Mixing dry......

[Storyville]

I actually find myself doing my mixes in a weird way. I'll put alot of efx, compression, eq, etc on, and then start taking it off. The reason is I have the personality that like to do a lot, and try many things, and have many options. I tend to overmix. So now, I overmix, and work my way backwards, this way I feel like I'm doing alot. Now that I'm tracking and working in good studios I find mixes tend not to need as much (though, they need what they need).

As for reverb, I rarely want the reverb to be focal element in the mix. I usually use it as a supporting element, although I have been enjoying PSMs use of reverb which has been a significantly more indulgent use. Part of the reason is that if your reverb sounds good, you can really get away with using a lot more of it.

I still think of reverb in terms of tone, texture and rhythm though. I do it less mathematically and more by ear now that I've been mixing with the Soul Man. I used to aim straight for the mathematics, and make slight variations if need be. Now I'll approximate the mathematics and start deviating to see if things get better or worse, and just keep going until I find the best spot - which is sometimes very far from the math.

[HoPMiX]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

I have no idea why the hip hop community is so afraid of reverb as its a GOOD thing.

DRY?? NO VERB?? i guess each his own.
in my mix template i have 4 verbs. 1 tight room, hall, plate, and ambience, a slap(patch231). and 2-3 delays.
and i typically use 2 verbs on on source.
but you may think i mix dry on some things. very little verb goes a long way...esp after mastering

[FredYeah]

Good post.

Bookmarked it.

Thanx guys (PSM) fot the setings to start out with. BTW. What do you guys think of the standard Bombfactory Digi plugs (verbs) ? Are they on par with the stuff you guys are talking about, or not even close?

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by FredYeah

Good post.

Bookmarked it.

Thanx guys (PSM) fot the setings to start out with. BTW. What do you guys think of the standard Bombfactory Digi plugs (verbs) ? Are they on par with the stuff you guys are talking about, or not even close?

Lately,I have been revisiting the D Verbs and I kind of like them on certain things for added color in my mixes..

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by Storyville

I actually find myself doing my mixes in a weird way. I'll put alot of efx, compression, eq, etc on, and then start taking it off. The reason is I have the personality that like to do a lot, and try many things, and have many options. I tend to overmix. So now, I overmix, and work my way backwards, this way I feel like I'm doing alot. Now that I'm tracking and working in good studios I find mixes tend not to need as much (though, they need what they need).

As for reverb, I rarely want the reverb to be focal element in the mix. I usually use it as a supporting element, although I have been enjoying PSMs use of reverb which has been a significantly more indulgent use. Part of the reason is that if your reverb sounds good, you can really get away with using a lot more of it.

I still think of reverb in terms of tone, texture and rhythm though. I do it less mathematically and more by ear now that I've been mixing with the Soul Man. I used to aim straight for the mathematics, and make slight variations if need be. Now I'll approximate the mathematics and start deviating to see if things get better or worse, and just keep going until I find the best spot - which is sometimes very far from the math.

Its a pleasure having you on the Studio E team and I am impressed with your skills and work ethic. Way to go!!

[Ryan West]

No doubt. I would agree somewhat about the over processing. Much of the sound of commercial music is the sound of compression. Tracks are squeezed within an inch of their life for a number of reasons. We no longer have tape doing any compression, saturation or distortion... so we reach for compression to give character. Also, much of that music lacks dnamic, so we try to create some artificially...with compression and other techniques. Music is compressed again in mastering and yet again on the radio... so yes... THERE'S A LOT OF COMPRESSION. Lol.

Originally Posted by deuc647

Thanks Ryan for coming in and giving some tips here, greatly appeciated. Would you agree that a lot of todays music is processed too much? The short verbs and delays is something imma try, thanks

[Storyville]

It's interesting how compression effects reverb. 2-buss compression has this weird way of changing it. First it starts bringing the reverb up in the mix, and toward the "front". Then it starts making it feel like the space is a tight box. Eventually it starts to sound more like a weird delay than a reverb.

A little bit of 2 buss compression helps reinforce the rhythmic sense in the reverb, gives it that added rise and fall from the release of the comp.

[deuc647]

Yeah seems like compression is killing a lot of music these days. Kinda sad, I love the sound of a really dynamic mix. Ryan, do u use a lot of outboard comps or plugs? Or a mixture of both.

Storyville, when u said that 2 buss compression make the verb sound up front and in a tight box.... you described it perfectly.

Do most of you guys:

Limit(compress) then eq
Or
eq then limit(compress)
The 2 buss?
I limit the eq.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Ryan West

Try using VERY short effects for a dry but spacious sound. They can give dimension and space without sounding washed out. Short verbs....350ms or less...timed to the song....short delays at 120ms or less...timed with the song and panned a little. You can spread out a vocal of sample with a short delay to add some depth by panning the dry signal in one direction and the delayed in another. Mess around...find what works for you. I find that by keeping mixes clean initially, I can add larger, more specific verbs and delays a bit later in the mix... and make it really special! Mixing is about subtlety... so spend lots of time defining the space in your mix with the right effects. Most songs that sound "dry" on the radio actually have a series of short verbs and delays in there! Don't forget to think about EQing and compressing those effects. You might find something really cool.

This is what you need for songs that you want to sound raw or dry but yet still impart some space and seperation and sense of depth. I often will use *really* short verbs on speech, rap or voiceover. You won't even really hear it as a causal listener but as a mixer when you A/B it, it makes a clear difference. TC Native Reverb is great for this... really short vocal verbs and really short verbs for an entire song... home mastering etc.

His tip about eq'ing effects is dead on also. One of the first things I learned when I first started studying engineering in school was how sound behaves in acoustic spaces (e.g. not outdoors). If you want to impart (fake) depth you have to paint a room and real rooms have varying frequency responses as do their reflections. Delays (for that purpose) should react like real delays in real rooms and get dampened in the high end etc, etc.

A great mix engineer can literally "paint" a wall with delays. Make you sense where that barrier might be, the size of the space etc.

The ear can take the most subtle of cues for those things. This is why pro engineers need great monitors to hear those very subtle things very clearly.

[illacov]

Originally Posted by deuc647

What up slutz, lately ive been finding that mi y mixes are becoming more dry. I dont mean stale, but im using less reverb and less efx when im doing a mixdown. not to say i dont use any efx, but im really using very lil compression, reverb and delay. Im liking it because its sounding more natural, but im wondering if anyone else is mixing like this or are a lot of you guys really efx heavy?

BTW, i do use efx on vocals.

One of the things you'll discover when you begin to experiment with different mix techniques is how awesome delays are and how good great reverbs are.

To me a good reverb is one that melds with the mix and doesn't stand out like HIGH IM REVERB!!

Delay, i tend to push forward more for an effect on the listener but it has to be tasteful. I tend to dump my delays to tape, along with my reverb.

For vocals, I like to make sure that they aren't drowning in modulation effects or reverbs.

Compression is at times a big handicap for getting a great mix. Ever since I learned how to do autopilot automation on vocals in Reaper, I've really backed off on plug in compression on the lead vocal and relied alot more on automation.

I still do send out a parallel compression buss for vocals, pre efx (so no automation on the para buss) and this is where the squashing etc happens on the vocal for the desired oomph, but I also tend to track with compression so I have really stepped away from putting any compression plug ins on the naked vocals track. Automation just sounds alot more natural and blends better with the parallel vocals track.

When you finally get your summing unit, you'll find that slapping your vocals on a mono channel makes em pop alot more and you have more play in the gain to just turn up the vocal versus compressing it for level like alot of folks wind up doing with ITB mixing.

Its very easy with that kind of set up (your summing unit) to forget about efx on the vocals and leave em the way they are because they probably have a nice sweet spot thing going on and maybe you feel they don't need fx.

I would really avoid shitty reverbs unless that's a desired sound.

For vocals, try plates first and also put reverb on channels that can be EQ'd compressed etc and are independent of their source tracks (pre/fader pre fx sends).

Peace
Illumination

[Ryan West]

I try to retain as much of the dynamics as possible and use automation to keep the levels right...as well as add dynamic on occasion. Sometimes a song can appear more dynamic when you use compression to keep certain elements in check...like bass for example... and that opens up space for other instruments who can really benefit from the increased headroom and space.

Originally Posted by deuc647

Yeah seems like compression is killing a lot of music these days. Kinda sad, I love the sound of a really dynamic mix. Ryan, do u use a lot of outboard comps or plugs? Or a mixture of both.

Storyville, when u said that 2 buss compression make the verb sound up front and in a tight box.... you described it perfectly.

Do most of you guys:

Limit(compress) then eq
Or
eq then limit(compress)
The 2 buss?
I limit the eq.

[Ryan West]

Also... I almost always try limiting then EQ, then reverse it to see what difference it makes. I tend more often to limit then EQ because I don't apply buss comp/limit and EQ until at least halfway through the mix...so I've already balanced it how I want it for the most part. Then I use the limiter in moderation to bring the sound together a bit...and use a good program EQ to restore some of the high frequencies lost in limiting as well as shape the low end a bit. By applying those later, the fundamental width, depth, shape, etc are defined by the mix...and then I use the limiter and EQ to enhance...not make up for something lacking in the mix.

Originally Posted by deuc647

Yeah seems like compression is killing a lot of music these days. Kinda sad, I love the sound of a really dynamic mix. Ryan, do u use a lot of outboard comps or plugs? Or a mixture of both.

Storyville, when u said that 2 buss compression make the verb sound up front and in a tight box.... you described it perfectly.

Do most of you guys:

Limit(compress) then eq
Or
eq then limit(compress)
The 2 buss?
I limit the eq.

[Storyville]

Alot of times I compress during tracking - modestly. I try to eq before reverbs most of the time. Send to reverbs before compression. I'm not much on limiting, except on drums. Eq after limiting though. Limiting tends to change the way the tones sound, so it sometimes takes eq to make things sound more natural.

[Justice]

Real Business.....

Reverb is rare in TODAYS industry mixes.

Im talking about the hot music today not the mixes of yesteryear.

or backpack rap. Billboard records.

personally I think reverb is great.

but most A&R's and Artist hate hearin it on there mixes.

Very little... If any.

If you need to use a lot of reverb to bring out your mix, something is wrong.

A nice soild dry mix with good levels and sounds will stand out, reverb tends to hollow out the sound.

Rap catz hate that!!!

If you do use reverb make sure to EQ the buss to match the rest of the mix, most presets are wick wick wack and need to be warmed up.

If you been an engineer for a while you know what rap katz say. "Why do I sound like im in a tunnel?"


my two cents

[Storyville]

Although, I have definitely seen engineers get pretty liberal with reverb and delay and get fantastic results even in HIP HOP.... eek.

[bgrotto]

Of course, every engineer has his or her own approach, so to say categorically that "rap records are dry" or "rap records have a million subtle little reverbs and other effects floating around in the background" is nonsense. Every mixer is gonna do things their own way.

Not to mention, I'm not sure how much reverb you'd hear as "very little" versus what you'd hear as "lots", cuz it's a very subjective thing, but do I think some folks would be pretty surprised at just how much reverb (and all sorts of other effects) might go into a mix - rap or otherwise - that they perceive as "dry".

Remember, not hearing it doesn't mean it's not there.

For those with a few spare minutes who wanna check out the way reverb and other effects are used in a rap mix context (or any context), give this a try:

1. import a song into your DAW
2. pan the left and right channels to the center, so you're listening to the mix in mono
3. flip the polarity on one side

This will cancel out any information panned to the center, revealing the out-of-phase information (which is basically listening to just the sides). You'll lose any mono reverbs panned center, but you'll hear all sorts of interesting tidbits floating around that you might not be able to pick out with normal listening (or confirm that a mix is as dry as you thought!).

It's a fun and very enlightening experiment. It can also help you trouble-shoot problems in your own mixes.

Either way, if your records sound like they were recorded in a tunnel every time you add reverb to something, you're using the reverb incorrectly and may wanna experiment further to refine your approach.

[deuc647]

I know i perceive a lot of reverb as like the song bosses life on the blue carpet treatment, the clap, thats a lot of verb. Actually almost everything on that song had lots of verb, even that piano riff, the one busta used on his earlier album intro.

[DaKid]

There's reverb all over Eminem's Relapse album, and it sounds damn good.