Points? Selling beats work-4-hire?

[Umlaaat]

What are points? And what is the "standard" point dividend when selling beats?
I've sold a few, but am curious to know if you should sell it straight out (does that mean Exclusive Licensing or you just straight sell it like ice cream?

I realize Timbaland might get a bit more than I, but what are ball park rates for selling beats/leasing?

thx

[Stoneface]

In this day and age, beats and producers are a dime a dozen. If you don't have a legitamate track record with well know labels or artists, it's really what you CAN sell em for and not so much what you should sell them for.

Anytime you can get points on a record, it's a positive thing. But that's with the understanding that the record will sell. Many independents will try and get you with the low, low up front fee and then crazy points on a record that will never sell. tutt

My advice, is just look at every client individually. Who are they? What's thier track record? If the record is successful and they owe you royalties, will it be like going to war with Death Row to get your money?

I like to get my money upfront. I let fate take care of the rest. Obviously if I was dealing with some big wig, this could easily change.

[Umlaaat]

yeah, thats kinda what i'm going on now. I agree with taking as much as you can upfront, unless its someone major..

But can someone explain how the point system works?

thx

[Stoneface]

Originally Posted by Umlaaat

yeah, thats kinda what i'm going on now. I agree with taking as much as you can upfront, unless its someone major..

But can someone explain how the point system works?

thx

3-5 points is pretty standard. If a song becomes a single, this could turn it to lots of doe if it's a hit. If it's just another song on a record then everything gets spread out. Obviously if you only did one track on a 10 song CD your track only accounts for 1/10th of the whole album. So, a contract may be written as you will recieve 3-5 points on 1/10th of the albums sold. This is just an example.

Another thing, when signing a production agreement with someone (assuming this person at least semi knows what they are doing.) the upfront fees you may recieve are mearly an advance on your royalties. (Points = percent owed | Percent owed =royalties) This advance must be recouped before you will begin seeing checks. If at all possible, try and get your "advance" as non-recoupable" which means you keep the advance no matter what and the label must begin paying you royalties once the album begins to sell. Most who even half know what they are doing would never agree to this. But it does happen and you should always fight to shift the deal in your best interest and not the label. Easier said than done, I know.

There is a thread right now about a $2 million dollar beat. Let's use this for an example. Let's say you were paid $2 million for a track that becomes a single. Keep in mind you still are getting the same 3-5 points on the record. Now, your $2 million you already recieved. The label has to recoup that $2 million before you ever see another dime and that's at 3-5 percent. We're not talking the label sells enough to GROSS $2 million but rather 3-5 percent of what the label grosses needs to equal $2 million.

So, how many copies of the single must the label sell a $5.99 to recoup it's $2 million advance to the producer? Hell, I don't know. I'm too lazy to do the math. I can tell you that if the label grosses $10 million on the single, at 5% that's only $500,000. Which means this song needs to bring in $40 million just to recoup the producers advance. (If it's true someone paid $2 million for a beat...it's easy to see that it's financially a STUPID decision. )

There are many ways to structure this. I haven't really dove into this subject in a while so I'm a bit rusty. Some of my advice may be a bit off . So my best advice is head down to the bookstore and pick up a book or two on recording industry legal practices. Or stop by the library and check some out for free. If I digressed off your topic to much, my bad...this is a topic that has an infinate number of variables.

[minehead]

I'm not from the Hip-Hop world, although I've been a drummer/percussionist since age 10 and groove and beat are my strongest areas of expertise...I was wondering how so many people are makin' so much cash selling beats ?
With the proliferation of samples, loops, virtual drum machines, etc...why would someone need to pay someone to bang out a beat ? And how do you break into a scene that would audition your beats and consider buying them ? I've had some chart success on a few independent sites, and I'm tryin' to get paid at this point. I'm consciously approaching Hip-Hop from a monetary standpoint...I tend to make very slick grooves for my music, but they don't fall into a Hip-Hop category...they're good , but different, maybe a too much like soundtrack (James Newton Howard or"Peter Gabriel-ish")...maybe not commercial enough...I'm becoming very envious of these ballers who are making ridiculous amounts of cash, for what seems like a job that many could fill...any help would be appreciated...thanks.

[DirtyDizzy]

People are making so much cash even on the internet because there is so many rappers making mixtapes and demo's trying to be the next big thing and they are willing to pay 20$ for a non-exclusive beat here and there. It's more about finding them, giving them what they want and staying in contact.

[President Harris]

Originally Posted by DirtyDizzy

People are making so much cash even on the internet because there is so many rappers making mixtapes and demo's trying to be the next big thing and they are willing to pay 20$ for a non-exclusive beat here and there. It's more about finding them, giving them what they want and staying in contact.

Exactly, Some producers have made over $100,000 in a year from multiple $20-40 beat sales over the internet. Not bad

[PhonoquO]

Beats and Beatmakers are a dime-a-dozen. Great songwriters are not.

[croger]

Originally Posted by President Harris

Exactly, Some producers have made over $100,000 in a year from multiple $20-40 beat sales over the internet. Not bad

thats 7.5 beats sold every day for a year at 40 dollars. or 15 beats every day at 20 dollars. I don't believe it.

[phillysoulman]

Selling beats for 20 freeking dollars??

What kind of stupid crap is that???
What happens if the purchaser gets lucky and actually gets a hit with a 20 dollar beat??
Is the seller then screwed out of the eventual resulting royalties or is there a clause which actually protects them in such a scenario??
It seems as though the seller might as well get a jar of Vaseline.

[PhonoquO]

the internet has allowed bedroom producers to de-value a beats worth, as the younger people are willing to accept 20 or 50 bux, but that is their right. supply and demand.

[kingchong]

yea, unfortunately i resulted into sellin beats for $50 for non exclusive.. i dont like to do it but i gotta make some $$.. i already got ripped off for my PT files of a beat when i first posted em on the net.. make sure u get a contract BEFORE you send anything!!! ive been producing for a while, locally, then i realized what everyone was about around here and decided to put my shit on the net without knowin anything about the biz.. im learnin the hard way. o well, i got the fire safe and the ok sh*t on the net...

[verb1]

Originally Posted by croger

thats 7.5 beats sold every day for a year at 40 dollars. or 15 beats every day at 20 dollars. I don't believe it.

That's because it's bullshit!

I'd rather never sell a beat than license my shit for $25 out to some 15-year-old square ass suburban kid recording in his mom's closet. I'd rather give my shit away to kids around the way and help keep them off the block.

[computa]

IMHO, you gotta start somewhere.

Kanye West was selling his beats for $50 when he started out in the chi.

Rockwilder aint had a hit record in almost 10 years but he's makin a killin on his site selling beats just as cheap.

Some see it as an option. Sell yourself short and make some $ and pay your bills hoping to catch a break and get noticed OR work that 9-5 that u hate, listen to your beats at home with your homies and hope somebody knocks on your door to give you that "big break" or somebody connected listens to one of your beat cds and likes what they hear.

I started out giving away beats for free to 2 major mixtape djs who wanted custom remixes of records for their CDs.

[Justice]

Dont be fooled major artists are doing it too.

Its all about business. This is a business.

Don't let ANYONE tell you what your worth is.

The age old your not "HOT" or dont have credits is the best way to get a buster to give up them beats for $20 or free.

If they want it they will pay or jack you so keep you business str8 (Copywrite, ASCAP, BMI) protect your music.

I know a well known producer now that just found out his shit got jaked by a well known artist.

It happens all day.

Just have game.

There are no more rules, Just do you!

If a cat is telling you that well you anit Scott Dork you cant get $5,000 to $10, 000 up front then you dont deserve it.

Play hardball.

[DirtyDizzy]

I'm not sayin they make 100$ thousand a year but they are making ALOT from MULTIPLE sites....

Database Error

For example: Young Dru has over $11,000 in sales off rocbattle alone - Big Boy has almost the same. They're both top sellers on the other sites too like Mybeatshop, Beatswagger, TheBeatTrader Etc. AND They also sell beats at they're own .com websites. So when you add it up yes they're making tons of cash and your kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

Selling a beat non-exclusive isn't a bad thing, YOUR KEEPING THE RIGHTS and the rights to RE-SELL it. So what if you don't like who is rapping over your instrumental, if your selling the same beat to 1000 crappy rappers then that is massive promotion for YOU as a producer - not even including the money you get. If the non-exclusive song you sold turns into a hit you won't get screwed, you'll get PAID because you'll have the publishing rights and he'll come running trying to get them. You would also have tons more REAL rappers getting at you for beats from then on.

Shit look at the guy who produced 50 Cent - I Get money. He got his Beat JACKED off soundclick by another producer who sold it to 50 cent and what happened ? he was in Scratch mag. talking about it the next month - talking about all the new money and clients he got.

I'm not saying you have to sell beats online to get money i'm just saying it's another option.

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by DirtyDizzy

Shit look at the guy who produced 50 Cent - I Get money. He got his Beat JACKED off soundclick by another producer who sold it to 50 cent and what happened ? he was in Scratch mag. talking about it the next month - talking about all the new money and clients he got.

Yea man, Apex been the shiit from long time homie. As a rapper, the first song I ever got on radio was made using one of his beats. I wonder how much that dude is charging now a days lol....

[croger]

Originally Posted by DirtyDizzy

I'm not sayin they make 100$ thousand a year but they are making ALOT from MULTIPLE sites....

Database Error

For example: Young Dru has over $11,000 in sales off rocbattle alone - Big Boy has almost the same. They're both top sellers on the other sites too like Mybeatshop, Beatswagger, TheBeatTrader Etc. AND They also sell beats at they're own .com websites. So when you add it up yes they're making tons of cash and your kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

.

i would applaud ANYONE who can hustle and sell their tracks online and make 11k or more. but 11kx5 websites is only 55k. and 55k doesn't even get close to pay my bills for the year you feel me? :-) Now for a kid starting out that is a lot of money. when I started out I worked for 100 dollars a week as an intern at a recording studio. and I lived in NYC and had to eat and pay rent on 400 dollars a month. let me just say I was broke... And if I could of made 50k I would of felt like baller lol.
right now the rap game is so over saturated with beat makers. its the vetting of talent that the rap game had coming for a long time. only people with the talent, resources (money), and the smarts to navigate this time in the industry will survive to the next phase. So I cheer the new kids that can make ANY money selling beats online. but don't be mistaken. in the hey day of the rap game the money flowed like water. and to tell me people are cakin it off selling beats online is just not my reality.
.
so i guess it all depends on what you consider tons of cash.

[azwun25]

Originally Posted by minehead

I'm consciously approaching Hip-Hop from a monetary standpoint...

no offense but if thats the case, with no hiphop backround, stay the fuk out. theres enough of that bullshit out there and the culture has been pimped enough.

oh by the way, welcome to GS!

[Hedorah]

$20-$50 a beat is cool for a kid living at home or even a college student with low overhead. But when your talking about grown men with car notes or a home or even an apartment in a major city. That's not enough... unless your pushing 15-20 beats a day. And if your a producer that puts a lot of time into your craft I think your selling yourself short. But if your just knockin' out basic beats in like 30 minutes for someone to rap over it's not a bad thing.

[Smoke M2D6]

unless it is a major label, or an indy that is going to sell over 30k records would I take points. If I sold beats on points i would still have never made a cent off of my beats, and I have had beats that have made it on some fairly large projects.

selling beats for $50 just makes you more accessible to a bunch of garbage that will fling poo all over your tracks. Unless a bunch of people are all fighting over something you made that you feel like you could part with then should you consider selling it for what ever you can get for it...and at that it should only be the rights to do a song over the beat. If the want to buy the copywrite to the beat, then that will cost even more......

[drumbo]

Hey All!!

i just signed up to this site after reading through this forum, I'm just starting to look into selling my beats and all the posts here raise some good points...

i'm thinking that the best way would be to place your beats into different brackets (ie gold platinum & silver or something). This way the beats you just bang out could be like £20 - £50 un - exclusively ( basically sell them for days, quick cash ), the better ones could be like £100 -£200 and your best ones you've spent months perfecting could be something between £200 - £400/£500. or even higher.

i also think it would be best to sign up to as many beat selling sites as poss, then get your name out more and hope for the best.

i plan on doing this on the side as me and my mate are currently working on a new album ( Long Live Immortality ) as well as juggling my day job ( there's just not enough time in the day).


some of the people i used to know when i lived in the north were selling there beats for £600 - £800 a pop, making mad money when there beats were sh*t. That makes me think why can't i do the same!


If i was gonna try do this full time, has anyone got any advice or tips especially with the legal side of things? and how to go about making it or just making a living? i wanna get into a position where i can make a living off making beats cos day jobs suck and all i wanna do is make music.

safe

Christian

[gorillainthemix]

If you want good money for your beats, you should check out some post-production librabries such as Atmosphere (Universal) etc. I've sold beats to radio stations and stock music libraries for €500-€1000 per track + royalties.
For example:
My first national commercial (15 secs!) made me €6500, just off royalties....to me that's good money for 15 secs:

That's on top of the €1000 fee I charge for national commercials. That was almost 2 years ago, and I can't complain so far


The real (consistent) money is in TV/Film/Radio production music. Because companies etc will always pay you.
This way I make a living, while working on my side-projects with artists that will (hopefully) pop off some time this year. There are composers who make tons each year producing for commercials, company films etc...It's the only business in the music industry (next to music/sound for games) that is still making significant profits, without having to worry about massive downloading by "fans".

And in Holland, hip-hop beats don't go for more than €200-€250 p/track, and that's what "established" crews offer for beats. You're lucky if you sell 20,000 copies here with a hip-hop album.

[gorillainthemix]

Originally Posted by croger

i would applaud ANYONE who can hustle and sell their tracks online and make 11k or more. but 11kx5 websites is only 55k. and 55k doesn't even get close to pay my bills for the year you feel me?
....
so i guess it all depends on what you consider tons of cash.

I know NYC is expensive but 55k/year is an above average income, even here in Holland.

[voicegenius]

Originally Posted by President Harris

Exactly, Some producers have made over $100,000 in a year from multiple $20-40 beat sales over the internet. Not bad

[voicegenius]

Originally Posted by The Dutch Master

If you want good money for your beats, you should check out some post-production librabries such as Atmosphere (Universal) etc. I've sold beats to radio stations and stock music libraries for €500-€1000 per track + royalties.

For example:
My first national commercial (15 secs!) made me €6500, just off royalties....to me that's good money for 15 secs:

That's on top of the €1000 fee I charge for national commercials. That was almost 2 years ago, and I can't complain so far


The real (consistent) money is in TV/Film/Radio production music. Because companies etc will always pay you.
This way I make a living, while working on my side-projects with artists that will (hopefully) pop off some time this year. There are composers who make tons each year producing for commercials, company films etc...It's the only business in the music industry (next to music/sound for games) that is still making significant profits, without having to worry about massive downloading by "fans".

+2 thumbsup ... I don't know about the "company will always pay you" (not always on time...) part, but everything else is on point...

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Stoneface

3-5 points is pretty standard.

Really?!? Man...that's a LOT. If a record has ten songs, and each song is earning its beatmaker 5 points, that's 50 points taken from the artist! Factor in the possibility of an executive producer of some kind taking a point or two on the album, and the artist now gets less than half of the royalties. Oh, and if there are any superstar mixers getting a point or two per song, those numbers look even whackier. I think there's a glitch in the matrix...where did you get those numbers?

I woulda guessed like 1 or 2 (that's if the beatmaker is a super star). Or more likely, none, and the beatmaker (if he's educated and savvy) gets a cut of the publishing.

[mdjice]

No 3 to 5 points is NOT standard at all.
1 to 3 is standard. TIMBO might get around 4.
usually if you have sold some records in the past 3 is pretty common. That's what I'm getting today along with Publishing and the advance .

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by mdjice

No 3 to 5 points is NOT standard at all.
1 to 3 is standard. TIMBO might get around 4.
usually if you have sold some records in the past 3 is pretty common. That's what I'm getting today along with Publishing and the advance .

So, that's three points on a per-song basis? So if you land three songs on an album, are you then getting nine points?

[gorillainthemix]

Originally Posted by voicegenius

+2 thumbsup ... I don't know about the "company will always pay you" (not always on time...) part, but everything else is on point...

thnx, duder. You're right, they don't always pay on time...4-6 weeks is an average, I've had companies pay me within 2, some took over 8 months. But, what I meant to say was that you're not dealing with huge losses due to piracy/downloads and such. It's a solid income and pretty steady when you have a cool network and workflow.
Sometimes they come to you to compose something and it ends up not being used. You still get paid, there's just no extra's in the form of royalties etc.