The Best Way To Learn

[Storyville]

There are many ways to learn how to track/mix/master. Reading, practicing at home, asking questions, taking classes, etc. Having done all this, I can honestly say, the best learning experiences have been through booking actual studio sessions with pros and taking notes.

Studio sessions are generally not that expensive - somewhere in the range of 400-600$ for a full day for a pro studio. And you'll learn stuff that you would never learn on your own. I highly highly highly recommend to anyone who is getting started to book a few hours with a pro, go to the studio and listen to what she/he does. I know, you can buy a nice mic for 600 bucks... but honestly, the information is more valuable.

I've also learned that for the most part, it is much cheaper to go to a studio and do work than to try buy your own equipment and get the same results.

[ALX Music Group]

I disagree - I think if your serious about engineering, then the best of learning is to get a decent set up, and practice like hell. Of course to supplement that with all the things you mentioned (forums, books, studiotime with a pro) is also important, but the key is practicing on your own. A good engineer will be able to hop on an mbox and mix the hell out of a record, it not about the gear, its about the skill.

With a lot of time and hard work, dedication and ambition you will become a pro yourself. Of course your not going to *poof* get your records to sound like you did them at hitfactory when you did them at home on your small setup - but that doesn't take anything away from the songs that are being made, a good song is a good song, and it might take you 20 hours of mixing to get it to sound right on your small setup, but then the next time it might take 19 hours, then 18 hour..etc On GS and on all the other forums we tend to focus more on the final result, rather than focus on the time it took to get there. The whole fun part of mixing and mastering is playing with sounds getting them to sound good, and getting frustrated and being up late and working hard to find the end result was worth it.

master your set up and then i would suggest trying to intern at a big studio.

[trilblitz]

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

I disagree - I think if your serious about engineering, then the best of learning is to get a decent set up, and practice like hell. Of course to supplement that with all the things you mentioned (forums, books, studiotime with a pro) is also important, but the key is practicing on your own. A good engineer will be able to hop on an mbox and mix the hell out of a record, it not about the gear, its about the skill.

With a lot of time and hard work, dedication and ambition you will become a pro yourself. Of course your not going to *poof* get your records to sound like you did them at hitfactory when you did them at home on your small setup - but that doesn't take anything away from the songs that are being made, a good song is a good song, and it might take you 20 hours of mixing to get it to sound right on your small setup, but then the next time it might take 19 hours, then 18 hour..etc On GS and on all the other forums we tend to focus more on the final result, rather than focus on the time it took to get there. The whole fun part of mixing and mastering is playing with sounds getting them to sound good, and getting frustrated and being up late and working hard to find the end result was worth it.

master your set up and then i would suggest trying to intern at a big studio.

+1 Also add to that working with different producers, singers and rap artist will also broaden your horizons and give you a feel for what other people are looking for and how you may achieve this on your small set up. These type of experiences has well as the above mentioned are priceless.

[bgrotto]

This type of approach is almost (almost, I said!!) completely impossible for anyone wanting to work as a serious and well-rounded professional in a genre other than hip hop. Particularly if that person is interested in engineering as opposed to mixing. It's also a much, MUCH slower way to learn, and a still-slower way to develop a good, solid CV and client list.

How and when do you learn to set up a full band, mic up multiple acoustic and electronic instruments, and juggle all the things that go into an all-out basics tracking session? Your apartment and prosumer rig ain't gonna cut it, and a paying session in a big studio ain't the time to figure it out. The only way to learn, then, is by watching someone else do it again and again, assisting them once you know the ropes, and eventually taking on a client yourself.

As for mixing, you'll be pretty useless mixing live instruments without some kind of engineering experience; the two inform each other, and the best mix engineers tend to be damn good tracking engineers too. Again, you can mix beats on an Mbox all day, and you can get really, really good at it, but that's a very one-dimensional mindset and extremely short-sighted. Odds are, you're not gonna make much of a career outta working in just one style of music, doing just mixing.

And as you're trying to learn all this stuff on a crappy-sounding rig delivering mediocre results, your demo reels and client list are going to suffer until you can really get your shit together and blow some minds, which may never happen since you'll be stuck working on a crappy-sounding rig that's delivering mediocre results. You'll also miss out on a lot of the networking opportunities working in a higher-end, professional facility can offer. Spend a week in a great studio and you'll find yourself in the company of some heavy-hitters; if you're lucky and talented and cool (and ready!), you'll land a gig with one of them.

I'm sorry, but anyone serious about making a CAREER out of working in audio is a fool for simply buying into their own home rig and going for it. That's not to say it can't be done, but it's a much slower process, and it fails far more often than it succeeds.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

I disagree - I think if your serious about engineering, then the best of learning is to get a decent set up, and practice like hell. Of course to supplement that with all the things you mentioned (forums, books, studiotime with a pro) is also important, but the key is practicing on your own. A good engineer will be able to hop on an mbox and mix the hell out of a record, it not about the gear, its about the skill.

With a lot of time and hard work, dedication and ambition you will become a pro yourself. Of course your not going to *poof* get your records to sound like you did them at hitfactory when you did them at home on your small setup - but that doesn't take anything away from the songs that are being made, a good song is a good song, and it might take you 20 hours of mixing to get it to sound right on your small setup, but then the next time it might take 19 hours, then 18 hour..etc On GS and on all the other forums we tend to focus more on the final result, rather than focus on the time it took to get there. The whole fun part of mixing and mastering is playing with sounds getting them to sound good, and getting frustrated and being up late and working hard to find the end result was worth it.

master your set up and then i would suggest trying to intern at a big studio.

[gorillainthemix]

You can learn how to shoot and dribble in your backyard. You learn the game on the court.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by The Dutch Master

You can learn how to shoot and dribble in your backyard. You learn the game on the court.

Very well put.

I'm not knocking a home studio setup. I have one. I have learned a great deal on my own. I've just noticed my own learning curve is much faster when I'm working in pro studios. I always leave feeling like I've learned important information.

This weekend, a friend's band is doing a recording. I am going to pop in on the session, just to takes notes. Another great way of doing things would be to find a band or artist you like, and find out if they are doing any recording sessions at a pro studio. If they are, offer to pay a piece of it just so you can show up and assist. 99% the engineer(s) will be cool with this, and bands can always use the financial assistance. You could probably get away with like a hundred bucks for a full day. That's like taking a class for ten dollars an hour.

[ALX Music Group]

this is a hiphop+rap forum isnt it?! - and if you want to be a good hiphop engineer/producer then you have to grind it out at home, or small studios and learn by doing... Are you going to learn how to mic a drum set - no, but you will learn your mpc4000, are you going to learn how to use an SSL - unlikly, but you will get proficient in PT and learn to get your pres and comps. A whole lot of large studios dont really know how to work with rap - just because you go to a large studio and see a pro working his console and getting tips doesnt make you better - what happened to establishing one's own sound - developing your own style.

and maybe Im being unclear when I say homestudio - Im not talking about an FL studios and a USB Mic.

[sinicalmicmusic]

its a great idea to get a feel for the subject and then grind it out in a pro studio. i remember when i was a rapper (before i became a gear slut) going to a pro studio and end up having the engineer explain why the vocals arent going to sit right in the mix. "you need to bring in the split tracks for the beat not an mp3" boy was that a slap to the face but at the time we were like "but we mixed the beat already"tutt.

since we are in the hiphop forum i will speak in context. my advice is this.

learn the tools you have front and back. building a solid work ethic is important to the rest of your potential career and pushing yourself to master the things you have started will teach you how to train. it took me way too long to figure this out and when i fully understood how to train myself it all started to make sense. building your own recording rig will help you get an idea of how hard the simple stuff can get.

a great way to learn in a pro studio is to start a project for yourself. this project is your baby and you want it to develop the right way so treat it right from the start. if you are a vocalist try recording/mixing/mastering a small project with a specific engineer. when doing so make sure these goals are met....
-let the engineer know what you hope to learn from this project.

-make sure you have more than enough time in each session to cover the intended recording/mixing/mastering (depending on the part of the project you are on) as well as extra time to have him/her explain any questions in depth. a great time to talk about stuff is when you need those lil breaks from the song your working on. also be carefull not to distract from the session too long iv seen how these conversations can carry on

-its important to be prepared 110% before the session. this means you know your stuff front to back and can adapt to any situation no problem. also ask what you could have done better.practicing this can help you help your clients down the line to better prepare them. IMO learning how to teach is extreamly important.

-try to choose you questions wisely. if its something that can wait till you go home to research please do so. i know how it can be in the beginning almost overwhelmed with questions. this tip is subjective because it can be hard to judge whats considered an "important question" so try not to flame me for this...just keep it in mind.


ill try to add more later because i gotta go and i feel this is not complete.

[jikky]

Hands on works for most people, but how many ppl can really get into the big studios. I'm glad I can now!!! But even if you can't, you can get a lot done in a home studio if you have a few rooms. Mix room, tracking room/vocal booth, office. When you get the opp to get into a proper building don't hold back.

I think the most fundamental thing that most ppl miss on the way into learning is that big ass note about gain staging. I beat out ppl on mixing jobs just based on the look of wave forms. Home studio or professional studio, at the end of the day you still gotta NETWORK. Big studios close everyday because they don't do that.

[Synthy08]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

This type of approach is almost (almost, I said!!) completely impossible for anyone wanting to work as a serious and well-rounded professional in a genre other than hip hop. Particularly if that person is interested in engineering as opposed to mixing. It's also a much, MUCH slower way to learn, and a still-slower way to develop a good, solid CV and client list.

How and when do you learn to set up a full band, mic up multiple acoustic and electronic instruments, and juggle all the things that go into an all-out basics tracking session? Your apartment and prosumer rig ain't gonna cut it, and a paying session in a big studio ain't the time to figure it out. The only way to learn, then, is by watching someone else do it again and again, assisting them once you know the ropes, and eventually taking on a client yourself.

As for mixing, you'll be pretty useless mixing live instruments without some kind of engineering experience; the two inform each other, and the best mix engineers tend to be damn good tracking engineers too. Again, you can mix beats on an Mbox all day, and you can get really, really good at it, but that's a very one-dimensional mindset and extremely short-sighted. Odds are, you're not gonna make much of a career outta working in just one style of music, doing just mixing.

And as you're trying to learn all this stuff on a crappy-sounding rig delivering mediocre results, your demo reels and client list are going to suffer until you can really get your shit together and blow some minds, which may never happen since you'll be stuck working on a crappy-sounding rig that's delivering mediocre results. You'll also miss out on a lot of the networking opportunities working in a higher-end, professional facility can offer. Spend a week in a great studio and you'll find yourself in the company of some heavy-hitters; if you're lucky and talented and cool (and ready!), you'll land a gig with one of them.

I'm sorry, but anyone serious about making a CAREER out of working in audio is a fool for simply buying into their own home rig and going for it. That's not to say it can't be done, but it's a much slower process, and it fails far more often than it succeeds.

I swear gearslutz thinks hip hop is the shittiest thing on the planet.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Synthy08

I swear gearslutz thinks hip hop is the shittiest thing on the planet.

What I think about hip hop has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I'm talking about making a CAREER out of engineering. If you want to confine yourself to recording only one style of music - whether it's hip hop or polka - that's perfectly fine as a weekend warrior or hobbyist. My point is, you'll have a hard time making a living if you can't branch out and work in other genres, with other people, in other places. That's like a web designer saying he only wants to work on toy store webpages, or an architect who only designs 19th-century Victorian houses. It's cool to specialize, but it's career suicide to pigeonhole yourself, especially in the earlier stages of what one hopes to become one's career.

Not to mention, learning other skills makes you a better engineer at whatever genre you specialize in. I mix a lot of hip hop, and it informs the way I approach a stoner rock record. It also informs the way I track drums, which in turn informs the way I mix R&B tracks. It goes on and on...

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

this is a hiphop+rap forum isnt it?! - and if you want to be a good hiphop engineer/producer then you have to grind it out at home, or small studios and learn by doing...

Engineering and producing are two very, very different things. Are you talking about an "engineer/producer" (as in, a dude who engineers and produces), as opposed to "engineering" and "producing" (as in, two separate trades for two separate people)? The engineering side is still best learned, IMHO, in a professional studio environment. How successful the individual may be learning the production end at home varies quite a bit from person to person, situation to situation, and studio to studio, but I'd venture a guess that working in a home studio won't fully prepare you for work in a pro room, whereas working in a pro room will more than prepare you for working in a home studio.

I suppose it's a question of the speed and efficiency with which you are trying to learn the craft. Working at home may certainly get you there eventually, but a great studio staffed with talented people working on good records will get you there much, much faster.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

Are you going to learn how to mic a drum set - no, but you will learn your mpc4000, are you going to learn how to use an SSL - unlikly, but you will get proficient in PT and learn to get your pres and comps.

As I said, knowing an MPC4000 and Pro Tools is not sufficient for building a career. What happens if you have a client that blows up, and you're asked to engineer their record, in a large facility. Not knowing how to record unfamiliar instruments, or how to operate the desk, or how to set up a headphone mix will get you fired fast, and you'll have blown your big chance. If you're lucky, there will be a great assistant on hand to save your ass, but the artist, producer, and everyone else involved will take notice and that assistant will land the next gig with your artist (in fact, that's precisely how many of us got our starts).

My whole point is, limiting yourself to sub-professional environments puts a glass ceiling on your own career.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

A whole lot of large studios dont really know how to work with rap - just because you go to a large studio and see a pro working his console and getting tips doesnt make you better - what happened to establishing one's own sound - developing your own style.

Then book a different "large studio"! Problem solved. I can promise you: the large studios that do know how to work with rap will do a better job at serving the client than your home studio, 100% of the time, if for no other reason than simply that the vibe is better, or the lounge is really nice, or having interns to grab you rolling papers is convenient and kinda fun.

I've worked in rooms that were amazing, technically-speaking, with great acoustics and gear, but found my clients requesting inferior rooms simply because they didn't like the color of carpets, or the paint job in the control room. When it comes to engineering (and especially producing), it's not always all about the sonics.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

and maybe Im being unclear when I say homestudio - Im not talking about an FL studios and a USB Mic.

In that case, you're probably talking about a significant investment (correct me I'm wrong), into equipment the user may not know how to properly operate. Hardly a sound business plan. That said, it explains some of those distorted vocals I'm always being asked to try to mix...

[Nfinite2006]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

What I think about hip hop has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I'm talking about making a CAREER out of engineering. If you want to confine yourself to recording only one style of music - whether it's hip hop or polka - that's perfectly fine as a weekend warrior or hobbyist. My point is, you'll have a hard time making a living if you can't branch out and work in other genres, with other people, in other places. That's like a web designer saying he only wants to work on toy store webpages, or an architect who only designs 19th-century Victorian houses. It's cool to specialize, but it's career suicide to pigeonhole yourself, especially in the earlier stages of what one hopes to become one's career.

Not to mention, learning other skills makes you a better engineer at whatever genre you specialize in. I mix a lot of hip hop, and it informs the way I approach a stoner rock record. It also informs the way I track drums, which in turn informs the way I mix R&B tracks. It goes on and on...




Engineering and producing are two very, very different things. Are you talking about an "engineer/producer" (as in, a dude who engineers and produces), as opposed to "engineering" and "producing" (as in, two separate trades for two separate people)? The engineering side is still best learned, IMHO, in a professional studio environment. How successful the individual may be learning the production end at home varies quite a bit from person to person, situation to situation, and studio to studio, but I'd venture a guess that working in a home studio won't fully prepare you for work in a pro room, whereas working in a pro room will more than prepare you for working in a home studio.

I suppose it's a question of the speed and efficiency with which you are trying to learn the craft. Working at home may certainly get you there eventually, but a great studio staffed with talented people working on good records will get you there much, much faster.



As I said, knowing an MPC4000 and Pro Tools is not sufficient for building a career. What happens if you have a client that blows up, and you're asked to engineer their record, in a large facility. Not knowing how to record unfamiliar instruments, or how to operate the desk, or how to set up a headphone mix will get you fired fast, and you'll have blown your big chance. If you're lucky, there will be a great assistant on hand to save your ass, but the artist, producer, and everyone else involved will take notice and that assistant will land the next gig with your artist (in fact, that's precisely how many of us got our starts).

My whole point is, limiting yourself to sub-professional environments puts a glass ceiling on your own career.



Then book a different "large studio"! Problem solved. I can promise you: the large studios that do know how to work with rap will do a better job at serving the client than your home studio, 100% of the time, if for no other reason than simply that the vibe is better, or the lounge is really nice, or having interns to grab you rolling papers is convenient and kinda fun.

I've worked in rooms that were amazing, technically-speaking, with great acoustics and gear, but found my clients requesting inferior rooms simply because they didn't like the color of carpets, or the paint job in the control room. When it comes to engineering (and especially producing), it's not always all about the sonics.



In that case, you're probably talking about a significant investment (correct me I'm wrong), into equipment the user may not know how to properly operate. Hardly a sound business plan. That said, it explains some of those distorted vocals I'm always being asked to try to mix...

great post.

[Brian!]

I would think you would at least want to learn the basics at home or own your own before hitting any kind of studio to learn whatever. In order to be taken seriously in a professional environment, you need to at least learn the basics and one of the best ways to do so is through a minimal home setup.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Brian!

I would think you would at least want to learn the basics at home or own your own before hitting any kind of studio to learn whatever. In order to be taken seriously in a professional environment, you need to at least learn the basics and one of the best ways to do so is through a minimal home setup.

This is 100% true. I myself won't hire on interns without any experience for my studio. But the tools to learn and practice at home are so ubiquitous, it's almost a given that anyone applying for an internship has at least *some* grasp of the most basic of fundamentals.

That said, I don't care if the applicant knows how to do anything beyond identify and plug in mics, when to shut up (or perhaps, more accurately, when to speak), and how to operate a vacuum. And I'm fairly liberal with my interns; a lotta places don't care if the intern knows anything other "keep quiet and clean the toilet". They don't touch any of the gear till they've earned it, so they may very well actually learn the most basic basics on the job. Again, it all depends on the studio and the background of its staff.

In any event, the interns learn a great deal about etiquette (which, IMO, is HUGELY important; probably moreso than sound quality, to be honest). From there, if they're any good, they'll be asked to assist and thus learn the technical and (hopefully) creative end of things. If they're really good, they'll land the hand-me-downs from the head engineers, or perhaps be asked by a visiting producer to engineer the next gig.

And that's when the real learning starts...

[Storyville]

Incidentally, your intern - name escapes me - was totally cool during our tracking. He's welcome to check out some of the mixing session if he feels he'll benefit from it. Skinny dude, torn jean shorts, backwards cap, facial hair.

[ALX Music Group]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

What I think about hip hop has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I'm talking about making a CAREER out of engineering.

Correction - the post is in the hiphop+rap forum, so I have strong assumption that the OP wants to get a career into urban music

Originally Posted by bgrotto

If you want to confine yourself to recording only one style of music - whether it's hip hop or polka - that's perfectly fine as a weekend warrior or hobbyist. My point is, you'll have a hard time making a living if you can't branch out and work in other genres, with other people, in other places.

Your not serious are you?

Originally Posted by bgrotto

That's like a web designer saying he only wants to work on toy store webpages, or an architect who only designs 19th-century Victorian houses. It's cool to specialize, but it's career suicide to pigeonhole yourself, especially in the earlier stages of what one hopes to become one's career.

wow... once again your not serious are you? To speacialize is the key, being gernerally good at a lot of things compared to being really really good at one means you will be recording small local bands for the rest of your life, while you flip pages of SOS and Mix daydreaming...

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Engineering and producing are two very, very different things. Are you talking about an "engineer/producer" (as in, a dude who engineers and produces), as opposed to "engineering" and "producing" (as in, two separate trades for two separate people)

Both actually, and I took into consideration that in hiphop the producer is often the engineer.

Originally Posted by bgrotto

I suppose it's a question of the speed and efficiency with which you are trying to learn the craft. Working at home may certainly get you there eventually, but a great studio staffed with talented people working on good records will get you there much, much faster.

you cant learn greatness, an engineer can "show you tips" but that wont make you great, there are tons of pros here on GS and 10 times more ametures, and the pros share tips everyday, yet I dont hear any of the ametures getting noticably better, or landing bigger customers... of course if you have the oppertunity to go to a pro studio, its a no brainer, do it!! but Its a question of money, - basic math, 10 sessions at 600 dollars is 6000 dollars what kind of "home" setup could you get with that, and what is more profitable in the future - 60 hours with an engineer or better equipment at home.

Originally Posted by bgrotto

As I said, knowing an MPC4000 and Pro Tools is not sufficient for building a career.

no its not - but its a start, which was my point. Go around and ask how many hiphop acts used live drums - very few...

Originally Posted by bgrotto

What happens if you have a client that blows up, and you're asked to engineer their record, in a large facility.

then you pop bottles and celebrate, if they asked you then that means they like your sound. Meanwhile you come on GS and hire an engineer who became a generalist to be your hands, and you tell him what to do.

Originally Posted by bgrotto

My whole point is, limiting yourself to sub-professional environments puts a glass ceiling on your own career. Then book a different "large studio"! Problem solved. I can promise you: the large studios that do know how to work with rap will do a better job at serving the client than your home studio, 100% of the time, if for no other reason than simply that the vibe is better, or the lounge is really nice, or having interns to grab you rolling papers is convenient and kinda fun.

600 dollars a day to enjoy the leather couch and cappacino machine right - meanwhile the engineer isn't doing anything i couldn't do myself, Its just a matter of learning

Originally Posted by bgrotto

In that case, you're probably talking about a significant investment (correct me I'm wrong), into equipment the user may not know how to properly operate. Hardly a sound business plan. That said, it explains some of those distorted vocals I'm always being asked to try to mix...

The user shouldnt just go nut and buy equipment he doenst know how to operate - and that isnt my point, its a slow process, of learning... and also a studio that charges 600 dollars a day, isnt a "great" studio - we're not at hifactory, at best you get a PT HD setup with a couple of nice outboards - with a location that is nice. But if you have to choose between 6k of studio time to "learn from a pro" of 6k worth of gear - what will you choose?

[beat pharmacy]

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

this is a hiphop+rap forum isnt it?! - and if you want to be a good hiphop engineer/producer then you have to grind it out at home, or small studios and learn by doing... Are you going to learn how to mic a drum set - no, but you will learn your mpc4000, are you going to learn how to use an SSL - unlikly, but you will get proficient in PT and learn to get your pres and comps. A whole lot of large studios dont really know how to work with rap - just because you go to a large studio and see a pro working his console and getting tips doesnt make you better - what happened to establishing one's own sound - developing your own style.

and maybe Im being unclear when I say homestudio - Im not talking about an FL studios and a USB Mic.

That has to be the stupidest thing I ever heard LMAO. Please explain to me how learning to use an mpc makes you a better audio engineer? Or how being proficient in PT equals great engineer?

Sure it doesnt hurt to learn things on your own but there is nothing like learning from a pro in a professional studio. Your a beatmaker and cant even be proud of that you have to put the name producer there to make you feel more important. Your a beatmaker you can come to the recording studio to record from your mpc the engineer doesnt need to know shit about programing beats on the mpc thats your job as a beatmaker. His job is to record the performance. I bet most of these engineers you think dont know shit about an mpc can run circles around you on it.

I don't think you realize there is a big difference between a producer and an audio engineer even in hip hop there is a difference. Your a home enthusiast you do this as a hobby or maybe you do it as a profession if you do it can only help in the professional world to work with other professionals in a professional environment.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

Correction - the post is in the hiphop+rap forum, so I have strong assumption that the OP wants to get a career into urban music

The OP happens to be a personal acquaintance (and client), so I can assure you his aspirations reach far beyond working in any one single genre.

That said, I hear where you're coming from, and it's a valid point, but the point I'm trying to get across is at the earliest stages of one's career, it's best to gather as much knowledge in as many styles, techniques, and genres as possible. You never know what you're going to be asked to work on down the line, and the more you learn at the beginning, the better equipped you'll be to handle those surprises.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

Your not serious are you?

Yes, I am serious.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

wow... once again your not serious are you? To speacialize is the key, being gernerally good at a lot of things compared to being really really good at one means you will be recording small local bands for the rest of your life, while you flip pages of SOS and Mix daydreaming...

Tell that to the likes of Rick Ruben, Brendan O'Brien, Andrew Schneider, Tony Maserati, the list goes on...

Specialization is great, but the fact is that most people make their livings doing a bit of everything; it's a much more realistic goal and for a lot of us (myself in particular), it's a lot more rewarding. I record a great deal of small local bands, and I make a good living doing it, and to be honest, that IS my dream. When I land bigger gigs, it's great, but I didn't sign up to become a superstar engineer, I signed up to work on records I love.

I'm not saying people shouldn't shoot for the stars and work to become a mega-star mixer that works only in their favorite genre, I'm just saying that given the INSANE amount of hard work and dedication the job requires, some folks might wanna reconsider their priorities.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

Both actually, and I took into consideration that in hiphop the producer is often the engineer.

I'm not sure this is the case, at least after a certain level. Every "name" rap artist I've ever worked with has had a whole slew of producers and only one, separate, engineer (in those cases, me). Certainly the mixing engineer is almost always someone else.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

you cant learn greatness, an engineer can "show you tips" but that wont make you great, there are tons of pros here on GS and 10 times more ametures, and the pros share tips everyday, yet I dont hear any of the ametures getting noticably better, or landing bigger customers...

To the contrary, I think people learn quite a lot and I've heard some pretty remarkable improvements. That said, you can't learn by reading tips. You hafta watch and, more importantly, LISTEN to someone execute those tips, and after a while, you'll understand how and when they apply to your specific situations.

Again, this can be learned at home (read GS, try the tip, repeat till you get it), but I believe it's much faster to watch someone do it, in a great room, on great gear, with great monitoring, and then have the opportunity to ask them questions about their approach as they're working.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

of course if you have the oppertunity to go to a pro studio, its a no brainer, do it!! but Its a question of money, - basic math, 10 sessions at 600 dollars is 6000 dollars what kind of "home" setup could you get with that, and what is more profitable in the future - 60 hours with an engineer or better equipment at home.

$6k worth of gear is useless if you can't get the most out of it. For me, a quality recording is worth much more than the gear I could have bought for the same money. You only get one first impression, and a sloppy recording wreaking of amateurism ain't much of a first impression.

If you're a musician interested in engineering (like the OP), you'll get far more out of a day or three in the studio than you will outta blowing $1500 on gear. The music will sound better, you'll learn more about the craft, and you'll have a shit load of fun (even a tightass like Story was able to mellow out and enjoy our time together I kid! I kid!).

A $6k home setup would barely offer up enough quality to justify charging clients. At least, serious clients who are familiar with the recording process (and higher-end studios).

I'd frankly suggest saving that $6k altogether, finding an internship, and living off the saved dough for as long as possible.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

no its not - but its a start, which was my point. Go around and ask how many hiphop acts used live drums - very few...

Incidentally, the OP's group uses live drums, but it's about a lot more than just recording a drum kit. Learning to record drums teaches you volumes about phase relationships, microphone placement, and ambience capture that informs every other aspect of your skill (or lack thereof) as a tracking engineer, and to some degree, as a mixing engineer.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

then you pop bottles and celebrate, if they asked you then that means they like your sound. Meanwhile you come on GS and hire an engineer who became a generalist to be your hands, and you tell him what to do.

That makes you a producer, not an engineer.

Not to mention, you may not have any say in additional hires (you probably don't).

Not to mention, the GS engineer who became the generalist might just land your job next time around. Like I said, that's how a lot of us get our foot in the door. Do you really wanna tell the producer, "Hey, thanks for hiring me to engineer, but I don't really know what I'm doing, so I'm just gonna hire this other guy to be my hands"?

Oh, and last but not least, if you are allowed to hire in an engineer who knows how to do the job, guess who's pay it comes out of...? And if you're hired as an engineer, you're gonna make a day rate (no points, no extras, none of that crap), which is probably about what you're gonna need to pay the "GS generalist engineer" who actually knows how to do the job, which means you're left with nothin'. Not a good business plan.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

600 dollars a day to enjoy the leather couch and cappacino machine right - meanwhile the engineer isn't doing anything i couldn't do myself, Its just a matter of learning

Well, like I said, all things being equal on the engineering front, the clients are gonna enjoy that leather couch and cappuccino machine. The thing is, I suspect for most people, the pro engineer in the pro facility is doing things the home guys actually COULDN'T do themselves. You could very well be an exceptional talent, and capable of delivering insanely good results from your own personal rig. But that's not the norm, and it's certainly not something that happens without years of experience, so once again, getting back to the idea of the beginner who is trying to learn the ropes, the pro studio is gonna be much faster and much more involved.

Anyway, I just realized a very glaring flaw in this discussion: you're talking about your clients. The problem is, newbies don't have clients, so they're stuck working on their own stuff. THAT puts them at a huge disadvantage; relating to clients is 80% (or more!) of the game, and can't be learned mixing your own tunes in your bedroom.

Originally Posted by ALX Music Group

The user shouldnt just go nut and buy equipment he doenst know how to operate - and that isnt my point, its a slow process, of learning... and also a studio that charges 600 dollars a day, isnt a "great" studio - we're not at hifactory, at best you get a PT HD setup with a couple of nice outboards - with a location that is nice. But if you have to choose between 6k of studio time to "learn from a pro" of 6k worth of gear - what will you choose?

My studio charges $550, including engineering. Our outboard list is vast, we have a desk, and 3000 sq feet of great acoustics. My buddy has a Neve studio for about $600/day, with a collection of vintage outboard that would melt your face (not to mention a couple of the best engineers in the area working the place). I've booked world-renowned, $1200/day rooms for half that price...in other words cost isn't really the determining factor in studio quality.

[orangeoctane]

Nobody has mentioned booking time in a legit mastering facility.

I learned a TON by sitting in on a session for a client's album that I mixed. The dude took the time to talk to me about what he was hearing in my mixes, how I might make some improvements, what I was already doing well and what exactly he had to do to each mix to make it part of the album. This from a guy who listens to and processes hundreds of mixes a year for major label artists.

And hearing your mixes on $100,000 set of mastering monitors is almost worth the price of admission alone.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by orangeoctane

Nobody has mentioned booking time in a legit mastering facility.

I learned a TON by sitting in on a session for a client's album that I mixed. The dude took the time to talk to me about what he was hearing in my mixes, how I might make some improvements, what I was already doing well and what exactly he had to do to each mix to make it part of the album. This from a guy who listens to and processes hundreds of mixes a year for major label artists.

And hearing your mixes on $100,000 set of mastering monitors is almost worth the price of admission alone.

+1thumbsup

Great point!

[MYAMS]

Originally Posted by orangeoctane

Nobody has mentioned booking time in a legit mastering facility.

I learned a TON by sitting in on a session for a client's album that I mixed. The dude took the time to talk to me about what he was hearing in my mixes, how I might make some improvements, what I was already doing well and what exactly he had to do to each mix to make it part of the album. This from a guy who listens to and processes hundreds of mixes a year for major label artists.

And hearing your mixes on $100,000 set of mastering monitors is almost worth the price of admission alone.

what mastering speakers are 100k? Im curious.

[voicegenius]

He had to mean $10,000...

[MYAMS]

Originally Posted by voicegenius

He had to mean $10,000...

maybe not... there is home stereos that cost that much and more

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by orangeoctane

Nobody has mentioned booking time in a legit mastering facility.

I learned a TON by sitting in on a session for a client's album that I mixed. The dude took the time to talk to me about what he was hearing in my mixes, how I might make some improvements, what I was already doing well and what exactly he had to do to each mix to make it part of the album. This from a guy who listens to and processes hundreds of mixes a year for major label artists.

And hearing your mixes on $100,000 set of mastering monitors is almost worth the price of admission alone.

+2.

I've learned more about mixing sitting in on mastering sessions than I have about mastering! Ironic, but makes sense. The mastering engineer is really listening to the overall picture, something that we see differently in the mixing phase. Stylistically, I learned to mix outside-in from watching/doing mastering. This is where I learned not to over mix, and how to supply power to different frequency zones, and improved my sense of masking frequencies and dynamics.

My plan this summer, I'm lending my mics and preamps to PSM, and sitting in on as many sessions as I can. Phillysoul said I can assist on some sessions, another studio has said the same. I'm talking to a few more. I'm saving up some extra cash and borrowing a bit from my sis so I can attend Bgrotto's mix session for my music. I plan to be in a studio during a tracking/mixing session twice a week. I guarantee that by the end of the summer I'll be a total mutha ****a.

I do agree with ALX on one point though. A home studio has definitely helped me prepare myself to get involved in larger studios. That in conjunction with a LOT of reading, and a good number of live sound gigs.

Basically, I've been doing home studio stuff for almost eight years. Now, I didn't really get going until about two years ago - but it's been a long time running. I'm ready to step out of the "Beginner" category, and the only real way to do that is to step out of a beginner studio.

I am talking about being an engineer here by the by. I love rapping - and I hope to have a solid run with my band - sell albums and such. But honestly I enjoy being behind the boards as much as on the stage, and I want to be great at both. So this post is specifically in regards to engineering.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by MYAMS

maybe not... there is home stereos that cost that much and more

Linn Komri. $47,060/pair.
Magico M5. $89,000/pair
Rockport Altair. $94,500/Pr.
Dynaudio Evidence Master. $100,000/pair.
Magico Model 6. $160,000/pair
Rockport Arrakis. $165,000/pair
GOLDMUND Epilogue Full System. $268,300
KHARMA Grand Exquisite. $300,000/pair.
Magico Ultimate II w/passive crossover & active bass module. $394,000/pair
CAT’s MBX. $560,000/pair.

[orangeoctane]

Originally Posted by MYAMS

what mastering speakers are 100k? Im curious.

Hot House makes a system that's $95,000. ADAM makes one for $30,000 if you are the "thrifty" type I guess? Westlake makes a set of monitors that run nearly $200,000 and in the audiophile markets, it's not hard to find speakers that are $250,000 and up. Some mastering facilities actually prefer these audiophile systems.

[orangeoctane]

Originally Posted by voicegenius

He had to mean $10,000...

Man, I *wish* these systems were that affordable!

[voicegenius]

Originally Posted by Storyville

Linn Komri. $47,060/pair.
Magico M5. $89,000/pair
Rockport Altair. $94,500/Pr.
Dynaudio Evidence Master. $100,000/pair.
Magico Model 6. $160,000/pair
Rockport Arrakis. $165,000/pair
GOLDMUND Epilogue Full System. $268,300
KHARMA Grand Exquisite. $300,000/pair.
Magico Ultimate II w/passive crossover & active bass module. $394,000/pair
CAT’s MBX. $560,000/pair.

Jesus, why so cheap?

[Storyville]

Because: They are also refrigerators.

[E.rOk.stA]

Originally Posted by Storyville

Because: They are also refrigerators.

I appreciate you, bro. You too, Benny.

About a year ago, I too realized that it was gonna be a long time before I was gonna get to hear all the gear in action that is referenced here on GS and also wondered how my mixing skills would hold up under scrutiny. I went through the phonebook and called quite a few local studio's. I figured I would take the most recent and best CD I had just mixed & "mastered" and have the most experienced engineer there critique it, as well as tracking some stuff that I had already done myself, just to hear the difference (if any).

There was one studio in particular where the owner/head ME and I seemed to gel. I went down and had a tour. I decided to just pay as if I was booking the studio to track stuff but have a listening session in the control room. Even though I have read everything I could on the internet and in books, it still didn't compare (I still think it is important to study up on these things though).

Anyways, I told him to be brutal. I really want to be good and if that means having my pride stomped on to do so, the so be it. Long story short, that session has been followed by more and I have to say that I've learned so much from them. What's really fresh is when you see them doing something that you figured out on your own, and weren't sure if anyone else did that. It just confirms that you're on the right track.

Storyville, I wish you the best. It seems that your head is on straight and I'm encouraged by your posts.

Peace.

And BTW, I'd be down to throw some $$ to come out to Benny's spot with you just for fun.