bass programming ie. in da club example

[jamie10]

hi
Ive heard this technique for the bass in a few records.
Its kinda hard to explain.
Its not just straight bass notes playing on top of the kick.

The bass note falls at the same time as the kick, but kinda prolongs after the kick has been hit... but to the lay person its sounds like one sound....it kinda is one sound, but its a bass drum and bass note kinda blended into one....

Its very precise programming, check out in da club, in the intro, when theres no riff or chords playing, and the kick is playing unlayered, you hear this kick/bass hybrid.....you know its there because the previous naked kick sounds diff....this effect im talking about is diff to the normal way of playing bass notes over the kick.... as in most of in da club....

am i making sense?

im familiar with layering a sine wave with a kick....
maybe it would be jsut this, with tuning and filter envelope....

the effect im talking about..... is when ive heard it....not usually for harmonic or melodious effect...its kinda just a rhythmic cool bass sound effect, which gives the drums programming so much more life.....

what things are at play here?
- maybe some kind of gate/sidechaing

i basicallly dont know how the effect is achived...but its probaly achieved a number of ways.....

im sure ive heard netptunes tracks use this too.....

thanks for any input.....

[FredYeah]

make sure bassnotes stop when the snare hits.

[jamie10]

Originally Posted by FredYeah

make sure bassnotes stop when the snare hits.

yes im aware of that aspect.... but i dont think thats the whole story.
you mean the decay/release setting or the note length...? i guess both...

[MYAMS]

do you mean an 808 perhaps?

[jamie10]

Originally Posted by MYAMS

do you mean an 808 perhaps?

it used to be 808 years ago i remember...yeah ive heard that on some new records too.
But i dont know.....

are you saying an 808 would be layered with the original kick?
or would 808 be on its own?

808 is purely a boomy kick drum right?

no, i think im talking about an actual bass note sound working with the kick.....

[beat you down]

could be anything subby, a short 808 or something, not on all kicks just on the ones which you'd like to accentuate.

it's not new.

[jamie10]

Originally Posted by beat you down

could be anything subby, a short 808 or something, not on all kicks just on the ones which you'd like to accentuate.

it's not new.

so its a layering of 808 or similar subby drum along with the normal kick?
you would have to tune the 808 to fit your original kick, right?

but im sure what im thinking about is related to pitch of bass note...
808 is just a think boom, not too pitchy is it?

slave4 u britney.... similar bass note there... more obvious and pronouced though...
in da club...almost i think changes pitch...

[beat you down]

Originally Posted by jamie10

so its a layering of 808 or similar subby drum along with the normal kick?
you would have to tune the 808 to fit your original kick, right?

but im sure what im thinking about is related to pitch of bass note...
808 is just a think boom, not too pitchy is it?

slave4 u britney.... similar bass note there... more obvious and pronouced though...
in da club...almost i think changes pitch...

i usually tune it to the root of the song.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/rap-h...808-kicks.html

[Methlab]

In Da CLub..I am pretty sure that is a live bass guitar. It is awesome because what is happening is the bassline harmonizes and does counterpoint to the main string riff. I have always loved that bassline because it changes how you interpret the chords of that beat. It is an ideal example of simplistic complexity.

I need to hear it again, but I always thought it was a live bass played in sync to the hit of an 808 kick. You would want to simply tune the 808 to the key of the song. The 808 does not change pitches with the bass.

[jamie10]

Originally Posted by Methlab

In Da CLub..I am pretty sure that is a live bass guitar. It is awesome because what is happening is the bassline harmonizes and does counterpoint to the main string riff. I have always loved that bassline because it changes how you interpret the chords of that beat. It is an ideal example of simplistic complexity.

I need to hear it again, but I always thought it was a live bass played in sync to the hit of an 808 kick. You would want to simply tune the 808 to the key of the song. The 808 does not change pitches with the bass.

yeah i hear you. lol this beat is crazy!
but its not just one bass line/sound in the song.

dude listen to it again.
im not talking about the main bass.

hell, i cant even hear much of what i posted on my first message on my "studio monitors"....you need sub bass deep heavy speakers or hi fi speakers.

doesnt sound like a bass guitar to me, but i aint no expert.

the kicks in this song are def NOT 808, whether an 808 is layered in that moment im talking bout i dont know.... doesnt sound like it though....

maybe its like the kick is sidechaning a bass synth...short enveloped




another point: im sure ive heard 808 style drums that are tuned diff as part of the main beat. .... i think TI Big S**t Poppin by mannie fresh.... ive never figured out whats happening there, but me thinks its an 808 kick... or sine wave maybe.... but i think hes tunning the kick in each bar differently to match the harmony/bass line....

[RyanC]

Sounds like a real bass on In Da Club, I'm hearing a little bend on the last E-C#. I think it's just played so that the notes stop at the right places.

I don't think the pitch is changing on the kicks in the TI big shit, but definitly whatever you like has that.

But what you are talking about is either one of two things. The long 808/909 kick with the pitch changing with the chords. Or the other trick is to use the kick to sidechain gate a bass and then just hold the notes down. The TI track is really long, so it's probably a short 808 sound with a SC gated bass.

[Phenex]

I don't know if this helps you a lot or not, but in a genre called Hardstyle, they do this all the time.
Basically what it is, is synthesizing a kick in a synth, by using a sine osc with a pitch envelope.
The frequency then drops from really high to really low in very few ms and stops dropping once it hits the desired note and goes on for as long as you hold in the key.
After that, you add a kick sample, but make it so short so that only the punch is in there.

So you have one layer of kick and one layer of punch.
You play your notes on the kick-layer and leave the punch-layer intact.
That way you can make it sound like the kick is tuned, without loosing the ever important transients of the kick.

I haven't heard the song you're on about though, so I could be totally wrong, but that's how it's done in Hardstyle.

There's even a video of it on youtube.com (Caution, very hard and loud): YouTube - Hardstyle kick tutorial by Yhimself - on FL Studio using 3xOsc

[jamie10]

Originally Posted by RyanC

Sounds like a real bass on In Da Club, I'm hearing a little bend on the last E-C#. I think it's just played so that the notes stop at the right places.

I don't think the pitch is changing on the kicks in the TI big shit, but definitly whatever you like has that.

But what you are talking about is either one of two things. The long 808/909 kick with the pitch changing with the chords. Or the other trick is to use the kick to sidechain gate a bass and then just hold the notes down. The TI track is really long, so it's probably a short 808 sound with a SC gated bass.

TI song, is more complex as regards to kick and bass that it seems.
if you listen to it all carefully, in the breakdowns etc, you can learn about whats happening and whats causing the sounds you hear.... i felt. ..

i was gonna test out sidechaining my bass using the kick, to clean the mix up.... ie when the kick hits, it ducks out the bass using a compressor SC. Similar process for "opening" the bass synth?

TI song is really long? you mean the bass note?
yeah the main bass line is long notes.....but theres more stuff happening withing the track i think.....a diff embellishing bass....and diff tuned kicks..... i think.

im gonna need to devote some time to playing around with these things. This is interesting.

[jamie10]

Originally Posted by Phenex

I don't know if this helps you a lot or not, but in a genre called Hardstyle, they do this all the time.
Basically what it is, is synthesizing a kick in a synth, by using a sine osc with a pitch envelope.
The frequency then drops from really high to really low in very few ms and stops dropping once it hits the desired note and goes on for as long as you hold in the key.
After that, you add a kick sample, but make it so short so that only the punch is in there.

So you have one layer of kick and one layer of punch.
You play your notes on the kick-layer and leave the punch-layer intact.
That way you can make it sound like the kick is tuned, without loosing the ever important transients of the kick.

I haven't heard the song you're on about though, so I could be totally wrong, but that's how it's done in Hardstyle.

There's even a video of it on youtube.com (Caution, very hard and loud): YouTube - Hardstyle kick tutorial by Yhimself - on FL Studio using 3xOsc

"synthesizing a kick in a synth, by using a sine osc with a pitch envelope." this sounds like it could be what i was talking about.

Im not fully getting this yet but ill work on what you say and play around... thanks.
Have a listen to inda club if you can, to see whats going on with the kick/bass there.

[RyanC]

No on "whatever you like" it's a gate not a compressor. The bass notes are pretty long for an tuned X0X thing.

So the gate opens when the kick hits. You just hold down the note, and then the kick plays the bass. You can set the attack a little slower if they are fighting. Different thing than ducking though.

On "big shit poppin" there are a few different kicks going on, but to me the bass just sounds like it's ringing right through, just mixed in low so the kicks overpower it. I was just listening on Youtube though so I'll have to listen to it when I get home.

[MYAMS]

It seems like what you are confused about is layering. Yes you can layer a kick with an 808, a kick with a bass, a kick with a bass with an 808. This is the basics of hip-hop production. I would find a friend who has some experience making beats show you the ropes.

[jamie10]

Originally Posted by RyanC

No on "whatever you like" it's a gate not a compressor. The bass notes are pretty long for an tuned X0X thing.

So the gate opens when the kick hits. You just hold down the note, and then the kick plays the bass. You can set the attack a little slower if they are fighting. Different thing than ducking though.

On "big shit poppin" there are a few different kicks going on, but to me the bass just sounds like it's ringing right through, just mixed in low so the kicks overpower it. I was just listening on Youtube though so I'll have to listen to it when I get home.

just listening to whatever you like....(this is something TOTALLY diff to what this thread is about, this is ducking, right? when the bass hits, the synth/bass dips? this is achieved by compressor, well it can be, sidechaining using a compressor i belivieve.

"So the gate opens when the kick hits. You just hold down the note, and then the kick plays the bass. You can set the attack a little slower if they are fighting. Different thing than ducking though" ......can you explain a simple set up so i can try this?

so yes, the kick can
- dip the bass/synth (to make room for it)
- activate a bass synth note

big shit poppin main kicks are 808 right?

[Chris Lago]

What you're trying to figure out seems so complicated, yet I listen to the track and all I hear is a good producer who layered the beat and a good mixing engineer who blended the layers. I hear a bass that is cut tight so that when the clap hits, the bass stops, simple.

[Chris Lago]

Do you mean something like this? Where the bass follows the kick? if so, just use a bass at the same place as your kicks, and make he bass stop when the clap comes in.

[TonyBelmont]

In Da Club has... a kick drum, a layered 808 (on certain kicks), and a played bassline (likely a live bass or could be a filtered synth who knows)....

[korbes]

Originally Posted by jamie10

you know its there because the previous naked kick sounds diff....

I just listended to In da Club and Slave 4 U as you named these two as examples of whatever it is you're after.
And basically I heard what I quoted you say above: the kick changes, it's not sounding exactly the same alle the time.
Certain kicks seem to have been augmented with deeper frequency content, may it be by layering a deeper kick sample or playing a deep bass sound underneath or however.

Don't be afraid to experiment! You know what sound you're after so try to duplicate it in order to understand it better.
Program some drums and try to achieve the contrast between a "naked" kick and the "dressed" :-) one.

Originally Posted by MYAMS

It seems like what you are confused about is layering. Yes you can layer a kick with an 808, a kick with a bass, a kick with a bass with an 808. This is the basics of hip-hop production. I would find a friend who has some experience making beats show you the ropes.

+1

[jamie10]

Originally Posted by chrislago

Do you mean something like this? Where the bass follows the kick? if so, just use a bass at the same place as your kicks, and make he bass stop when the clap comes in.

no man. (unless my speakers cant hear your example)
i explained the thing in my earlier posts.
your example is just a bass line on top of the kick...


but thanks for putting that up...

in da club and slave 4 u are not the same i think. I need to hear slave again to confirm. Slave is just bass synth note hitting in unison with kick and cutting short.....i dont think theres any kick augmenting like in in da club style....
some of you are not hearing the particular effect in in da club i think.


These are somewhere in the ball park i think:
- blueprint song by Jay Z (intro drums).
- shittin on world from Dre presents aftermath album
- in da club example is not as obvious or noticable, subtle

- girlfriend remix...by jermain dupri...alicia keys....IS THIS WHATS HAPPENING IN IN DA CLUB BUT IN A QUIETER/SUBTLER WAY?
- this is nice: "ready to meet him" dmx...at the end of track....any comment on that?

the in da club effect, i can barely hear on my studio monitors, you need sub heavy speakers to hear it (its not the main bass line, its in between that, when its just drums playing)

tonybelmont: yes you hear what i mean......the 808 is layered with orginal kick, right...... or could be a bass synth note? its not definately a 808 kick is it?

Korbes: yes the kick changes in in da club....thats waht i mean..."Certain kicks seem to have been augmented with deeper frequency content, may it be by layering a deeper kick sample or playing a deep bass sound underneath or however.".....thats what im talking about....well said.........i will try these things when i get chance..........

thanks

[MYAMS]

Originally Posted by jamie10

no man. (unless my speakers cant hear your example)
i explained the thing in my earlier posts.
your example is just a bass line on top of the kick...


but thanks for putting that up...

in da club and slave 4 u are not the same i think. I need to hear slave again to confirm. Slave is just bass synth note hitting in unison with kick and cutting short.....i dont think theres any kick augmenting like in in da club style....
some of you are not hearing the particular effect in in da club i think.


These are somewhere in the ball park i think:
- blueprint song by Jay Z (intro drums).
- shittin on world from Dre presents aftermath album
- in da club example is not as obvious or noticable, subtle

- this is nice: "ready to meet him" dmx...at the end of track....any comment on that?

the in da club effect, i can barely hear on my studio monitors, you need sub heavy speakers to hear it (its not the main bass line, its in between that, when its just drums playing)

tonybelmont: yes you hear what i mean......the 808 is layered with orginal kick, right...... or could be a bass synth note? its not definately a 808 kick is it?

Korbes: yes the kick changes in in da club....thats waht i mean..."Certain kicks seem to have been augmented with deeper frequency content, may it be by layering a deeper kick sample or playing a deep bass sound underneath or however.".....thats what im talking about....well said.........i will try these things when i get chance..........

thanks

We can all hear it almost anywhere... it ain't about the speakers as much as trained ears

[Ray Sr.]

I think you're making too much of this. It's just a kick on some hits, an 808 layered on others & The Bass is playing different notes as the kick hits.

This is my favorite 50 song.

[jamie10]

MYAMS = you can have the best ears in the world, but if youre monitoring is wack, you aint gonna hear it...without pushing the bass eq UP till it distorts (as ive been doing in itunes....my tannoy active reveal monitors are not working for me...all my mixes have too much bass, when i listen in car etc, but in my room with those speakers, i need to push it up to hear bass(eq)..but then thats too much for normal systems, but thats another thread im gonna start soon)

Ray SR = i dont even think its an 808 now...it doesent sound like an 808 layer.... does it?
I need to start another thread on 808's too.

THers sub bass synth patches that get kinda close to this effect if you layer it.

[MYAMS]

Originally Posted by jamie10

MYAMS = you can have the best ears in the world, but if youre monitoring is wack, you aint gonna hear it...without pushing the bass eq UP till it distorts (as ive been doing in itunes....my tannoy active reveal monitors are not working for me...all my mixes have too much bass, when i listen in car etc, but in my room with those speakers, i need to push it up to hear bass(eq)..but then thats too much for normal systems, but thats another thread im gonna start soon)

Ray SR = i dont even think its an 808 now...it doesent sound like an 808 layer.... does it?
I need to start another thread on 808's too.

THers sub bass synth patches that get kinda close to this effect if you layer it.

I am listening on cheap krk rocket 8s right now and i have no issues hearing the track. Not sure what the big deal is here if you are impressed by having mroe than 1 "sub" component, this is nothing new.

[korbes]

Originally Posted by jamie10

MYAMS = you can have the best ears in the world, but if youre monitoring is wack, you aint gonna hear it...without pushing the bass eq UP till it distorts (as ive been doing in itunes....my tannoy active reveal monitors are not working for me...all my mixes have too much bass, when i listen in car etc, but in my room with those speakers, i need to push it up to hear bass(eq)..but then thats too much for normal systems, but thats another thread im gonna start soon)

jamies, my post references also to your post in the "favorite mains" thread, since you mention similar things there.


If you find your monitors to be too bass shy, the first thing that comes to mind is to buy a subwoofer if that is possible financially.

Apart from that, you should find some reference CDs (take In da Club for example) to evaluate how your Tannoys reproduce bass.
Make sure that your mix does not have a bigger low end on your Tannoys than the reference mix has.
Of course there is still some guessing involved with this method since you obviously can't hear what your monitors can't reproduce
BUT at least this should help you prevent overdoing the bass in your mixes so they won't distort when played back on other systems.

Maybe you do have a pair of headphones that go deeper than your Tannoys? You can also use these to help you approximate your bass level.

Originally Posted by jamie10

Ray SR = i dont even think its an 808 now...it doesent sound like an 808 layer.... does it?
I need to start another thread on 808's too.

Please don't

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by MYAMS

I am listening on cheap krk rocket 8s right now and i have no issues hearing the track. Not sure what the big deal is here if you are impressed by having mroe than 1 "sub" component, this is nothing new.

I think the track is pretty simple, I don't hear anything substancial here, and I listened to it with Ns10s and HS50 monitors. Pretty sure he puts 2 kick layers, one with a bigger low end, and then puts the bass in it and that's it. Are you sure you're not imaginating things? How come you're one of the only ones to hear this little effect of yours?

I just find this thing you are talking about is 1 small part in the whole production, and doesn't make or break the track.

[MYAMS]

Originally Posted by chrislago

I think the track is pretty simple, I don't hear anything substancial here, and I listened to it with Ns10s and HS50 monitors. Pretty sure he puts 2 kick layers, one with a bigger low end, and then puts the bass in it and that's it. Are you sure you're not imaginating things? How come you're one of the only ones to hear this little effect of yours?

I just find this thing you are talking about is 1 small part in the whole production, and doesn't make or break the track.

I am hearing either an 808 with live bass, or live bass layered with a sine bass... It might be combination of both lol

Jamie, you sound like a lost puppy hear I would grab some 808s, hip hop drums, some soft synths or whatever and expiment layering and seeing how sounds go together.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by MYAMS

I am hearing either an 808 with live bass, or live bass layered with a sine bass... It might be combination of both lol

Jamie, you sound like a lost puppy hear I would grab some 808s, hip hop drums, some soft synths or whatever and expiment layering and seeing how sounds go together.

Or, he could experiment and make a brand new beat that doesn't sound like In the club