Vocal Comping - Obvious Examples

[rhizomeman]

After reading the "Vocal Comping with Ken Lewis" I realized that maybe what I was hearing was NOT supposed to be so obvious.

Mariah Carey's We Belong Together - heard it in my car when it came out and immediately heard all the edits per vocal phrase - I thought it was supposed to be obvious, maybe part of some musical concept. Maybe not?

Most recent for me. T.I. with Rhianna - Live Your Life. T.I. sounds like an edit on every phrase. Sort of like they do in tv commercials to get lots of info out in a short amount of time by cutting out breathing.

I don't listen to much hip hop but when I do I consistently hear blatant vocal comps. Anyone else?

[ether88]

blatant vocal comps

yes there are alot of these "works" on the radio.

For alot of pop hop its either really good or crappy, I have heard some artist who do it on purpose song after song, but its not my cup of tea.

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by rhizomeman

After reading the "Vocal Comping with Ken Lewis" I realized that maybe what I was hearing was NOT supposed to be so obvious.

Mariah Carey's We Belong Together - heard it in my car when it came out and immediately heard all the edits per vocal phrase - I thought it was supposed to be obvious, maybe part of some musical concept. Maybe not?

Most recent for me. T.I. with Rhianna - Live Your Life. T.I. sounds like an edit on every phrase. Sort of like they do in tv commercials to get lots of info out in a short amount of time by cutting out breathing.

I don't listen to much hip hop but when I do I consistently hear blatant vocal comps. Anyone else?

I THINK what your referring to is obvious overlaps in vocals, and/or vocal lines that go on so long without a breath that they were obviously cut on separate tracks and put together.

this isnt really what i was talking about, but its a valid example. To me what your referring to is simply stylistic songwriting. If the song flows better like that, then why not do it. the two examples you site were mega hits so stylisitically they work really well.

Songs like this are achieved by having the singer sing every other line, comp those, then fill in the gaps with the missing lines. usually you end up with 2 lead vocal tracks this way, and you clean up the breathes so you dont hear a breath over a singing vocal.

If you've got a rapper or vocalist who's just singing a regular song, no overlaps, and you're taking multiple vocal takes and comping them together, then when your done, it should sound like one performance, all the breathes should sound right, no clicks, pop's, or hiccups in the audio, etc.... I do hear bad edits on records all the time though, which is disappointing since i could make a vocal sound seemless back in the days of 2 inch tape, you damn well should easily be able to do it with pro tools.

[rhizomeman]

Ken,

Yes, that's what I'm hearing - overlaps in vocals. Thanks for explaining that. I'm not saying it sounds bad, just that it was obvious to me when I heard/hear it.

I also think it works for the two pieces I referenced, but maybe more so with rapping.

[voicegenius]

Yeah, like Ken said there are a ton of mega hit records that are recorded that way for a number of reasons... Brandy is notorious for doing it and her records are always dope... Rihanna is another... I think it's good for creativity's sake... Seems to work...

[DaKid]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

I THINK what your referring to is obvious overlaps in vocals, and/or vocal lines that go on so long without a breath that they were obviously cut on separate tracks and put together.

this isnt really what i was talking about, but its a valid example. To me what your referring to is simply stylistic songwriting. If the song flows better like that, then why not do it. the two examples you site were mega hits so stylisitically they work really well.

Songs like this are achieved by having the singer sing every other line, comp those, then fill in the gaps with the missing lines. usually you end up with 2 lead vocal tracks this way, and you clean up the breathes so you dont hear a breath over a singing vocal.

If you've got a rapper or vocalist who's just singing a regular song, no overlaps, and you're taking multiple vocal takes and comping them together, then when your done, it should sound like one performance, all the breathes should sound right, no clicks, pop's, or hiccups in the audio, etc.... I do hear bad edits on records all the time though, which is disappointing since i could make a vocal sound seemless back in the days of 2 inch tape, you damn well should easily be able to do it with pro tools.

Hey Ken,
While using this style of tracking (the 2 lead tracks, every other line), is the concern the artist may not be able to pull off a live performance of the song ever considered during the creative process in the studio? Just wondering.

As always, good to see you're still on the board.

[phillysoulman]

Originally Posted by rhizomeman

Ken,

Yes, that's what I'm hearing - overlaps in vocals. Thanks for explaining that. I'm not saying it sounds bad, just that it was obvious to me when I heard/hear it.

I also think it works for the two pieces I referenced, but maybe more so with rapping.

An early example of the "overlap technique" could be heard in Mariah Carey's "Make It Happen"

I did this recently on the latest Deniece Williams cd where I produced a remake of Luther Vandross "Never Too Much" where Niecey recorded every other line on two seperate tracks with great effectiveness.

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by DaKid

Hey Ken,
While using this style of tracking (the 2 lead tracks, every other line), is the concern the artist may not be able to pull off a live performance of the song ever considered during the creative process in the studio? Just wondering.

As always, good to see you're still on the board.

Well, if the song isnt a hit, nobody is gonna care to hear it live anyway

Rarely would i ever sacrifice production or songwriting simply to ensure that the song could be performed smoothly live.

thats why rappers always have hype men on stage and singers have backing vocalists. They are the support crew so that the artist can take breaths on stage.

[Chris Lago]

I think vocal comping is the best way to achieve vocal perfection.

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

Well, if the song isnt a hit, nobody is gonna care to hear it live anyway

Rarely would i ever sacrifice production or songwriting simply to ensure that the song could be performed smoothly live.

thats why rappers always have hype men on stage and singers have backing vocalists. They are the support crew so that the artist can take breaths on stage.

True!

I have a lot of respect for your work Ken.. But a lot of those types of artists that get their records (over)produced like that suck live!

In my opinion, the types of artists that can pull off a song in one take, will be able to perform it well live!

[J F K]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

True!

I have a lot of respect for your work Ken.. But a lot of those types of artists that get their records (over)produced like that suck live!

In my opinion, the types of artists that can pull off a song in one take, will be able to perform it well live!

How many actors can do an entire scene in one take? There's nothing wrong with editing a film. Takes on songs (incld. instruments) are no different

Plenty of pop acts lip sync their songs live. Alot of them aren't even musicians. This is the world we live in

But one of my favorite "blatant" comps is on Rihanna's S.O.S., when she says "someone" on the hook. The tones change really obv. I don't know if they intended for it or not, but I actually enjoy it.

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Originally Posted by DWJK

How many actors can do an entire scene in one take? There's nothing wrong with editing a film. Takes on songs (incld. instruments) are no different

Plenty of pop acts lip sync their songs live. Alot of them aren't even musicians. This is the world we live in

But one of my favorite "blatant" comps is on Rihanna's S.O.S., when she says "someone" on the hook. The tones change really obv. I don't know if they intended for it or not, but I actually enjoy it.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with it. Plus, it does sound cool some times!

However, I've been disappointed when going to see an artist and half of it is lip synced or just badly performed.. That's all I'm saying.

But do what you gotta do to make your records sound hot!

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with it. Plus, it does sound cool some times!

However, I've been disappointed when going to see an artist and half of it is lip synced or just badly performed.. That's all I'm saying.

But do what you gotta do to make your records sound hot!

i guess kind of point proven, in that the songs were apparently good enough on wax to get you to come see them live

I'm dissapointed on some level with almost everybody live anymore. when you see Coldplay performing to a BUNCH of backing tracks, thats really dissapointing. I mean i'd rather have a couple extra keyboard players tucked near the back of the stage playing the extra parts than to hear them playing from nowhere. but the truth is that 95% of concertgoers never have any clue, nor do they care, that their favorite artists are playing to backing tracks or dont hit every line of every song. We all care because its our jobs to put ish like that under a microscope, but its also our jobs to be able to pull our perspective back from that and say "who am i producing this for, who am i writing this for, what do they want". If the answer is "i'm doing this for myself and if nobody else likes it, thats cool with me", then keep 100% of that performance integrity intact. if its "i actually wanna make a living" than the majortiy of the time, that means doing things in the studio that you cant pull off live without cheating a bit.

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

We all care because its our jobs to put ish like that under a microscope, but its also our jobs to be able to pull our perspective back from that and say "who am i producing this for, who am i writing this for, what do they want". If the answer is "i'm doing this for myself and if nobody else likes it, thats cool with me", then keep 100% of that performance integrity intact. if its "i actually wanna make a living" than the majortiy of the time, that means doing things in the studio that you cant pull off live without cheating a bit.

[rhizomeman]

I guess a relevant comparison already mentioned is with acting. Some actors work well in movies (recordings) and some are more into theatre (live shows). A few do both well. You can do so many things in movies that can not be replicated on Broadway - the same is true for recordings and live shows.

[DaKid]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

Well, if the song isnt a hit, nobody is gonna care to hear it live anyway

Rarely would i ever sacrifice production or songwriting simply to ensure that the song could be performed smoothly live.

thats why rappers always have hype men on stage and singers have backing vocalists. They are the support crew so that the artist can take breaths on stage.

Touche.

I just remember seeing TI recently at some awards show performing "Dead and Gone" I believe, and the performance was pretty bad... I don't think he had a hype man (to my memory) and was struggling to keep up. Then I think of when someone like Biggie performed live it sounded almost exactly like the record!

But I do agree with you below, live performances aren't that great these days.

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Forgot to say:

IMO there is a big difference between using backing tracks with instruments and stuff (like the example with Coldplay) and backing tracks with the lead vocal (lip syncing)!
It simply separates the good from the bad artists! Vocals (and especially lead vocals) are god! If the artist(s) can't perform the freakin lead vocal they/he/her need(s) to get off the stage! Then they really don't deserve to be standing there or making records IMO!
And once I've seen an artist lip sync at a show, that's the last time I'll ever go see that artist or buy the artist's records! But that's just me!

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by ISayItLikeItIs

Forgot to say:

IMO there is a big difference between using backing tracks with instruments and stuff (like the example with Coldplay) and backing tracks with the lead vocal (lip syncing)!
It simply separates the good from the bad artists! Vocals (and especially lead vocals) are god! If the artist(s) can't perform the freakin lead vocal they/he/her need(s) to get off the stage! Then they really don't deserve to be standing there or making records IMO!
And once I've seen an artist lip sync at a show, that's the last time I'll ever go see that artist or buy the artist's records! But that's just me!

i agree and that kind of ish disgusts me as well on a pure "singer" level. However, not a justification, merely an explanation..... Clearly alot of fans either dont care or dont know they are lip syncing. And sadly, i'm sure alot of people go to concerts like Britney or Janet Jackson or ..... fill in name of lip syncing artist..... as much to see the spectacle, the dancing, coreography, etc... as they do to see the music. I mean, teen age girls dont go see the Jonas Brothers because of the music, they go see them because they are dumbstruck in love.

Just like the rest of the music business, its now more than ever the "entertainment" business and not the music business. I actually had a VP of a major label tell me one time in his office "i'd rather sign a mediocre singer who's a great performer than someone who's an amazing singer but not as good a performer". That statement struck me as slightly odd, because i think its easier to teach someone how to be a great performer than it is to teach someone how to be a great singer, tho i'll admit that some people just have "it" as performers and to an extent you cant teach "it" factor, either you have "it" or you dont.

Take Britney, say what you want about her, but since she was 8 years old, she had made huge sacrifices to get to where she's gotten (moving from Louisiana to NYC at 8 years old to be on Broadway, moving to Florida a couple years later to be on TV, etc... alot of people bash her but she's made sacrifices to get where she's gotten that few other people have made, so whether or not you value her as a singer, objectively, if you dont respect her grind, at least in the early years, then you just dont understand what it often takes to make it in this industry, and actually, having said that, i think very few people actually truly know what it takes to make it in this industry. unless you've actually been thru it, put in the work, felt the failures and the successes, its really hard to understand it. So, back to your original point about separating the good from the bad artists, i think it would be more accurate to say separate the good from the mediocre (or bad) singers, but it takes more than a voice to be an artist. Wow, that went off on a strange tangent, but there it is. Now i must get back to my own grind, 3am still mixing. who's still up grindin? -Ken Lewis

[ISayItLikeItIs]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

i agree and that kind of ish disgusts me as well on a pure "singer" level. However, not a justification, merely an explanation..... Clearly alot of fans either dont care or dont know they are lip syncing. And sadly, i'm sure alot of people go to concerts like Britney or Janet Jackson or ..... fill in name of lip syncing artist..... as much to see the spectacle, the dancing, coreography, etc... as they do to see the music. I mean, teen age girls dont go see the Jonas Brothers because of the music, they go see them because they are dumbstruck in love.

Just like the rest of the music business, its now more than ever the "entertainment" business and not the music business. I actually had a VP of a major label tell me one time in his office "i'd rather sign a mediocre singer who's a great performer than someone who's an amazing singer but not as good a performer". That statement struck me as slightly odd, because i think its easier to teach someone how to be a great performer than it is to teach someone how to be a great singer, tho i'll admit that some people just have "it" as performers and to an extent you cant teach "it" factor, either you have "it" or you dont.

Take Britney, say what you want about her, but since she was 8 years old, she had made huge sacrifices to get to where she's gotten (moving from Louisiana to NYC at 8 years old to be on Broadway, moving to Florida a couple years later to be on TV, etc... alot of people bash her but she's made sacrifices to get where she's gotten that few other people have made, so whether or not you value her as a singer, objectively, if you dont respect her grind, at least in the early years, then you just dont understand what it often takes to make it in this industry, and actually, having said that, i think very few people actually truly know what it takes to make it in this industry. unless you've actually been thru it, put in the work, felt the failures and the successes, its really hard to understand it. So, back to your original point about separating the good from the bad artists, i think it would be more accurate to say separate the good from the mediocre (or bad) singers, but it takes more than a voice to be an artist. Wow, that went off on a strange tangent, but there it is. Now i must get back to my own grind, 3am still mixing. who's still up grindin? -Ken Lewis

And I can't argue with anything you just said!
But personally when I (can) chose the artists that I wanna work with, I chose musicianship over their performance skills. And I hope more people in a position to do that will! Together we can change the game!
Now back to grindin!

[OneUp Ent]

Originally Posted by DaKid

Touche.

I just remember seeing TI recently at some awards show performing "Dead and Gone" I believe, and the performance was pretty bad... I don't think he had a hype man (to my memory) and was struggling to keep up. Then I think of when someone like Biggie performed live it sounded almost exactly like the record!

But I do agree with you below, live performances aren't that great these days.

Biggie had a HUGE voice. T.I's voice is small and conversational when he raps. That's not going to translate live too well, so he probably has to go up an octave trying to project.

[DaKid]

Originally Posted by OneUp Ent

Biggie had a HUGE voice. T.I's voice is small and conversational when he raps. That's not going to translate live too well, so he probably has to go up an octave trying to project.

Oh most definitely... I was talking more about him actually getting his lines out due to his record being full of punch-ins. In a live performance, without a hype man, he was just trying to keep up because wherever there was a punch in on the actual record, he'd have to catch his breath back in the live performance.

[bino_5150]

I'm more of a "one take " kinda guy myself. Get it right...

Unless it's like punch in for a point in the song, like a break or something.