Chorus vocal in Candy Shop by 50 Cent

[Eterny99]

Hello

I have been lurking around on gearslutz for past 2 years and finally gathered up some courage to make my first thread / post, I have truely learned so much and this forum has definitely helped in everyway to improve myself!!!

anyways, I've always been fascinated with production of G-Unit stuff (especially the vocal), and although lots of you will agree with me that 50cent is not the greatest rapper of all time, his vocal sound on the chorus of Candy Shop just jumps out of the speakers and punches you in the face! (literally that's the feeling I got when I first heard the song while back)

My guess is that, they strapped on all the high-end gears with top engineers working around the clock to achieve such presence (as well as killer stereo image)... but I would like to ask if any of you would have any specific idea how this was achieved?

[tomdarude]

a $20.000,- vocal chain + a real pro-engineer who knows all the tricks to bring out your special voice in a certain way...

I think most of it lies in the vocal-comping/arranging !

maybe C800G or VM1 +1084+ear660+stc8+lavry (or something similar) could
help a bit...



cheers tom

[Eterny99]

Thanks for your reply Tom!!!, I would've imagined all the pristine pre's and compressors for sure... so more of tube path than discrete I'd take it??

I'd also imagine heavy EQ tweaks on it as well? to me, it sounds almost "un-natural" and very "un-real".. sounds almost as if they put "too much" EQ tweaks on it.. but it really pops out

I'm considering to get a serious mono pre-amp just for "that" kinda sound... and I understand no single pre can compensate for all that... but for a starter, would avalon (tube) be more appropriate? then... let's say neve 1073 / GRNV (discrete)?

[TonyBelmont]

Nothing fancy... just Olivia singing the harmony a bunch of times. 4 for the high harmony part, 4 for the low harmony part, 4 whisper layers.... Typical R&B stacking. Probably a good mic and pre. When you're layering that much you really need a good pre. I think they used the same techniques on 50... also add in a little vocalign, some compression and some eq and you're there.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Eterny99

I'm considering to get a serious mono pre-amp just for "that" kinda sound... and I understand no single pre can compensate for all that... but for a starter, would avalon (tube) be more appropriate? then... let's say neve 1073 / GRNV (discrete)?

Something like a 1073 would be great. I doubt a 737 would be better (for anything, ever...). I actually think an Avalon M5 would be a great choice for this kind of thing.

[XHipHop]

The times i used a Martech pre it sounded HUGE.

If I had the money and was going for that hi-fi sound, it'd be my first choice.

[Eterny99]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Nothing fancy... just Olivia singing the harmony a bunch of times. 4 for the high harmony part, 4 for the low harmony part, 4 whisper layers.... Typical R&B stacking. Probably a good mic and pre. When you're layering that much you really need a good pre. I think they used the same techniques on 50... also add in a little vocalign, some compression and some eq and you're there.

Thank you for your reply Tony! heavy loads of layering sounds like it!

If I may also add, and be more specific, in the very beginning of the song when 50 cent opens the song with "yeah, uh huh".. that part just tored me apart! when I first heard the song, I had to stop right there and just listen to 50 going "yeah" several dozen times! I've never heard a vocal sound that way!

funny thing was that when I heard it in mono, it didn't seem to be "all that"... I'm guessing it must be hard panned crazy stereo thingy (with dozens of layers as you've mentioned)... or maybe I have my monitors too far apart? =P

if I were to convince my clients to do that many layering.... jeeez...

I think I'm gonna ditch the whole Avalon 737, and go with ME1NV, or even some focusrites.... thanks for your input!!!

[Eterny99]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

The times i used a Martech pre it sounded HUGE.

If I had the money and was going for that hi-fi sound, it'd be my first choice.

Thanks for your input XHipHop! are you refering to Martech MSS-10 ?? the price range is slightly ( just slightly ) over my budget... would this be considered as an ultimate vocal pre-amp? (rap / r&b vocal) ? also can digital synths (i.e. Korg Triton, Yamaha Motif, Roland Varios) also benefit?? sorry if I'm throwing too many questions... I've been dying to throw in so many Qs in past 2 years, and am glad I've taken the first step on this forum

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Eterny99

Thank you for your reply Tony! heavy loads of layering sounds like it!

If I may also add, and be more specific, in the very beginning of the song when 50 cent opens the song with "yeah, uh huh".. that part just tored me apart! when I first heard the song, I had to stop right there and just listen to 50 going "yeah" several dozen times! I've never heard a vocal sound that way!

funny thing was that when I heard it in mono, it didn't seem to be "all that"... I'm guessing it must be hard panned crazy stereo thingy (with dozens of layers as you've mentioned)... or maybe I have my monitors too far apart? =P

if I were to convince my clients to do that many layering.... jeeez...

I think I'm gonna ditch the whole Avalon 737, and go with ME1NV, or even some focusrites.... thanks for your input!!!

Glad to help.... Also, check out the API 512 pre or maybe the 7600 channel strip before buying the GR or Focusrites..... I think that might be what you are really looking for.

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by Eterny99

Thanks for your input XHipHop! are you refering to Martech MSS-10 ?? the price range is slightly ( just slightly ) over my budget... would this be considered as an ultimate vocal pre-amp? (rap / r&b vocal) ? also can digital synths (i.e. Korg Triton, Yamaha Motif, Roland Varios) also benefit?? sorry if I'm throwing too many questions... I've been dying to throw in so many Qs in past 2 years, and am glad I've taken the first step on this forum

For me, the Martech is the ultimate pre for a "pop" sound. It's big and smooth...I also want to try the DW Fearn Pre and hear how that sounds.

Tony also recommended an api which would definitely be worth checking out even though I haven't tried it on background vocals before.

ADK has an API-type pre out now has different opamps you can plugin and get different sounds. I'm hoping to get a 2 channel unit next month and I'm hoping I can find different combinations for lead vocals/backgrounds/etc. It sounds like fun.



Gear aside, the most improtant thing is having an artist that trusts/shares your vision and will work for it. Layering like that is a pain in the butt sometimes. Autotune, pitch shifting, getting the timing right (or using vocalign) are all part of the process.

[Stoneface]

Originally Posted by Eterny99

I've been dying to throw in so many Qs in past 2 years, and am glad I've taken the first step on this forum

Welcome...it feels good to come out of the shadows and into the light, doesn't it? Hope you stick around for awhile. Good luck!

[Fajita]

C800g and Martech is a favorite in the latin pop market as well...

easy to get the up front vocal, but easy doesn't come cheap.

[XHipHop]

If you guys were doing some major stacking like this, how would you compress them? Bus them to one stereo compressor? Use a bunch of plugins and compress them individually?

[rickrock305]

well since most of the time i mix in the box, a lot of times i'll compress individually a little and then bus them as well and compress again after some group EQ and whatnot

[Eterny99]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

Layering like that is a pain in the butt sometimes. Autotune, pitch shifting, getting the timing right (or using vocalign) are all part of the process.

I'm glad you brought that up XHipHop, for me when vocal session becomes long and draggy, I just focus on the "performance" side first... and then I worry about timing issue (god bless digital world)

now that I think of it.. I don't think there was any rap session where I didn't have to chop up a verse and slide into timing and most of the rappers I work with they come expecting that right off the bat... kinda sux, but hey, as long as the outcome sounds great, you gives a damn right?

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

If you guys were doing some major stacking like this, how would you compress them? Bus them to one stereo compressor? Use a bunch of plugins and compress them individually?

Buss them to a Fairchild 670 (that was the only thing it ever sounded good on to me). If you don't have one of those then the closest smooth stereo compressor...

[Eterny99]

Originally Posted by Stoneface

Welcome...it feels good to come out of the shadows and into the light, doesn't it? Hope you stick around for awhile. Good luck!

Thank Stoneface! I really am glad! there were so many times I just wanted to hit "register" and jump into the puddle of slutz (? hmm.. odd metaphor), but in most cases, was very intimidated by tremendous knowledge that are being put out by everyone .. glad to be the part of it! cheers!

[Eterny99]

Originally Posted by Fajita

C800g and Martech is a favorite in the latin pop market as well...

easy to get the up front vocal, but easy doesn't come cheap.

I've learned that C800g is the shiz-nit... but I've also found some very negative postings about it as well... maintenance and servicing on it particularly.. and the durability of the unit (relative to other high end mics).. but then I can be wrong... as well as the source which I got that info from

[jonnyclueless]

This is a great thread in that good ideas are going back and forth. But what worries me is someone thinking that candy shop is something to sonically strive for.

The c800g is a great mic, but it's very pristine. If you want something with a little more soul, I would go for a U47 or something along those lines. EVery singer is different, so pretty much any mic suggestion is just a guess.

[hitsville]

Originally Posted by Eterny99

If I may also add, and be more specific, in the very beginning of the song when 50 cent opens the song with "yeah, uh huh".. that part just tored me apart! when I first heard the song, I had to stop right there and just listen to 50 going "yeah" several dozen times! I've never heard a vocal sound that way!

funny thing was that when I heard it in mono, it didn't seem to be "all that"... I'm guessing it must be hard panned crazy stereo thingy (with dozens of layers as you've mentioned)... or maybe I have my monitors too far apart? =P

well, not sure if you noticed, but check it, it sounds quite simple to me. I'm pretty sure there's 2 differents tracks of vocals in the beginning (when he says "yeaah"), one panned hard left, and one panned hard right. So he recorded twice the exact same thing and it gives that stereo effect. I think it's the same deal on the hook. You can also get this effect with one mono track, using a delay : let's say you pan your track hard left, and then put a 6-12 ms delay hard right, and voilà, you got your stereo effect.

[Eterny99]

Originally Posted by hitsville

well, not sure if you noticed, but check it, it sounds quite simple to me. I'm pretty sure there's 2 differents tracks of vocals in the beginning (when he says "yeaah"), one panned hard left, and one panned hard right. So he recorded twice the exact same thing and it gives that stereo effect. I think it's the same deal on the hook. You can also get this effect with one mono track, using a delay : let's say you pan your track hard left, and then put a 6-12 ms delay hard right, and voilà, you got your stereo effect.

Thanks for your input hitsville! sorry if I wasn't clear on this topic, I was referring to the extreme presence on the vocal sound in the song specifically... and yes, that's what I'm striving for =)

the stereo image with delay, I used to use the technique alot, but I couldn't help but notice fair amount of phasing problems when heard in mono (especially in clubs etc...) I just use variety of different takes and hard pan them left / right... (with some delay if necessary) but just can't get that presence! regarding the mic choice, something more along the "pristine" path seems to be the right idea for me...

it seems the traditional "phat" and "gritty" hiphop sounds are commercially shifting towards more of brighter sound to me anyways

[blayz2002]

[quote=Eterny99]Thanks for your input hitsville! sorry if I wasn't clear on this topic, I was referring to the extreme presence on the vocal sound in the song specifically... and yes, that's what I'm striving for =)

I have been listening to the 50 album "The Massacre" for a while now (for convenience and mix comparision) I have my CD player going into a Berringer ADA800 then light piped into a EMU1820m and monitoring on some Blue Sky Media Desks. I have to say also the presence and imaging on the whole alobum is crazy, there seems to be a lot more high freq's on the vox's than most rap albums and also they are using some lovely reverbs on the hooks....Take a listen to 'Gunz Come Out' specifically for a good sample..it's more extreme than 'Candy Shop'. ....type of reverbs do you guys think they may be using?

This album has forced me to step up my Stereo Game.....by the way brilliant forum ..defo one of the best!

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by blayz2002

Take a listen to 'Gunz Come Out' specifically for a good sample..it's more extreme than 'Candy Shop'. ....type of reverbs do you guys think they may be using?

Lexicon 480L???

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

If you guys were doing some major stacking like this, how would you compress them? Bus them to one stereo compressor? Use a bunch of plugins and compress them individually?

My suggestion would be don't compress the stacks but mix them in groups.

Compression on backgrounds tends to eat the size away.

The EQ you choose is important as well as the effects.

And i would suggest to triple stack not just double.

[tomdarude]

Originally Posted by Eterny99

was referring to the extreme presence on the vocal sound in the song specifically... and yes, that's what I'm striving for =)

regarding the mic choice, something more along the "pristine" path seems to be the right idea for me...

it seems the traditional "phat" and "gritty" hiphop sounds are commercially shifting towards more of brighter sound to me anyways

okay you def. wanna go that route ??
hmmm... then I´d de. second the martech mss-10 !!!
it´s pristine, clear, and stacks VERY well....imho. the best pre in the "clean" domain

as for good clean mics, check the Brauner VM-1 .......great high-end mic !!!
(and I guess less $$ than the sony....I maybe wrong, dunno...)

cheers, tom

[Stoneface]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

My suggestion would be don't compress the stacks but mix them in groups.

Compression on backgrounds tends to eat the size away.

The EQ you choose is important as well as the effects.

And i would suggest to triple stack not just double.

[Billster]

[quote=blayz2002]

Originally Posted by Eterny99

...and also they are using some lovely reverbs on the hooks....Take a listen to 'Gunz Come Out' specifically for a good sample..it's more extreme than 'Candy Shop'. ....type of reverbs do you guys think they may be using?

I only have my Panasonic shitphones here to listen, anyway, to me it sounds like reverberated delays. If you feed the delay to a nice ambience (or maybe short plate) program it gets nicely spread out like that. I use PCM91 for this, but I believe the 480L serves you well in that regard, too

On "guns come out" the delay time is just longer than on candy shop, thus it sounds "more extreme".

Cheers,
Bill

[blayz2002]

[quote=Billster]

Originally Posted by blayz2002

I only have my Panasonic shitphones here to listen, anyway, to me it sounds like reverberated delays. If you feed the delay to a nice ambience (or maybe short plate) program it gets nicely spread out like that. I use PCM91 for this, but I believe the 480L serves you well in that regard, too

On "guns come out" the delay time is just longer than on candy shop, thus it sounds "more extreme".

Cheers,
Bill

Cool...there seems to be some school that say don't use reverb on Rap vox's . I have been, but ain't been that happy so far with the results, might try some delay also mixed in.