m97xe.asp
Whats your opinion on that piece ?
It will be used for listening & sampling only, no scratching, just really light back cue'ing during playback & sampling.

I've also been debating what to use for my phono pre-amp stage, been using a Rane TTM54i mixer, but was debating getting a dedciated RIAA Phono Amp, like the Rane or new ART Phono/USB Plus. Or building my own RIAA amp stage.
The only thing is I sometimes like to sample with EQ & ocassionally sample in a backcue, cut or "stop/brake" effect from a record, so a mixer with EQ & crossfader is most likely what I will stick with.
My Rane 54i is top notch for the task, but I have always felt the EQ's were sort of weak.
So I was wondering if anyone knew a cheap mixer that sounds good & has killer EQ's on it.

I do have a 56 coming soon, but that will be part of the DJ setup which is apart from my production lab.


peace.

[Thermionic]

It's funny that the M97xe should be mentioned - I've been on the 'phone this afternoon with the DJ whose TT I customised, and I've persuaded him into going for the 97! I feel relieved, because I was genuinely concerned he wouldn't be able to hear the new arm + mods with a 44G... Considering he's supposed to be converting an army of TTs to the same spec, I felt somewhat dishonest charging him knowing that the 44G would make the TT sound the same even if attached to an arm made of rotting wood.

I wouldn't recommend any kind of back-cueing for the 97 unfortunately - I guess you could find the spot in the groove, hit the brake and rewind very gently... I only recommended the 97 to the aforementioned DJ 'cos he's sponsored by Shure - I wouldn't back-cue a 97 if my money paid for it...

Regarding preamps: as a rule, a standalone preamp will comfortably outperform a “scratch” mixer – this is because a typical scratch-mixer has VCAs that will degrade sound, as well as pretty average circuitry if compared to something minimal designed for sound alone.

As to what preamp… TTauri uses a Creek, and is happy with it – the Creek is a discrete design, and is very good value IMO.

I guess the rule for a preamp will be to find something in your price-range and audition it – there’s a lot to choose from. Ironically, the omission of phono-inputs from mass-produced integrated amps (although they’ve made a comeback in recent times – you don’t get rid of vinyl that easily!) has created a competitive scene amongst standalone preamps, and there are some really nice units out there.

edit: IMHO, even the most expensive DJ mixers sound awful - if you want quality, get a standalone preamp and keep the mixer for DJ duties.

Justin

[kallisto]

All of the needles you guys mentioned were just " alright " for sampling...
The shure m44's are just o.k for cutting b/c they claim to add enough weight to hold the stylus in place....this is true but they eat the crap out of your records....and in my opinion they are not that good at all...Ive blown through at least 5 pairs...if you want a dope cartridge for djing clubs , cutting and will give you a clean/crisp sound that you can afford...go with the Ortophon blue "dj" series...you can get them for $80 each if you go to right spot....or go with the shure white label-$100....really warm but some of shures lower end cartridges will sound a little muddy...the ortophon will give you better highs and a brighter sound.
If you want the best for sampling and budget is of no concern then that can get a little expensive.....alot of sample based producers dont know about the world of "hi-fi " cartridges...there are two catagories of cartridges ..." DJ " and " hi-fi"....and in "hi-fi" you also have two sub groups and they are divided into Moving magnet and Moving coil cartridges....If you use a moving coil cartridge you have have a " Moving coil step-up transformer" ......Low output moving coil cartridges are perhaps the best sounding cartridge designs available. However, their low output makes them incompatible with many modern amplifiers which only have Moving Magnet phono stages. Furthermore, cartridges with very low output below 300 uV need special attention to overall system noise if the best performance is to be obtained...
Shure V15VxMR---$350-400 ( moving magnet ) this is what I use but is out of production
Ortophon 540 Mk2 --$250....( moving magnet ) this is my backup...a little better in the bass and crisp hi's but doesnt have the crazy mids as the shure...if you could combine both you would have the illest cartridge"
Ortophon Kontrapunkt A ---around $ 450 ( moving coil )
" " " " " " MC-20 super 2---$575 ( moving coil )
---the list can go on up over $1000 dollars per cartridge for the moving coil ones!!!!!
At the end is the question do you need to spend that much? ...NO you do not but it will make the world of a diff. and you did ask what the best was and Shure M44's and low end Ortophons dont have S%$^t on these!!!!
Then you should upgrade your stages and other equipment
Gold rca cables from monster cable for your turntables
-A Hi-end Phono Preamp ...I recomend one that can switch from Moving magnet ( which is standard ) and Moving Coil
-A record Cleaner...( this is a must!!!) The nitty Gritty line is the shit
All of this equipmentI listed is NOT needed to get by.... sometimes you can get caught up in the " I need the best and if I dont have it my music wont be bangin scenario " and you have to know"how to get by." with what you have....My beleif is if you are a sample based producer you should treat the sound you pull off your records with the most importance b/c before you add other sounds and instruments " THAT IS YOUR INSTRUMENT!!"

KALLISTO

[disco2k3]

I have a second set-up for sampling. A "hi-fi" turntable with a decent audio technica cartridge and a project a preamp. A normal DJ setup makes my "hi-fi" setup sound brittle (since the lows are tight and the highs are sharp) There's something to be said about making your samples sound gritty by playing back through a 1200 and a dj mixer, as it has that familiar sonic signature, but I usually find myself sampling with my "hi-fi" setup. For sampling and playing with a 1200 I've been happy with 44g's. A good resource for the non DJ oriented side of turntables, preamps and needles is needledoctor.com. They have a pretty thoughtful selection.

[con?one]

Shure M447s for cutting, Whitelabels for sampling