#211
18th March 2011
Old 18th March 2011
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbobaggins View Post
I'm sorry how is this 100% LCR, you can clearly hear all the parts in both speakers. -pan your 2 buss.
It's LCR because I mixed it and all of my pan pots were hard left, hard right or dead center. There are some stereo synths that are panned hard L and hard R.

I think you are misunderstanding what LCR means. It doesn't mean that a particular sound comes ONLY from ONE of those three locations. For example, if you set up two room mics on a drumset and pan them L/R you are still going to get phantom imaging of a kick somewhere mostly in the middle (and and the sides for that matter) and you are still going to hear some ride in the right speaker even though it's on the left side of the drumset. LCR only has to do with restricting the pan pot to either L, C or R and NOT panning inbetween those places. Make sense?
#212
18th March 2011
Old 18th March 2011
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbobaggins View Post
The more traditional approach is to have the soundstage created within the two speakers. Everything tends to occupy its own unique place in the Left to Right plane. Everything also tends to occupy its own space in the front to back plane.

The modern approach relies on the soundstage being created AFTER it has left the speakers. There is a growing tendency for less emphasis on the front to back plane...(more "In your face") Also, rather than the traditional 'placement' of instruments within the stereo field, there seems to be a tendency towards 'big mono'. This all leads to the sound-stage being created more by the room/speakers and less by the mix itself. Which is kind of ironic really seeing as how most people listen on crappy speakers anyway. But It also kind of makes complete sense; what's the point in adding extra verb and panning things when the current replication device of choice [the mobile phone speaker] wouldn't be able to replicate it anyway!

I know I'm generalizing.....more so thinking out loud really.
Although I THINK I understand your point, it should be noted that mixing LCR is actually a throwback to traditional mixing. In the really old days panning was not done with a pot. It was done with switches and you only had three choices: left, center, right. So that's how old stereo recordings were originally done. Now we have panning on a pot (or a virtual pot in a DAW). So in essence, LCR mixing is more like the traditional approach, ironically, and what you are referring to as "traditional' is after the pan pot was created and people went all crazy with the thing LOL.
#213
18th March 2011
Old 18th March 2011
  #213
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post
The early Beatles stuff was mono, not LCR ("true" or otherwise).
I didn't say ALL early beatles stuff was LCR
#214
18th March 2011
Old 18th March 2011
  #214
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris carter View Post
Although I THINK I understand your point, it should be noted that mixing LCR is actually a throwback to traditional mixing.

Yeah, It was more so an extension of what I was saying above about Haas delays n stuff.
#215
18th March 2011
Old 18th March 2011
  #215
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris carter View Post
It's LCR because I mixed it and all of my pan pots were hard left, hard right or dead center. There are some stereo synths that are panned hard L and hard R.

LCR only has to do with restricting the pan pot to either L, C or R and NOT panning inbetween those places. Make sense?

Yes I understand. But if, as you say, the synths are the only stereo sources what is the point in taking all the other sources [which I presume are mono?] and then splitting them in two?

If you are putting delays or choruses or whatever on one side of them, of course this makes sense [see my earlier post], but if your only splitting them into dual mono, why bother? It may look like you're following the LCR rule to a tee and all your pans are Left right or Centre, but when you listen to it, it clearly sounds like ordinary mono panning on some of the sources..but you did it with faders and not the pan pots. Just saying
#216
19th March 2011
Old 19th March 2011
  #216
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbobaggins View Post
Yeah, It was more so an extension of what I was saying above about Haas delays n stuff.
Doing a standard haas delay is still LCR provided you pan the orignal hard one way and the delay hard the other way. Anything you hear in the middle is psychoacoustic.

Quote:
Yes I understand. But if, as you say, the synths are the only stereo sources what is the point in taking all the other sources [which I presume are mono?] and then splitting them in two?

If you are putting delays or choruses or whatever on one side of them, of course this makes sense [see my earlier post], but if your only splitting them into dual mono, why bother? It may look like you're following the LCR rule to a tee and all your pans are Left right or Centre, but when you listen to it, it clearly sounds like ordinary mono panning on some of the sources..but you did it with faders and not the pan pots. Just saying
I'm pretty sure I didn't split any mono sounds into dual mono, or any stereo sounds into dual mono, just because it's very rare that I do something like that. I only do that if I have some crazy processing that I can't do otherwise.

If it sounds like ordinary panning, then it sounds right. I really think you are overthinking LCR. It litterally just refers to where your pan pots are and NOTHING else. Just because you mix LCR doesn't mean you are going to hear all these distinct sounds ONLY occuring from one of three places. For example, Chris Lord-Alge mixes almost exclusively LCR, but if you listen to any of his mixes you aren't going to hear this distinct and obvious localization I think you are expecting. Again, to emphasize because I think you keep blowing by it: LCR mixing just refers to your pan pots and nothing more. So 100% left, 100% right or straight up the middle. No 37% this way and 75% that way stuff. If you set up a choir with a coincident mic pair and you pan hard l/r then that guy smack in the middle of the choir is STILL going to sound like he's in the middle on playback even though you are panned L/R. It's just about pan positions. That's all it is. Nothing more and nothing less. Don't overthink it. There's no mystery.
bgrotto
Thread Starter
#217
19th March 2011
Old 19th March 2011
  #217
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bgrotto's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbobaggins View Post
I didn't say ALL early beatles stuff was LCR
Yes, I know. My point is, none of it was. Any stereo mixes you've heard were basically considered novelty items prior to "Yellow Submarine" (which, if memory serves, was the first Beatles album to be given a proper stereo mix by those actually involved with the making of it).
#218
19th March 2011
Old 19th March 2011
  #218
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris carter View Post
Don't overthink it. There's no mystery.


Maybe I am overthinking it. But all I'm saying is If you throw all your mono sources LCR they will sound like they've been thrown there. It's the Haas delays which give the sounds their grounding.

In your mix the drums are coming slighty right of centre. There is only two ways that this can happen. 1-there is a volume inbalance between L&R in which case it's ordinary panning not LCR. 2-There is stereo infomation encoded in the signal either by a Haas delay or chorus or reverb, or a derivitive of the three (as in waves imager)

Your mix sounds class and it takes full effect of all these 'complications' whether you realize this or not

I think it's important for people to realize this-otherwise their LCR mixes will probably sound like trainwrecks on the outsides.
#219
21st March 2011
Old 21st March 2011
  #219
Gear nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris carter View Post
This song is 100% LCR except two spots where there is automated panning: at 2:18 there is a delay ("rewind") that slowly pans from right to center to help a transition; at 2:26 there is a vocal ("sexcapade") that pans from left to right in the background. Everything else is LCR. The artist's name is B Soulz and the song is called "Scorpio"... yes, he's a badass singer. As you can hear, you can still get a nice full left to right feel with LCR. It's not necessarily like you are only going to hear sound from three distinct points. But you do still get that wide sound with a lot of clarity (for an otherwise very dense arrangement).

http://www.millraceonline.com/music/...%20Scorpio.mp3
Love the mix! Trying to figure out how you mixed the pad, did you by any chance split the pad to dual mono and use the haas delay trick? (by nudging one of the tracks 25ms to the right) Or did you just leave it in the middle and curve out space for the lead vocal using eq?
#220
22nd March 2011
Old 22nd March 2011
  #220
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rickrock305's Avatar
 

I can't believe this thread has gone on this long. Is it really that complicated of an idea? Pan your stuff hard left or hard right or in the center, that's it.

I do 90% of stuff this way.
#221
22nd March 2011
Old 22nd March 2011
  #221
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ryst's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
I can't believe this thread has gone on this long. Is it really that complicated of an idea? Pan your stuff hard left or hard right or in the center, that's it.

I do 90% of stuff this way.
HAHA!
#222
23rd March 2011
Old 23rd March 2011
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris carter View Post
...Doing a standard haas delay is still LCR provided you pan the orignal hard one way and the delay hard the other way. Anything you hear in the middle is psychoacoustic...
how do you get control over this?
if i want something to sound like it's panned 50 to the right for example.
is there a delay to percentage chart or something?
all i could find is you'd have to keep it in the realm of 0.1 to 0.8 ms.

thanks.
#223
23rd March 2011
Old 23rd March 2011
  #223
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yosemitesam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by beat you down View Post
how do you get control over this?
if i want something to sound like it's panned 50 to the right for example.
is there a delay to percentage chart or something?
all i could find is you'd have to keep it in the realm of 0.1 to 0.8 ms.

thanks.
Is there a reason why you wouldn't just pan it 50 to the right?
#224
23rd March 2011
Old 23rd March 2011
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yosemitesam View Post
Is there a reason why you wouldn't just pan it 50 to the right?
yes, because i would like to try and learn and experiment with lcr mixing.
see if it works for me.
#225
24th March 2011
Old 24th March 2011
  #225
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Storyville's Avatar
 

phase based panning relies on the idea that in nature we don't hear a volume difference as much as we hear a timing difference from one ear to the other.

If you say sound moves 1 ft. per 1.1ms - and take the size of a human head, which is around a foot from ear to ear then the measurement makes sense. At the very most, something coming from directly from one side will hit one ear 1.1ms before it hits the other. If it's dead center, there's a 0ms difference. Stands to reason that if it's 50% to the left, the sound will get to your ear right ear 0.55ms later than your left.

LCR approach does not necessitate everything ending up either L, C, or R. That being said, I've never gotten into the LCR thing as much as others. I find in order to make contrast of image boundaries I need to use smaller bounds for somethings, bigger bounds for others. A common example is guitar spread vs. drum OH spread. In a rock mix, I generally prefer the guitars to be the outer bound of the stereo image - I like the guitars to surround the listener. In order to do that, I sometimes need to pull the drum OHs in a little bit.
#226
24th March 2011
Old 24th March 2011
  #226
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thanks.
will experiment with 0.1 to 1.1 ms delays for starters.
#227
24th March 2011
Old 24th March 2011
  #227
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LeoLeoLeo's Avatar
Human ear detects an audible delay at around 32 ms or above.
#228
24th March 2011
Old 24th March 2011
  #228
Lives for gear
This gets a little off-topic, but you need the delay to be more than 2ms. Below 2ms you get sum-localization, which is not what you want. You'll get kind of a smeary imaging with likely lots of severe phase issues in mono. In order for the precedence effect to come into action, the delayed signal has to be more than 2ms (generally speaking) and thus locolization occurs. The precedence effect and the haas effect kind of go hand in hand (in engineering, we just group this all into a technique called "haas delay" but they are really two related underlying principles). As Leo mentioned, generally speaking, you must be within around 30ms (variable based on many factores) in order for both sounds to be perceived as one.

So, bottom line, shoot for 2ms - 30ms. The longer the delay, the "wider" the apparent spread. The more transient info contained, the more distinct the delay will sound. So you have to play a balance. As well, you will get relative levels of phase cancellation in mono. So find a spot that's good and flip to mono and nudge it around until you get the least amount of cancellation (or best sounding cancellation).

That said, to stay on topic, if you are panning the source and delay L,C or R, then you are still LCR.

People are seriously overthinking LCR. Stop thinking and just do it. Don't think of it as handcuffs that force you to do find workarounds. Think of it as a way to liberate you from so many decisions LOL.
#229
24th March 2011
Old 24th March 2011
  #229
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris carter View Post
This gets a little off-topic, but you need the delay to be more than 2ms. Below 2ms you get sum-localization, which is not what you want. You'll get kind of a smeary imaging with likely lots of severe phase issues in mono. In order for the precedence effect to come into action, the delayed signal has to be more than 2ms (generally speaking) and thus locolization occurs. The precedence effect and the haas effect kind of go hand in hand (in engineering, we just group this all into a technique called "haas delay" but they are really two related underlying principles). As Leo mentioned, generally speaking, you must be within around 30ms (variable based on many factores) in order for both sounds to be perceived as one.

So, bottom line, shoot for 2ms - 30ms. The longer the delay, the "wider" the apparent spread. The more transient info contained, the more distinct the delay will sound. So you have to play a balance. As well, you will get relative levels of phase cancellation in mono. So find a spot that's good and flip to mono and nudge it around until you get the least amount of cancellation (or best sounding cancellation).

That said, to stay on topic, if you are panning the source and delay L,C or R, then you are still LCR.

People are seriously overthinking LCR. Stop thinking and just do it. Do think of it as handcuffs that force you to do find workarounds. Think of it as a way to liberate you from so many decisions LOL.
thanks,

this is what i found, am i missing something, confusing it with something else or does this say to stay within 0.1 and 0.8 ms ?



Moulton Laboratories :: Principles of Multitrack Mixing: The Phantom Image
#230
24th March 2011
Old 24th March 2011
  #230
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LeoLeoLeo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris carter View Post

So, bottom line, shoot for 2ms - 30ms. The longer the delay, the "wider" the apparent spread. The more transient info contained, the more distinct the delay will sound. So you have to play a balance. As well, you will get relative levels of phase cancellation in mono. So find a spot that's good and flip to mono and nudge it around until you get the least amount of cancellation (or best sounding cancellation).
Too short of delay just causes phase PROBLEMS. ANY haas effect will cause phase ISSUES that will need to be aware of/addressed. Too long of delay, and it becomes a quick flammy/slapback delay.

I've never done this to entire song. Figured I'd have too much haas in one song.

Really it's about having equal energy in both speakers, but since one side is heard barely first, it seems panned that direction.

Sure stereo is the goal, but the mono listen is king in this app.
#231
24th March 2011
Old 24th March 2011
  #231
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LeoLeoLeo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by beat you down View Post
thanks,

this is what i found, am i missing something, confusing it with something else or does this say to stay within 0.1 and 0.8 ms ?



Moulton Laboratories :: Principles of Multitrack Mixing: The Phantom Image
I disagree, most likely a sound delayed that short summed to mono will be basiclly a flange-ish sound. Comb filtering & phase un cohesion. You want the phase relationship/cohesion to not work in a degradative way.
#232
24th March 2011
Old 24th March 2011
  #232
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i'll stick with hard panned doubled parts for now, this is getting too scientific for me!
#233
24th March 2011
Old 24th March 2011
  #233
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LeoLeoLeo's Avatar
It is science, but also just pushing buttons & listening.

Try these ranges.

.01-2.0

2.1-8

9-20(start listening for the apparent delay in large transient material as chris said in latter part of this setting and all ones below)

21-32

32+ (anything in this range will be registered in the brain as a delay not localization shift)

Listen in stereo & mono.

Use a low endy low register sound

Use a hi endy hi register sound

Do to a 2track beat. (full spectrum)
#234
24th March 2011
Old 24th March 2011
  #234
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoLeoLeo View Post
It is science, but also just pushing buttons & listening.

Try these ranges.

.01-2.0

2.1-8

9-20(start listening for the apparent delay in large transient material as chris said in latter part of this setting and the ones below)

21-32

32+

Listen in stereo & stereo summed.

Use a low endy low register sound

Use a hi endy hi register sound

Do to a 2track beat. (full spectrum)
thanks.
how did you come up with these particular ranges?
to what are they related?
#235
24th March 2011
Old 24th March 2011
  #235
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LeoLeoLeo's Avatar
Principles of auditory perception.
#236
24th March 2011
Old 24th March 2011
  #236
Lives for gear
The "Haas effect" and "precedence effect" are very important psycoacoustic principles that every mixer should be familiar with. I have yet to meet a very successful mixer that didn't understand them. they might not have known them by their scientific names, but they did know them.

Precedence effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Haas effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

10ms is a good starting point for the haas delay trick. Then adjust up (or down) from there until you find a good point. You must check in mono constantly or you can get a nasty suprise on the radio LOL.
#237
24th March 2011
Old 24th March 2011
  #237
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LeoLeoLeo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris carter View Post
You must check in mono constantly or you can get a nasty suprise on the radio LOL.
Or on that mono PA system in the club.


***going back and reading prevoius posts(this thread, hell, a few ones), I do say some wrong termed things...haha. My thoughts get lost in translation between the cigars & fast iPhone typing...
#238
24th March 2011
Old 24th March 2011
  #238
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Storyville's Avatar
 

Just FYI-

Phase based localization, level based localization, and Haas Delay "Phantom Stereo" effect are all very different things.

The "Haas" zone is the area of time in which temporal function intersect phase effects. The length of milliseconds in which this works is ENTIRELY dependent on the source material, but is generally 2-20ms. Precendence is a psychological effect - where even without hearing a pan separation, if the Haas delay is split stereo, the ear will gravitate toward whatever is heard first.

Phase based localization I described above.

Level based localization is basic panning.

ALL of these have issues when summed mono. Stereo has issues when summed mono. Period. If it didn't .... well ... it would be mono.

General rule of thumb - things in background that the ear is not focusing on, great for manipulating to widen the stereo image. Things that are up front - leave em in the center and don't screw with their time based functions.
#239
9th May 2012
Old 9th May 2012
  #239
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joe_04_04's Avatar
What about drum kits with 4 or more toms...how would you pan that LCR and not sound goofy?


Reminds me of a Mitch Hedberg quote:

"I like Kit-Kat, unless I'm with four or more people."
#240
9th May 2012
Old 9th May 2012
  #240
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illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_04_04 View Post
What about drum kits with 4 or more toms...how would you pan that LCR and not sound goofy?


Reminds me of a Mitch Hedberg quote:

"I like Kit-Kat, unless I'm with four or more people."
The rack toms are normally in the middle.

Stand in front of the drum kit dead center and they land about center.

I usually keep them in the middle and goofy pan the extremes.

Tom mics are normally accent mics for me and not the main body of the sound. Just like the snare. You normally hear toms (and snare) from a distance and so you need to take that into account when you balance the levels.

It may take 3 microphones to create a distinct snare sound, like top snare and a stereo pair of room mics. If you take away the rooms, then the attack of the drum is there but not the complete report so you get a very anemic result. Solo the rooms and you get a full picture but don't get the body. So you have to find a balance.

In regards to toms even when you are panning them only 2 degrees to the left, remember you determine the width of the kit image with the overheads and the rooms (if they are in stereo) by how you place them and by what technique you use. The spot mics for me are there to accentuate and focus.

If you pan toms LCR (you have to know where to put what) and then you still have a stereo overhead and a stereo room, the brain fills in the rest in my experience.

Peace
Illumination
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