automation fader rides?

[ghosttt]

i have heard this mention a few times here, i have been producing hip hop for a while, but recently been pushed into kinda helping out our engineer mix.

our engineer comes from a house music background (dont know if this helps or hurts right now) he can make our mixes very clear but i feel soemthing is lacking especially getttiing the vocal to sit right.

any help would be greatly appreciatd.

[XHipHop]

describe what you don't like about the vocals further...

and i honestly don't do much fader riding on the vocals. I have a few nice compressors and one or a combination of them usually gets the vocals to sit the way i want...that's as long as the rapper is consistent and not moving all around the mic.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by ghosttt

any help would be greatly appreciatd.

Find a different engineer.

Especially if he is not giving you the sound you want.

Fader rides help but there are so may other aspects that go on in the mixing process that to narrow it down to one thing might be a little difficult.

Its better instead to rack your brains on it to find someone who gets what you want.

[ghosttt]

well the vocal seems like its becoming engulfed in the music esepcially the heavier parts. its not the volume of the track thats pretty even, i just know that when listening to other productions i can turn my headphones down really low, actually put them on the table and stand up and still hear his voice and the snare.

his voice is kinda getting lost. we have tried eqing, but it takes the ooomph out of it.

at this point theres been so much time invested we dont know if looking for a new engineer is the answer with this project.

i do hear what you are saying though.

we have an avalon, and a dbx (nothign spectacular) , the rest are p tools plugs.

[XHipHop]

without hearing the music, he should be working on the parts of the music that are crowding the vocals. Either bring down the volume of those parts or eq out frequencies in the vocal range.

Listen to some of your favorite records and listen to how the background tracks are mixed to get a better idea of wether or not your stuff is too loud.

[ghosttt]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

without hearing the music, he should be working on the parts of the music that are crowding the vocals. Either bring down the volume of those parts or eq out frequencies in the vocal range.

Listen to some of your favorite records and listen to how the background tracks are mixed to get a better idea of wether or not your stuff is too loud.

what i basicly did was have him listen to a folder full of tracks from various producers. to use as a reference point..

[blayz2002]

From your discription, sounds kinda like it's 1 of 3 things,

1. Either the vocals aren't compressed enough..(so pulling them up in the mix makes it not sit) so your guy is mixing them low to compensate.

2. They need fequencies cut to get them to sit and once again you can then pull them up and not have them fight with the busier passages.

3. Your guy is approaching the mix wrong..and should pull everything but the drums down in the mix get the vocals right first, (eq, level, compression) and then add in the supporting sounds in order of importance in the mix...make the vocal the lead in the track...if he mixes House he may be leaning towards trying to mix it like a dance record..which tend to have the vocal sit lower in the mix.

[ghosttt]

Originally Posted by blayz2002

From your discription, sounds kinda like it's 1 of 3 things,

1. Either the vocals aren't compressed enough..(so pulling them up in the mix makes it not sit) so your guy is mixing them low to compensate.

2. They need fequencies cut to get them to sit and once again you can then pull them up and not have them fight with the busier passages.

3. Your guy is approaching the mix wrong..and should pull everything but the drums down in the mix get the vocals right first, (eq, level, compression) and then add in the supporting sounds in order of importance in the mix...make the vocal the lead in the track...if he mixes House he may be leaning towards trying to mix it like a dance record..which tend to have the vocal sit lower in the mix.

this is what i think is the exact issue..

dance records are very high end and low end,
with alot of middle cut out to reduce mud,
howver in hip hop that grit and mud lays in the middle and is much needed
actually its invited.

i notice when i have gotten his mixes, i sit and listen in my house, (i have a protools setup with krks) and they sound very level across the board but his vocals aren't slapping me in hte face which i want. i then proceed to run a 12 band on the overal mix and find that i always need to boost at 2k and 250 a few dbs to really get some of that energy back

from reading about mixing and mastering, am i wrong but a mix should be as full as possible before mastering, mastering shouldn't have to throw too much eq on it? right or worng?

[blayz2002]

Your mixes should be as close to a "finished" sound as poss..the Mastering engineer should only be looking to pull up the level and add that sheen/sparkle/warmth or whatever if the mix does not have it...Obviously in real life he does have to correct loads of poorly mixed stuff also. But I don't think you should be paying a mix engineer for him to pass you stuff that needs mastering to sound good. You should try and post a sample.

[ghosttt]

Originally Posted by blayz2002

Your mixes should be as close to a "finished" sound as poss..the Mastering engineer should only be looking to pull up the level and add that sheen/sparkle/warmth or whatever if the mix does not have it...Obviously in real life he does have to correct loads of poorly mixed stuff also. But I don't think you should be paying a mix engineer for him to pass you stuff that needs mastering to sound good. You should try and post a sample.

heres an example
vocal is too low, but besides that its not having the thump i want.

[blayz2002]

Originally Posted by ghosttt

heres an example
vocal is too low, but besides that its not having the thump i want.

Ok....first Rap does need more agressive comp (faster attack and maybe higher ratio) This should get it smoothed out. Then I would look at the top and the bottom of the frequencies, the top end can get rolled of a little as is fighting a bit with the hats. The bottom end may get smothed out by the comp ..if not maybe a roll of there too (just a little). Once done you should be able to mix it higher (in ya face!)

The track has enough low end thump, but not enough presence...you need to get more mid frequency out of the kik, or layer with another sample, or a copy of itself and then roll of the low freqeuncy and comp it until you can feel the punch( it also sounds a little flabby so a high Q cut may be in order). The snare I would probably also layer to thicken it ...or maybe just get it higher in the mix (get it cracking).

Other than that it's defo a fat track...good sample and the rapper's tone goes well..reminds me of The Game a little.

[ghosttt]

Originally Posted by blayz2002

Ok....first Rap does need more agressive comp (faster attack and maybe higher ratio) This should get it smoothed out. Then I would look at the top and the bottom of the frequencies, the top end can get rolled of a little as is fighting a bit with the hats. The bottom end may get smothed out by the comp ..if not maybe a roll of there too (just a little). Once done you should be able to mix it higher (in ya face!)

The track has enough low end thump, but not enough presence...you need to get more mid frequency out of the kik, or layer with another sample, or a copy of itself and then roll of the low freqeuncy and comp it until you can feel the punch( it also sounds a little flabby so a high Q cut may be in order). The snare I would probably also layer to thicken it ...or maybe just get it higher in the mix (get it cracking).

Other than that it's defo a fat track...good sample and the rapper's tone goes well..reminds me of The Game a little.

thanks bro.
i think this kid is incredible we have recorded 78 tracks with him already in less than a years time we are on our grind.
i agree the bass thumps but it needs more meat. i think i am going to layer the snare with another sample to get it to punch you in the face.

dealing with people and there egos has never been my forte im trying to get this dude to understand some things i may not be a proffesor on how to actually get the kick to be compressed enough, but my ears dont fool me i know what i hear.