Vocal Comping with Ken Lewis

[voicegenius]

This is an old blog, but for people/noobies who would like to know his approach, this is great. Also, some other great vocal techniques as well... Great blog Ken!

Music Mixing Blog - Ken Lewis News, Thoughts and Advice for Musicians

[Ray Sr.]

Nice read man.

[viewingstuff]

thank you

[Keyflo]

wow im def getting my engineer up on this, we always just tell the artist to record about 4-5 takes and we take the best one...Vocal comping seems like a long and tedious task for a engineer..

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by voicegenius

This is an old blog, but for people/noobies who would like to know his approach, this is great. Also, some other great vocal techniques as well... Great blog Ken!

Music Mixing Blog - Ken Lewis News, Thoughts and Advice for Musicians

Wow, very nice to see this one resurrected!!! I spent 15 hours today in a vocal production session (leads and backs on 2 songs recorded, comp'd, cleaned up - 2 singers). I can absolutely say without a shadow of a doubt that the vocals came out spectacular today, because i took a bunch of takes, guided the vocalists to the performances i wanted out of them, pushed them further, comp'd, then had them beat the comp's and pushed them even further. At the end of the day, the songs sound every bit a major label performance, radio ready, from singers who've never come close before.
You know, alot of people think you just get behind the mic, do a take or two and thats your performance, then they wonder why their stuff doesnt quite stand up to the radio. Its always the producers fault or the mixers fault. Its never THEIR fault for not spending 2 days on vocals instead of two hours. Making great records often takes ALOT of time, alot of pushing yourself or your artist beyond what they thought they could do, then trying to top that. But thats what i do on most of the records i make and the results speak for themselves :-)

[Ray Sr.]

Thanks Ken,
I'm gonna try that next time. She (female singer) might hate me after that.

What do you do when they get annoyed?

[motamouth]

im having a problem with this. im currently working on a 6 minute long song, which is basically just 1 long verse. ino not ur typical record at all. and alot here will not even take me serious now that ive said that. but well i tried cutting it up and using parts from different takes. but it just doesnt sound right at all. like the tone of the takes seems a bit different. well i can always tell where the take was cut. which sucks. how can i get it to sound a little more fitting?!

[Heezzi]

Honesty, rerecord it. Better yet, nobody is going to listen to a 6min long, one verse song. I don't care from if it was from Tupac himself. They going to listen once and not again.


Then again....... here's what you do, break the song up into about 6 parts...

Record each part one by one and punch in on the transitions between each part. If the artist is good enough and the engineer is good enough, the punches will work.


- Heezzi

[Chris Lago]

I probably have 40 tracks of vocals when I record

[wreckd]

Originally Posted by Ray Sr.

Thanks Ken,
I'm gonna try that next time. She (female singer) might hate me after that.

What do you do when they get annoyed?

I remember reading Ken's blog post a few years back, I'm still trying to convince artists to spend the time doing the takes. Though I'm still working my way up the food chain with who I work with. I imagine professional musicians or those who are mentored by someone in the business get it, and if not its them not you that is the problem.

Though I would like to know, what do you do when the artist says "Its fake/manfactured if we do it like that!" . When we all know full well very few people can deliver brilliance in a few takes.

[Justin RockWell]

Good read

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by wreckd

Though I would like to know, what do you do when the artist says "Its fake/manfactured if we do it like that!" . When we all know full well very few people can deliver brilliance in a few takes.

you say "If you dont have a recording that truly catches people and makes them want to listen over and over again, why on earth would they want to come see you perform live anyway?"

or

"Look, this is the way alot of major label records are made. If you want to compete on that level, this is what you do. if you want to stay amateur and sound amateur, keep doing what your doing".

From my own perspective, I do not take commercial bookings at my studio from people who just wanna come in and book time to do whatever, so fortunately, i dont have the dilemma's of people looking at the clock and worrying if comping vocals is going to cost them too much money.

Word of advice to young producers. If you are producing something, quote a flat fee for your services. Make sure its a flat fee you are willing to live with. Once the business is settled, do everything under the sun in your power to make the best god damn record you can possibly make. your career might depend upon it, and even if it doesnt, the experience you gain practicing on songs that you think may not go big, but that you still put your heart and soul into as a producer, all of that will prepare you for that opportunity when it DOES matter. You sure as hell dont want your first big potential break to be the first time you ever tried to comp vocals. Like anything else, you get better at it the more you do it.

-Ken Lewis

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by Keyflo

wow im def getting my engineer up on this, we always just tell the artist to record about 4-5 takes and we take the best one...Vocal comping seems like a long and tedious task for a engineer..

if making great records was easy, everybody would do it. alot of the difference between making a good (or mediocre) record, or making a great record, is all of the tedious thankless grueling work that most people never put in and some people do. My clients dont hire me because i'm too lazy to comp vocals or i dont command enough respect from an artist to get them to give me as many takes as i ask them for. alot of it comes down to what kind of producer / artist / engineer etc... that you want to be. I made my decision on that a very long time ago.

[AnAverageJoe]

Originally Posted by Ken Lewis

you say "If you dont have a recording that truly catches people and makes them want to listen over and over again, why on earth would they want to come see you perform live anyway?"

or

"Look, this is the way alot of major label records are made. If you want to compete on that level, this is what you do. if you want to stay amateur and sound amateur, keep doing what your doing".

From my own perspective, I do not take commercial bookings at my studio from people who just wanna come in and book time to do whatever, so fortunately, i dont have the dilemma's of people looking at the clock and worrying if comping vocals is going to cost them too much money.

Word of advice to young producers. If you are producing something, quote a flat fee for your services. Make sure its a flat fee you are willing to live with. Once the business is settled, do everything under the sun in your power to make the best god damn record you can possibly make. your career might depend upon it, and even if it doesnt, the experience you gain practicing on songs that you think may not go big, but that you still put your heart and soul into as a producer, all of that will prepare you for that opportunity when it DOES matter. You sure as hell dont want your first big potential break to be the first time you ever tried to comp vocals. Like anything else, you get better at it the more you do it.

-Ken Lewis

WOW Enough said!!!! thumbsup I remember that blog too! LOL


Oh One more thing Ken, Is there anything else we should know about vocal Production?

[Ken Lewis]

Originally Posted by AnAverageJoe

Oh One more thing Ken, Is there anything else we should know about vocal Production?

I'm sure there's ALOT more you should know about vocal production, but honestly, the only way your truly going to learn it is to start producing vocals, and/or go assist or intern for someone who's good at producing vocals. you arent gonna learn it on GS.

[AnAverageJoe]

In that case I'm signing off Gearslutz right now! A cool thing I've done back in the day when I was a 17(I'm 19 now) I used to sit and watch Making the band every season and observe the guys and girls on tv produce a record and then I would go and try to produce my sister singing, but that didn't work very well... Let's just say she needs vocal lessons Thanks Ken

[Ray Sr.]

Hey Ken,
Do you comp doubled vocals? I have Doubles & Harmonies, do you comp those too or leave the imperfections. They sound good but they are not perfectly in line with the lead vocals. I feel that if I line them up perfectly with the lead vocals they may sound too perfect. Haven't tried it yet though. I'd hate to waste the hours when I have an entire album to finish.

You advice would be appreciated.

Oh, forgot to mention that I'm working on the chorus. I've got like 8 good takes I'm working with.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Ray Sr.

Hey Ken,
Do you comp doubled vocals? I have Doubles & Harmonies, do you comp those too or leave the imperfections. They sound good but they are not perfectly in line with the lead vocals. I feel that if I line them up perfectly with the lead vocals they may sound too perfect. Haven't tried it yet though. I'd hate to waste the hours when I have an entire album to finish.

You advice would be appreciated.

I'm not Ken, but generally if you want tidy, not too obvious doubles they kind of have to sit properly. A better way than comp them is to get the singer to go through doing a line or a few at a time, as they're then likely to "hit it" right on the original lead. Not so likely, whoever you're recording, if you do whole takes for doubles and then comp. Plus, by the time you've gone through the song it's done. Sometimes it can be nice if a tail of the double strays into a different but nice place. All in all I reckon your question is one of judgement and choice what you want to hear/achieve.......not sure if Ken can choose that for you.

[Ray Sr.]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

I'm not Ken, but generally if you want tidy, not too obvious doubles they kind of have to sit properly. A better way than comp them is to get the singer to go through doing a line or a few at a time, as they're then likely to "hit it" right on the original lead. Not so likely, whoever you're recording, if you do whole takes for doubles and then comp. Plus, by the time you've gone through the song it's done. Sometimes it can be nice if a tail of the double strays into a different but nice place. All in all I reckon your question is one of judgement and choice what you want to hear/achieve.......not sure if Ken can choose that for you.

I don't really like to punch in. Never have. well, unless its for an effect. This is a jazzy type of tune. I want it to sound natural yet polished for air play.

[Franco]

Good read! I honestly didn't know about this process as I don't work on sessions that have singers much; only mix rap vocals and most of the artists I deal with have the mentality that if you can't nail your verses down in one shot, then you're really not an MC. The sessions that I get have one or two leads, one or two backup (accent) tracks and an adlib track.

The interesting thing I have noticed in "pop" music today (R&B included) is that the mixes sound too polished. I'm a big fan of oldies and old R&B and for example, you hear songs by The Shirelles and knowing that those old recordings were done in one take kind of makes me feel sad that these days you have to "frankenstein" tons of vocal takes from singers to come up with the final cut; this sort of helps explain to me why most things I hear these days don't sound as natural as some of the older recordings.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Ray Sr.

I don't really like to punch in. Never have. well, unless its for an effect. This is a jazzy type of tune. I want it to sound natural yet polished for air play.

A bit more work in the moment, but MUCH quicker than comping......and I don't really see how punching for doubles would have anything to do with what type of tune it is. Just the easiest way to give a singer a chance to hit them tight, so you don't have to repair what you can afterwards for hours. I would think, the naturalness is in the lead and the tighter the double the less it takes away from this. Unless you want the "2 singers" effect, in which case we're back to creative choices......yours.

[Ray Sr.]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

and I don't really see how punching for doubles would have anything to do with what type of tune it is.

I was refering to the Lead Vocals. I should have specified but I tend to type as I think.

For the Chorus what I usually do is get a couple of good takes line them up then put the other takes underneath not really worrying about lining them up with the main takes. I think that sounds natural because they are usually close enough but I'm trying to step up my game. I wanna make way into the Pro ranks.

[RTR]

YOu have got to be kidding me.....what ever happed to talent? like being able to do the wole song in one pass....guess that went out with learning to PLAY music instead of sample it!

[Ray Sr.]

what ever happed to talent? like being able to do the wole song in one pass

I don't think its just a talent thing... I just think that the bar has been raised & everything has to be as perfect as digital is. My opinion. I bet some old school folks have plenty to say about that.

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by AnAverageJoe

In that case I'm signing off Gearslutz right now! A cool thing I've done back in the day when I was a 17(I'm 19 now) I used to sit and watch Making the band every season and observe the guys and girls on tv produce a record and then I would go and try to produce my sister singing, but that didn't work very well... Let's just say she needs vocal lessons Thanks Ken

Watching Making The Band is a lot like watching a Ryan Leslie youtube video. It's good entertainment, but there is not much to learn from what you can see... a lot more work goes on behind what they show you with edited video takes.

[PettyCash]

Just finished checking out that blog... very good read. When I first got a feel for engineering and started truly understanding what making better music was all about, this was how I wanted to get lead vocals done. The problem I had with that though was no one I was working with at the time wanted to do things that way. It was a hassle and a half to even get some ppl to want to punch something in. It just always seemed logical to me that as a producer/engineer I could get a better sounding lead vocal if I got the artist to give ME all that I was looking for so I could get creative and just put it all together afterwards before mixing. Anyone unwilling to really put in the time to make the best music they can really doesn't have a passion for MAKING music.

Unless you are recording an angel or someone with superhuman singing talent, vocal comping is the best way to go.

[AnAverageJoe]

Originally Posted by PettyCash

Anyone unwilling to really put in the time to make the best music they can really doesn't have a passion for MAKING music.

Very True!

[Franco]

Originally Posted by PettyCash

It just always seemed logical to me that as a producer/engineer I could get a better sounding lead vocal if I got the artist to give ME all that I was looking for so I could get creative and just put it all together afterwards before mixing. Anyone unwilling to really put in the time to make the best music they can really doesn't have a passion for MAKING music.

Unless you are recording an angel or someone with superhuman singing talent, vocal comping is the best way to go.

Hm, I respectfully disagree it has anything to do with passion for "making" music from the standpoint of an engineer. First off, I know this is the way the industry works these days and "comp'ing" is a typical process that happens with the biggest names out there today, what I find interesting is that at the end you talk about "passion for making music."

You're not the one making the music, you're doctoring it. I completely agree with your statement about being passionate with music, but only if it's coming from the artists who sing and play it. James Brown used to tax his players if they got their chops down slightly off, George Martin actually played on many Beatles records, but when you're talking about taking takes and re-arranging them, you're not making music; you're re-arranging the music to suit your vision, and sure, maybe you took a line here and there and made the verse sound better, and if you did your job well, the listener can't even tell.

But that's it - that's all you're doing with this. You're taking the "best" parts of a performance and stitching them together; you're hiding the artists' mistakes. As a producer however, what are you doing with the artist in the studio to get them to "legend" status, where they can nail it in one or two takes?

[Ray Sr.]

Sometimes I'll also comp a double track against the lead vocal in similar fashion, if i think the song can benefit from a double track. This is easier than trying to have the singer go back in and double the comp vocal. ( from the article)

Can't believe I missed this. I bet I was thinking about everything while I was reading. That's why I always read again.

I'm guessing I should try to comp the chorus & layers of harmonies within the chorus. Anybody?

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Franco

Hm, I respectfully disagree it has anything to do with passion for "making" music from the standpoint of an engineer. First off, I know this is the way the industry works these days and "comp'ing" is a typical process that happens with the biggest names out there today, what I find interesting is that at the end you talk about "passion for making music."

You're not the one making the music, you're doctoring it. I completely agree with your statement about being passionate with music, but only if it's coming from the artists who sing and play it. James Brown used to tax his players if they got their chops down slightly off, George Martin actually played on many Beatles records, but when you're talking about taking takes and re-arranging them, you're not making music; you're re-arranging the music to suit your vision, and sure, maybe you took a line here and there and made the verse sound better, and if you did your job well, the listener can't even tell.

But that's it - that's all you're doing with this. You're taking the "best" parts of a performance and stitching them together; you're hiding the artists' mistakes. As a producer however, what are you doing with the artist in the studio to get them to "legend" status, where they can nail it in one or two takes?

Sorry, felt to pipe in here......I believe he meant it as in passion translated into working it however needed to get the best/strongest possible musical result out of the session. Whether comping or trying to find the context where the artist is most effective through whatever else, headphone balance, handheld mic, probably some of all of the above, whatever it takes to get the result. Arguably what the producer is there for. Get a record made that sounds confident and focused. Whether the artist is a flawless performer (lol....few) or not. Not really the producers job to worry about the longterm 'legend' status ......right here and now you're meant to see to a convincing record being the result, and it sometimes will take more passion to find the energy to do all that's necessary to achieve that.

The only difference between not so great performers and 'legend' would be that in one case you comp 'what works' to make it all 'work' and often quite hard comping/small chunks, in the other you choose from stuff that really all 'works', just differently, so you pick the direction of the dynamic development probably taking longer chunks from just a couple or few tracks.

And it's not just hiding the artists mistakes and 'making a verse sound better', as "sounds better' is about creating a focused flow/sense in the song as a whole from a to b, which the artist won't necessarily see from inside the performance bubble, hence you've been hired to produce.

Not making music, maybe, but still takes the same passion.