here's my secret for super loud and transparent mixes

[Trell Blaze]

I like how, when someone posts a tip or trick, there's always people who can tell us how it won't work without ever trying the trick themselves.

I wanna hear the beats...put em back up!!

[Tha Govna]

I would also. I thought I'd be getting a healthy dose of VIRUS when I clicked the first link and it sent me to some German page...

Anyway, I'm going to test this out soon and report back myself. Sounds interesting.

[glissando]

It is off topic but it's so much more fun waiting for CL's next big "tip"

[Joemamma]

Originally Posted by The Dutch Master

Well yeah...but where would you want it done? At his house or the studio? It's the whole package. If what you describe is true in your case, I'd consider looking for another mastering studio. I know what you're trying to say though, but that engineer should have no business in that great big mastering studio then
and the "home" guy should.

It happens more often than you would think, with mixing and mastering engineers that should be replaced, but get to keep the job for some reason...

When I mix a song I actually mix and master the song in the same session. My mix is actually a master that is ready to be put out. However, I bounce the mix with and without my mastering chain, so there is the possibility of getting someone else to master it. Some of the people I mix for use my mixes as the masters though.
IMO mastering is most important when dealing with an entire album that needs a cohesive sound. For a single I don't see why you can't mix and master it in the same session, if you know what you are doing.

[superjc]

I have thought about doing variations on this theme, but have been too lazy to try it... hmmmm

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by proop

the main problem with mixing down a track usually is, that even the best limiter makes your sound muddy at some point, and using no limiter, your basses can distort very easily.

so what i do is put my limiter on a new bus and route all tracks except the snare and some high content only instruments to that bus.

i suggest the stillwell eventhorizon-plus or the oxford limiter for this bus.

theres no limiter on the master channel. the snare might technically clip but most of the track will sound really loud and smooth. you wont hear any clipping.

the reason i don't route the snare to the limiter is, that the snare suffers the most from limiting. other high content only instruments like cymbals or synths don't clip notably so you can remain their dynamics by not limiting them either.

if you're going to try this technique, feel free to report about your results.

One other thing though - if you're going to clip the snare at the print stage, you run the risk of intersample peaks causing some very nasty distortion on inferior CD players/MP3 codecs.

Erm...I guess if you clip the converters to get the sound, then reprint it in via a DA/AD loop, that'd "fix" the sound without running this risk. But you're getting into "proper" mastering there.

As for the whole Chris Lago situ, I'd cut the guy a break - he's only doing what everyone talks about, the "grind" isn't he? And as he says, he's not pimping his services out explicitly.

I personally don't agree with the jack-of-all-trades approach (and if it was me, I'd definitely keep the modelling aspect out of it, especially as an avatar!), but it's whatever works for you.

[Lipps]

OP

post the tracks up again. I want to hear'em I'll try this out to.

I'll PM you

Originally Posted by chrislago

I guess any answer I say, I'll have someone tell me that I'm wrong again.........

I dunno who's more ill informed. People like you who try to flame me for trying to help or people like me, who write honest answers to honest questions. What, did you want me to tell him to get me to master his stuff?........

So in conclusion, if you're only in this thread to criticize me and not help the OP.....

Did the OP actually ASK a question?

The guy said this is what I do. If you try it tell me how it worked for you.

[lerone]

Originally Posted by Igotsoul4u

proop. I like the idea. Makes sense to me.

I'd read up a bit on digital audio.

[MikeyMike]

Originally Posted by dualflip

I like it when ppl think outside the box, instead of using the same typical "mix magazine" replies like "hire a good mastering engineer", "the importance is in the room", "always cut, never boost". Not saying those things are not true but come on ppl its just boring to hear that over and over again, sometimes from ppl that dont even have a clue of what they are saying.

So what, it's boring to hear the truth? LOL. What moron would try to master an album in a bedroom studio with no proper training or real mastering equipment. Joemamma agreed with this statement too so......... to the both of you.

[Mr.Amokk]

OP: please put the links back up.

[glissando]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

One other thing though - if you're going to clip the snare at the print stage, you run the risk of intersample peaks causing some very nasty distortion on inferior CD players/MP3 codecs.

Erm...I guess if you clip the converters to get the sound, then reprint it in via a DA/AD loop, that'd "fix" the sound without running this risk. But you're getting into "proper" mastering there.

As for the whole Chris Lago situ, I'd cut the guy a break - he's only doing what everyone talks about, the "grind" isn't he? And as he says, he's not pimping his services out explicitly.

I personally don't agree with the jack-of-all-trades approach (and if it was me, I'd definitely keep the modelling aspect out of it, especially as an avatar!), but it's whatever works for you.

since when are you into cutting guys breaks?

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by glissando

since when are you into cutting guys breaks?

Why don't you relax... He has been sufficiently dope slapped. Time to move on to other things, or risk banning.

[bakerman]

Hey proop, thanks for clarifying the timing stuff - its certainly interesting to listen to. I also liked the mastering results of yours but like others top end was a touch over the top for me. I wonder how this technique would work with live drummers who don't hit as consistently on the snare.

[glissando]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Why don't you relax... He has been sufficiently dope slapped. Time to move on to other things, or risk banning.

Tony. I've stuck to the thread and I've responded to peoples comments appropriately. If they put it out there...I'm gonna comment on it....banning? I said the OP had good ideas and that more folks should try limiters on busses when mixing. You might wanna check your info before flexing big guy.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by glissando

Tony. I've stuck to the thread and I've responded to peoples comments appropriately. If they put it out there...I'm gonna comment on it....

You were egging on the continued bashing of another forum member.

My comment is meant to put a stop to it. If I had found this thread an hour earlier, maybe someone else would have gotten the same response.... Understood?

[glissando]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

.... Understood?

fuuck

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by glissando

fuuck

Take a 7 day timeout (suspension).... and please come back without the ego and attitude.

Hopefully, everyone can put the ego's away and discuss this potential technique constructively, and stop any bashing.

[proop]

i just put together a little demonstration of the technique quick. so don't expect a mind-boggling mix.

i've just added some quantized drums to an existing beat for this.

the limiter (oxford) is on a bus on the first one. i've ran kicks, bassline and epiano through the bus. there's nothing at all on the master channel.

http://proop.pr.funpic.de/limiter_on_bus.mp3

on the second one, i've moved the limiter from the bus to the master. same settings.

http://proop.pr.funpic.de/limiter_on_master.mp3

to me, the snare sounds flattened off on the second one, while the other instruments sound less full, certainly because the limiter has to deal with more frequencies.

@psycho_monkey, i think you can safely clip your audio with plugins like GClip (GVST - GClip), at least i couldn't detect any intersample peaks.

here are the settings of the limiter for this example, in case you want to try it yourself:



i added that 12.6 ms of release to both versions because otherwise the bass was distorting.

ps: i'm sorry this thread ended up in such a disaster.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by proop

i'm sorry this thread ended up in such a disaster.

It's not your fault... This forum has a problem with ego's and attitudes as you have discovered. Controlling them all is a work in progress.... but, we are working on it.

[Trell Blaze]

Originally Posted by proop

i just put together a little demonstration of the technique quick. so don't expect a mind-boggling mix.

i've just added some quantized drums to an existing beat for this.

the limiter (oxford) is on a bus on the first one. i've ran kicks, bassline and epiano through the bus. there's nothing at all on the master channel.

http://proop.pr.funpic.de/limiter_on_bus.mp3

on the second one, i've moved the limiter from the bus to the master. same settings.

http://proop.pr.funpic.de/limiter_on_master.mp3

to me, the snare sounds flattened off on the second one, while the other instruments sound less full, certainly because the limiter has to deal with more frequencies.

@psycho_monkey, i think you can safely clip your audio with plugins like GClip (GVST - GClip), at least i couldn't detect any intersample peaks.

here are the settings of the limiter for this example, in case you want to try it yourself:



i added that 12.6 ms of release to both versions because otherwise the bass was distorting.

ps: i'm sorry this thread ended up in such a disaster.

I hear a pretty big difference between the two. There's also a lot more pumping from the 2nd one...especially when all the instruments hit at once. Interesting...though I don't do a lot of master bus limiting, I'll have to check this out next time I feel the need to do so. I wonder if the results or more or less drastic if u use...say an L2?

[proop]

the pumping was introduced by adding the release. without the release time, the sound was less pumpy, but significantly more distorted.

a little pumping on the bus limiter actually sounds good though, as long as you directly send some other elements (the chimes, strings, hi-hats, snares, harps etc. in this case) to the master channel.

i haven't tried the L2 for this technique, but i think the results should be pretty similar since the L2 has a slight pumpy character at higher volumes too (as far as i remember).

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

You were egging on the continued bashing of another forum member.

My comment is meant to put a stop to it. If I had found this thread an hour earlier, maybe someone else would have gotten the same response.... Understood?

Sorry for that Tony but you know, sometimes someone deserves it, im sure you know what i mean, but you are right lets play nice!

[Trell Blaze]

Originally Posted by proop

the pumping was introduced by adding the release. without the release time, the sound was less pumpy, but significantly more distorted.

a little pumping on the bus limiter actually sounds good though, as long as you directly send some other elements (the chimes, strings, hi-hats, snares, harps etc. in this case) to the master channel.

i haven't tried the L2 for this technique, but i think the results should be pretty similar since the L2 has a slight pumpy character at higher volumes too (as far as i remember).

Well I didn't say which sounded better. Personally I like a little pumping on the overall mix myself but not too much. I'd still have to say that the 1st one sounded a lot smoother to my ears. That doesn't mean that you want smooth....u may prefer the rougher cut. It's definately nice to be able to switch between the two that easily.

The L2 can get rather nasty with low frequencies...especially if u leave te auto release on. Still...it would be interesting to know how it works in your experiment.

[proop]

here is the the example with L2:

http://proop.funpic.de/L2_on_bus.mp3

http://proop.funpic.de/L2_on_master.mp3

settings:

[Trell Blaze]

Originally Posted by proop

here is the the example with L2:

http://proop.funpic.de/L2_on_bus.mp3

http://proop.funpic.de/L2_on_master.mp3

settings:

Strange...to my ears the L2 was SLIGHTLY (very slighly) smoother and more "forgiving" (?) to both the kick and snare than the Sonnox. I would've thought it would be the opposite. Honestly, I didn't really hear a difference between the two L2 samples.

Ok I went back and listened again...there is a difference between the two but it's it's barely noticable to my ears. Of course my listening environment is not the greatest in the world so...

But yea, of all 4 examples, the Sonnox on Master clip is by far the most different.

[proop]

here's the event horizon plus example:

http://proop.funpic.de/eventhorizon_on_bus.mp3

http://proop.funpic.de/eventhorizon_on_master.mp3

[Chris Lago]

Nice samples, I like them a lot!

I hope I didn't ruin another thread again

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by glissando

since when are you into cutting guys breaks?

I don't suffer fools gladly...but I also don't pile in when a point has already been made (I hope).

[orangeoctane]

Originally Posted by proop

the pumping was introduced by adding the release. without the release time, the sound was less pumpy, but significantly more distorted.

a little pumping on the bus limiter actually sounds good though, as long as you directly send some other elements (the chimes, strings, hi-hats, snares, harps etc. in this case) to the master channel.

i haven't tried the L2 for this technique, but i think the results should be pretty similar since the L2 has a slight pumpy character at higher volumes too (as far as i remember).

What if you were to split up the duties and add a limiter on the master buss so that the snare was being pushed into the mix just a little while also limiting the group buss on top of the 1st limiter that's already limiting the grouped tracks (but maybe backing off a few dB of reduction to compensate for what the master limiter is going to add)? This seems like it might make the track a little more transparent since the group limiter wouldn't have to work as hard and then you could clip that snare with the master limiter if you wanted without touching the rest of the track.

Sorry for the complicated explanation...

[Chris Lago]

Congrats to Bgrotto for mentioning LCR Techniques. I just mixed a Rap song for a client using this technique, and the mix is bigger, wider, hell it makes 50 cent's I get money song look narrow and small. The client loved the result, and I will be mixing more songs from him because of that.